Anti Conspiracy Theories #6 wakey, wakey!

[OwlAtTheMoon]

Awful, especially on twitter, the relentless swooping in on every death, never mind whether young, middle-aged or old, and attributing it to the vaccine with no evidence. And getting chippy when someone mentions a proven cause of death for one of the poor deceased that goes against a mass-killing vaccine narrative...
On a lighter note, wishing you all a happy *Easter/*Chocolate indulgence day (*delete as appropriate) xx

 

[caroleffinbaskin]

Awful, especially on twitter, the relentless swooping in on every death, never mind whether young, middle-aged or old, and attributing it to the vaccine with no evidence. And getting chippy when someone mentions a proven cause of death for one of the poor deceased that goes against a mass-killing vaccine narrative...
On a lighter note, wishing you all a happy *Easter/*Chocolate indulgence day (*delete as appropriate) xx

The answer should always be Margarita - regardless of the question

 

[Ensay]

Awful, especially on twitter, the relentless swooping in on every death, never mind whether young, middle-aged or old, and attributing it to the vaccine with no evidence. And getting chippy when someone mentions a proven cause of death for one of the poor deceased that goes against a mass-killing vaccine narrative...
On a lighter note, wishing you all a happy *Easter/*Chocolate indulgence day (*delete as appropriate) xx

It feels like a case of wanting to be right. They put so much time and effort into their viewpoint, so when they hear of a death, their mind jumps to "must have been the vaccine" because they think it adds weight to their argument.

Waiting to hear more feels like the sensible and respectful thing to do.

I've seen some bizarre scenarios where those who are against covid vaccines will think it's fine to immediately speculate that the vaccine caused a death the day they learn of said death, but if someone gives the actual reason for the death much later (ie by the time a post mortem has been done and it turns out not to be vaccine related), they think that's disrespectful! It just highlights their warped logic.

 

[Deeznutslol]

It feels like a case of wanting to be right. They put so much time and effort into their viewpoint, so when they hear of a death, their mind jumps to "must have been the vaccine" because they think it adds weight to their argument.

Waiting to hear more feels like the sensible and respectful thing to do.

I've seen some bizarre scenarios where those who are against covid vaccines will think it's fine to immediately speculate that the vaccine caused a death the day they learn of said death, but if someone gives the actual reason for the death much later (ie by the time a post mortem has been done and it turns out not to be vaccine related), they think that's disrespectful! It just highlights their warped logic.

It 100% is a case of wanting to be right.
You can tell because of how angry they get when they’re proven to be wrong , the personal insults start flying and it becomes clear that the only thing they cared about was trying to find another piece of ‘evidence’ to support their wack agenda.
A lot of them just really despise the truth, which is that they were wrong about the vaccine. It hasn’t caused the deaths of billions of people across the world that they predicted (which is something they should be happy about, no?), so they need to just take the L and move on at this point lmao.

 

[Ensay]

It 100% is a case of wanting to be right.
You can tell because of how angry they get when they’re proven to be wrong , the personal insults start flying and it becomes clear that the only thing they cared about was trying to find another piece of ‘evidence’ to support their wack agenda.
A lot of them just really despise the truth, which is that they were wrong about the vaccine. It hasn’t caused the deaths of billions of people across the world that they predicted (which is something they should be happy about, no?), so they need to just take the L and move on at this point lmao.

Yes exactly. I've never said the vaccine was 100% safe, because unfortunately no medicine ever is. There will always be side effects to any medication and some of those will be more severe than others.

But I maintain those reactions are very rare and weren't enough of a reason not to vaccinate anyone. If someone is going to take that stance, then we might as well ban every single type of medication forever.

Like you say, there haven't been massive amounts of deaths that they predicted (and they can say "give it time" but it's been well over two years since the first vaccines were administered - how long should it take?) and not all of the deaths were vaccine related; some were related to covid itself, not the vaccine.

They won't give any ground or even discuss it, though. They'll just be rude or sarky. I've seen it so many times over the last couple of years that it's possible to read them like a book!

 

[Deeznutslol]

Yes exactly. I've never said the vaccine was 100% safe, because unfortunately no medicine ever is. There will always be side effects to any medication and some of those will be more severe than others.

But I maintain those reactions are very rare and weren't enough of a reason not to vaccinate anyone. If someone is going to take that stance, then we might as well ban every single type of medication forever.

Like you say, there haven't been massive amounts of deaths that they predicted (and they can say "give it time" but it's been well over two years since the first vaccines were administered - how long should it take?) and not all of the deaths were vaccine related; some were related to covid itself, not the vaccine.

They won't give any ground or even discuss it, though. They'll just be rude or sarky. I've seen it so many times over the last couple of years that it's possible to read them like a book!

No one has ever claimed that any medication or any substance can be taken without the risk of adverse reactions. Adverse reactions will ALWAYS happen, it’s just another one of their illogical straw man arguments that they like to create so that they can argue against it and say “see! Adverse reactions actually do happen, so I’m right” even though literally no pharmaceutical company or scientist has ever claimed that they wouldn’t happen.
I commend those who still try to reason with these types, but there’s no point in even trying to imo. It’s like trying to debate with a religious person who is completely goverened by fear (like many CTists also are) anf is just utterly convinced that unless you worship their god in the exact same way that they do, you’re going to burn in hell for eternity. You can’t reason or debate with anyone who is fundamentally unreasonable and closed minded.

If they came to me tomorrow and provided me with reliable data and evidence to back up their anti-vax theories, which unequivocally showed that vaccines against covid were killing huge numbers of people, I would genuinely switch up in a heartbeat and believe them .

 

[Prefrontalmedialcortex]

I do not get this way of thinking. 🫥 They think attributing every death to the vaccine or speculating is okay…just because and until post-mortem reports say otherwise they’ll continue to do. When post-mortem reports conclude it was NOT the vaccine, they are adamant it was the vaccine. 🫨

I’m still waiting for the truth to come out and the millions of people to drop dead from the vaccine. What really gets me is that we already know there are side effects as there is with most things… this is acknowledged but they make out that people brush over this or think it is a CT, yet they are the one who never acknowledge the many lives the vaccines have saved and how far we have come since the vaccine rollout.

 

[Deeznutslol]

I do not get this way of thinking. 🫥 They think attributing every death to the vaccine or speculating is okay…just because and until post-mortem reports say otherwise they’ll continue to do. When post-mortem reports conclude it was NOT the vaccine, they are adamant it was the vaccine. 🫨

I’m still waiting for the truth to come out and the millions of people to drop dead from the vaccine. What really gets me is that we already know there are side effects as there is with most things… this is acknowledged but they make out that people brush over this or think it is a CT, yet they are the one who never acknowledge the many lives the vaccines have saved and how far we have come since the vaccine rollout.

Yeah this is why I don’t argue with them, some people are literally just too far gone and too circular in their beliefs, they’re not interested in a debate or a discussion. I think if you’ve been making these claims about the vaccine for years, it’s easier to just carry on screeching into the abyss that you’re right, than to turn around at this point and say “actually yeah, I was wrong and 2 years down the line I still have zero evidence to back up the claims I made that the vaccine was killing millions of people”. Also I do think as well, the reason why many can’t accept that they got it wrong, is because they’ve made being a CTist/anti-vaxer their personality. They say that being a CTist is synonymous with things like being intelligent, open minded, able to see the real truth unlike others, more moral, etc. and assign a lot of special qualities to themselves. So when you disagree with their theories, they see it as a personal attack on themselves and become very upset.
I think this paper is very interesting as it links belief in CT’s by some to ‘collective narcissism’ and gives quite an interesting breakdown of a lot of the behaviours exhibited by people who take CTs to an extreme. It suggests that they have a “high need for uniqueness which likely increases the appeal of conspiracy theories because they promise access to privileged information, making one feel special”.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352250X22001051?via=ihub

I don’t think this can be said for all CTists, but I think it describes quite well the most vocal CTists, ie the ones who place themselves as figureheads of CT movements and the ones who are often the most vocal online.

 

[Prefrontalmedialcortex]

Yeah this is why I don’t argue with them, some people are literally just too far gone and too circular in their beliefs, they’re not interested in a debate or a discussion. I think if you’ve been making these claims about the vaccine for years, it’s easier to just carry on screeching into the abyss that you’re right, than to turn around at this point and say “actually yeah, I was wrong and 2 years down the line I still have zero evidence to back up the claims I made that the vaccine was killing millions of people”. Also I do think as well, the reason why many can’t accept that they got it wrong, is because they’ve made being a CTist/anti-vaxer their personality. They say that being a CTist is synonymous with things like being intelligent, open minded, able to see the real truth unlike others, more moral, etc. and assign a lot of special qualities to themselves. So when you disagree with their theories, they see it as a personal attack on themselves and become very upset.
I think this paper is very interesting as it links belief in CT’s by some to ‘collective narcissism’ and gives quite an interesting breakdown of a lot of the behaviours exhibited by people who take CTs to an extreme. It suggests that they have a “high need for uniqueness which likely increases the appeal of conspiracy theories because they promise access to privileged information, making one feel special”.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352250X22001051?via=ihub

I don’t think this can be said for all CTists, but I think it describes quite well the most vocal CTists, ie the ones who place themselves as figureheads of CT movements and the ones who are often the most vocal online.

These people wouldn’t ever admit they were wrong as they do not actually listen to what is being said, they refuse to acknowledge there are other perspectives which are actually based on sense, truth and fact. Instead they will result to insults, twisting what you are saying and taking things out of context to suit their narrative and what they believe is the truth.

All this talk about being open minded, intelligent and having qualities that others do not have is nonsense. They think they are better than other people. The paper you linked is very interesting and I’ve read many similar ones discussing certain personality traits and their behaviour during the Covid-19 pandemic.

Certain aspects of narcissism (entitlement/self-interest) have been linked to decreased compliance with government guidelines which we saw with people throwing a tantrum over wearing masks, social distancing etc. Because of being self-centred, they are less likely to comply with prosocial behaviours as they do not see any gain from it and fail to see how their behaviour can affect others.

Yes this does not apply to all CT’s but there are a minority who like to shout the loudest.

 

[Deeznutslol]

These people wouldn’t ever admit they were wrong as they do not actually listen to what is being said, they refuse to acknowledge there are other perspectives which are actually based on sense, truth and fact. Instead they will result to insults, twisting what you are saying and taking things out of context to suit their narrative and what they believe is the truth.

All this talk about being open minded, intelligent and having qualities that others do not have is nonsense. They think they are better than other people. The paper you linked is very interesting and I’ve read many similar ones discussing certain personality traits and their behaviour during the Covid-19 pandemic.

Certain aspects of narcissism (entitlement/self-interest) have been linked to decreased compliance with government guidelines which we saw with people throwing a tantrum over wearing masks, social distancing etc. Because of being self-centred, they are less likely to comply with prosocial behaviours as they do not see any gain from it and fail to see how their behaviour can affect others.

Yes this does not apply to all CT’s but there are a minority who like to shout the loudest.

They claim to be in search of the truth, but what they really mean is, they’ve come to a certain conclusion and they’re going to keep pushing it regardless of whether it becomes clear that it’s completely wrong. They’re certainly interesting to study from a psychological perspective at least, there’s a reason why there are a lot of psychologists curious about what exactly drives someone to behave this way.

Yeah it’s quite similar to the article that Ensay posted last month which suggested that a fundamental flaw that many of them share is an overconfidence in their beliefs and personal abilities in general. As you say, there’s also an element of wanting to be a rule breaker as well I used to see the people bragging about not wearing masks and think god what do you want people to say to you rn? “Ohhhhh everyone watch out, we’ve got a bad boy over here who won’t wear his mask!”? Sit down and stop being so jarring.
There’s defo a huge difference between people who accidentally fall into CTs because they’ve read some fake news and think tit that’s scary, but are able to see that it’s not actually real after further research which debunks the false claims being made, and people who are just hardcore CTists who will never accept anything which challenges their own beliefs.

The thing I find baffling as well is that they speak about those who took the vaccine with complete and utter disdain, sneering down their noses, rolling their eyes and calling them stupid for not listening to the CTists, yet equally they seem to care so much about them and the choice that they made. YOU haven’t had the vaccine so why do you even care about all of the idiotic, WEF worshiping sheep who are supposedly currently dying en masse?!

 

[Prefrontalmedialcortex]

They claim to be in search of the truth, but what they really mean is, they’ve come to a certain conclusion and they’re going to keep pushing it regardless of whether it becomes clear that it’s completely wrong. They’re certainly interesting to study from a psychological perspective at least, there’s a reason why there are a lot of psychologists curious about what exactly drives someone to behave this way.

Yeah it’s quite similar to the article that Ensay posted last month which suggested that a fundamental flaw that many of them share is an overconfidence in their beliefs and personal abilities in general. As you say, there’s also an element of wanting to be a rule breaker as well I used to see the people bragging about not wearing masks and think god what do you want people to say to you rn? “Ohhhhh everyone watch out, we’ve got a bad boy over here who won’t wear his mask!”? Sit down and stop being so jarring.
There’s defo a huge difference between people who accidentally fall into CTs because they’ve read some fake news and think tit that’s scary, but are able to see that it’s not actually real after further research which debunks the false claims being made, and people who are just hardcore CTists who will never accept anything which challenges their own beliefs.

The thing I find baffling as well is that they speak about those who took the vaccine with complete and utter disdain, sneering down their noses, rolling their eyes and calling them stupid for not listening to the CTists, yet equally they seem to care so much about them and the choice that they made. YOU haven’t had the vaccine so why do you even care about all of the idiotic, WEF worshiping sheep who are supposedly currently dying en masse?!

Oh yes there is a lot of interest from a psychological perspective regarding personality traits, behaviours and general way of thinking. This has grown since the pandemic as there have been so many CT’s around the virus and vaccines.

People have been drawn into the anti-vax movement and conspiracy theories as there has been so much nonsense posted online and by people such as Dr McCullough, Andrew Wakefield, Dr Malone - all promoting misinformation about COVID-19, treatments and the vaccines. Thankfully it is a minority of people and most can see it for what it is.

The braggers are still bragging about being non-compliant and not being jabbed. So bloody what? Do you want a medal? I don’t see people bragging about wearing masks and getting the vaccines. It’s just another way for them to feel superior and better than the rest.

Ha! So typical for them to say that they don’t care whether people choose to have the vaccine or wear masks but they’re still taking the piss and going on about it.

 

[Lovecrisps]

They spent the whole period of covid saying we were living in fear despite them harping on about it constantly and here we are two years after vaccines and them doing the same thing going on about it non stop.

 

[Deeznutslol]

20 years on from now they’ll still be harping on about the truth coming out and millions of people dropping dead from the vaccine.

The braggers are still bragging about being non compliant and not being jabbed. So bloody what? Do you want a medal? I don’t see people bragging about wearing masks and getting the vaccines. It’s just another way for them to feel superior and better than the rest.

Ha! So typical for them to say that they don’t care whether people choose to have the vaccine or wear masks but they’re still taking the piss and going on about it.

I know mate. Sometimes you wanna just shake them and say, really?!!! This is what you’ve chosen to dedicate your entire life to? You see the same old washed up theories coming back around time and time again as well, most recently the racist ‘Michelle Obama is a man’ one has made a reappearance on twitter .
Yeah literally, a lot of them do just get off on making themselves feel superior and pilling into others with personal insults.

 

[Prefrontalmedialcortex]

I know mate. Sometimes you wanna just shake them and say, really?!!! This is what you’ve chosen to dedicate your entire life to? You see the same old washed up theories coming back around time and time again as well, most recently the racist ‘Michelle Obama is a man’ one has made a reappearance on twitter .
Yeah literally, a lot of them do just get off on making themselves feel superior and pilling into others with personal insults.

I’m not surprised, they move from one CT to the next and back round again. It’s just a constant loop. 🫥

 

[Ensay]

I think there's a social aspect to it. They surround themselves with people who agree with them and back them up and that forms an alliance and friendships in some cases. Then it becomes "us, the sane rational people, vs the stupid masses".

In addition to that, they also close ranks and back each other up when faced with someone who disagrees with them, and that only strengthens their volition. There's no one to say "actually, maybe we're not right about that aspect", they will just blindly back each other up.

I'm sure doubt must creep into some of their minds at least once, but they wouldn't dare raise it, because it would be seen as backstabbing and a surefire way of getting cast out of the social group.

It's pretty interesting in a strange way.

 

[Lovecrisps]

I'm fascinated by a friend who went completely off the rails during covid. She was already a non vaxxer of 6 of her 7 kids (in fairness to the few people I know who didn't vaccinate kids they actually vaccinated some then had a child react to a vax / be hospitalised very soon after and they assumed vax related - it's not rationale but it's understandable that they looked and saw correlation) but went completely down the rabbit holes of whole thing is a hoax, famous people werent actually getting a vaccination, just sugar water, noone has ever died of COVID, it's all about a cashless society and requiring vax passports etc. A number of times a few of us tried to reason with her posts on Facebook but she was completely closed off to anything, blocking people etc. Highlight for me was when she shared an hour long video supporting her views and asked someone who posted below her post to address the points in the video. Guy was clearly very educated and probably medical or statistics background. He made some very good points, agreed with one thing in the video but said eg "at 6:24 this isn't true because..." Asked her what she thought and her reply was "as you can imagine I'm very busy with my children and grandchildren and don't have time to watch the video" poor guy watched an hour of this tit to try and engage with her and she hadn't even and never did watch it.

The last year or so everything she posts there's the same few people commenting "they're all silent now, aren't they?" "That's because they're all dropping dead....SHEEP!!!". It's just an echo chamber and reason rest of us don't engage is because they aren't interested in facts and logical arguments.

 

[Deeznutslol]

Tbh I’ve never really looked at the actual statistics and risk of vaccine induced blood clots, but I’ve been ill today and given the recent obsession with attributing celeb heart attack deaths to the vaccine, I decided to have a look at the likelihood of having one after taking the (no longer even used) Astra Zeneca vaccine specifically, here’s what I found:

According to this cohort study which investigated incidence rates for major arterial, venous and thrombocytopenic outcomes 1-28 days after first vaccination with Astra Zeneca or Pfizer using the data of 46 million vaccinated people.

• In adults over 70 there was NO increased risk found for the development of major arterial/venous thrombotic events after 1st vaccination with either Pfizer/AZ
• In adults under 70 the absolute excess risk of developing an intracranial venous thrombosis after first vaccination with AZ was assessed to be between 0,9-3 events per million (0,00009-0,0003%)

https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1003926

This study found similar risks. 81 cases of CVST events reported out of the 16,34 million doses of Astra Zeneca giving a risk of 4 events per million (0,0005%).

https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1003927

As did the European Medicines Agency, as of April 2021 a grand total of 222 cases of rare blood clots had been reported out of the 34 million people vaccinated with AZ in the EEA (0,0007%).

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/a...very-rare-cases-unusual-blood-clots-low-blood

VITT incidence in particular has been reported at being between 0,002-0,001%.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8820951/

Now let’s see what the risks are for developing a major cardiovascular disease:
According to this study, when the pandemic was at its height before vaccines even existed, the risk of developing major CVD was 4x higher in those hospitalized and infected with covid-19 during the acute stage than those hospitalized and not infected.

https://academic.oup.com/cardiovascres/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cvr/cvac195/6987834?login=false

Tldr; the risk of developing a blood clot after administration of the Astra Zeneca vaccine was extremely low, and the risk of suffering a cardiac event was far higher in those hospitalized with Covid-19, than those hospitalized without Covid-19.


But anyway, forget all of that coz did you know that my cousins boyfriends best mate reckons his nan knows 20 different people who between them had 93 blood clots, 8 heart attacks and 10 strokes within 5 seconds of injecting themselves with an AsdaZendeya?
Mums life it defo happened x

 

[OwlAtTheMoon]

I'm fascinated by a friend who went completely off the rails during covid. She was already a non vaxxer of 6 of her 7 kids (in fairness to the few people I know who didn't vaccinate kids they actually vaccinated some then had a child react to a vax / be hospitalised very soon after and they assumed vax related - it's not rationale but it's understandable that they looked and saw correlation) but went completely down the rabbit holes of whole thing is a hoax, famous people werent actually getting a vaccination, just sugar water, noone has ever died of COVID, it's all about a cashless society and requiring vax passports etc. A number of times a few of us tried to reason with her posts on Facebook but she was completely closed off to anything, blocking people etc. Highlight for me was when she shared an hour long video supporting her views and asked someone who posted below her post to address the points in the video. Guy was clearly very educated and probably medical or statistics background. He made some very good points, agreed with one thing in the video but said eg "at 6:24 this isn't true because..." Asked her what she thought and her reply was "as you can imagine I'm very busy with my children and grandchildren and don't have time to watch the video" poor guy watched an hour of this tit to try and engage with her and she hadn't even and never did watch it.

The last year or so everything she posts there's the same few people commenting "they're all silent now, aren't they?" "That's because they're all dropping dead....SHEEP!!!". It's just an echo chamber and reason rest of us don't engage is because they aren't interested in facts and logical arguments.

I totally sympathise about friends and family going down ct anti-vax rabbit holes. I have two close family who are like this. It's painful to witness but there's nothing you can do.
What you say about hour-long youtube videos (or rambling segments on GB News etc) is so apt. It's always looooong convoluted messages from anti-vax 'influencers' which say very little, from the mouths of dodgy contributors, backed up with zilch bona fide evidence. Crucially, these programmes/videos are always excruciatingly long, never succinct, as if it's a badge of honour to have simply survived viewing them (empty vessels as they are - and alas, I've watched enough of these horrors to have 'done my research' on this (took them for the team, guys! )). I reckon the main reason they're long is the pure shitness of their (lack of) content. Any good speech writer will tell you - if you want to say something succinct and effective it's bloody hard work to write a concise, 5 minute speech, compared to say, a rambling 30-minute one.
And Deeznuts, hope you feel better soon. I've been under the weather the past couple of days - obvs must've been the vaccines I had 2 years ago () however am right as rain again today so phew, dodged that bullet! x

 

[MaineCoonMama]

The amount of people I've seen online that have fallen out with friends and family over the vaccine is just crazy. I lost two friends to the lockdown rabbithole( they were already halfway into the madness but really went balls deep at the beginning).
My husband is strongly anti-vaccine and has some other odd beliefs as well but neither of us will push our agenda onto the other to the point where we absolutely can't be civil anymore.
I've had three and I'll probably get the next one along with the flu vax as it's heading into winter where I live. I'll still wear a mask in winter as well if I'm on the train. My SIL gave me a cool mask that says 'duck Off You Cuntface', keeps the freaks away nicely haha

 

[Deeznutslol]

I totally sympathise about friends and family going down ct anti-vax rabbit holes. I have two close family who are like this. It's painful to witness but there's nothing you can do.
What you say about hour-long youtube videos (or rambling segments on GB News etc) is so apt. It's always looooong convoluted messages from anti-vax 'influencers' which say very little, from the mouths of dodgy contributors, backed up with zilch bona fide evidence. Crucially, these programmes/videos are always excruciatingly long, never succinct, as if it's a badge of honour to have simply survived viewing them (empty vessels as they are - and alas, I've watched enough of these horrors to have 'done my research' on this (took them for the team, guys! )). I reckon the main reason they're long is the pure shitness of their (lack of) content. Any good speech writer will tell you - if you want to say something succinct and effective it's bloody hard work to write a concise, 5 minute speech, compared to say, a rambling 30-minute one.
And Deeznuts, hope you feel better soon. I've been under the weather the past couple of days - obvs must've been the vaccines I had 2 years ago () however am right as rain again today so phew, dodged that bullet! x

I think most of them don’t even believe what they’re saying anymore. They’re just chronically online and saying it to get internet points. Like surely when they leave the house they look around and see that there aren’t masses of people dropping dead in the street like they predicted (if they actually leave the house, which I suspect a lot don’t)? But also, I always wonder, why aren’t they glad they were wrong and loads of people didn’t die in the end?

Haha thanks. I’ve got my first cold of the year and it has hit me hard . Same, although it has been 2 years since I lined up and held out my arm for the vax like a good little sheep and shockingly, the clot I was promised by the CTists still hasn’t arrived yet! Need some compo.