UK Politics & Brexit

[Horatio]

its so true that Brexit is responsible for such a crack in the Labour Party. Between working class leave voters and middle class remainers. And mps and Corbyn acting deaf to those concerns was likely the final nail in the coffin that sent so many to the conservatives. It’s infuriating to me. Being the party of the working person was one of the strengths and pride of Labour. It was what separated them so clearly from the tories, especially post thatcher.

Did anyone see Alan Johnson on itv’s coverage? He is a former Labour mp from a working class background and furious. He said to the leader of momentum “Corbyn couldn’t lead the working class out of a paper bag.”

I write that as someone who has lived most of my life in a privileged metropolitan bubble. I had many problems with Corbyn but overall I agreed with many of his ideas. But I am trying to understand why so many didn’t. I knew this defeat was coming but I’m still devastated by it. But I feel like it’s just proof how little we’ve learnt about the class divisions in this county since the referendum.
Posts like this, on my Facebook, I find so infuriating and unhelpful

. I don’t like many Conservative values and despise Boris Johnson but do I hate every conservative voter ? Of course not. And throwing the word ‘facist’ around just makes you look ignorant and narrow minded. We have to learn to respect how a person reached a position or we will never be able to change anything.

 

[midnightrose]

Not one Tory supporter on here or that I’ve spoken to has said that they’ve voted Tory for their policies.

 

[mindlessness]

I'm Australian but lived in the UK for a number of years (moved back last year). I have been watching the election from afar. It's really interesting to read everyone's points of view here.

I am hopeful that while I dislike Johnson*, a proper majority (without requiring DUP support) will lead to something, literally anything, moving forward on Brexit. Because once that happens, the Government needs to take a serious look at the problems across the UK. I love the UK - it's a wonderful place and somewhere I think of as a second home. But it's also struggling. Brexit is so the focus of the media and politicians and I think it has been to the detriment of all the other stuff a Government is responsible for.

*For the record, I dislike Johnson because I judge politicians on how they conduct themselves outside of politics as well as in politics. He has a stupendously storied and reckless personal life. I feel for his five children especially.

 

[Horatio]

Not one Tory supporter on here or that I’ve spoken to has said that they’ve voted Tory for their policies.

Well, quite. And beyond “get Brexit done” and something vague about building hospitals I doubt many people could name any of their manifesto policies. But Boris 1. Wasn’t Corbyn and 2. Was Boris. He strutted around the country with the confidence and ease that Theresa may was sadly lacking.

Everyone knows modern elections are largely popularity contests. You have to change for the system because it won’t change for you and Corbyn’s refusal to accept that is one of his worst qualities.

Someone on the bbc coverage made an interesting point on that. She said she was put off Corbyn because he had a big portion of the party and the members reject the way he was going and he refused to acknowledge or compromise those concerns. She said she found that a worrying demonstration of ego she wouldn’t like in a leader. Though I can’t understand how she found Boris a more palatable character, she’s not wrong on Corbyn.

 

[clt1992]

I would love to hear the thoughts of people who voted for him on this, genuinely very interested. I haven't seen much response to it anywhere other than to shift the blame - "well Jeremy Corbyn is antisemitic" (not on here I mean generally). I don't think that's a reason to justify voting for a party led by Boris Johnson after he has made many racist, misogynistic and homophobic remarks. I could understand if there were only two options, but there were other parties to vote for.

Simple because I voted for his party’s policies.

 

[mindlessness]

Simple because I voted for his party’s policies.

If you feel comfortable sharing...
Are there specific policies you think will directly benefit your local area? Or was your vote focussed more on big-picture/nation-wide policy issues? I am always curious about how much local or national issues influence people's votes. Also whether having a good incumbent Conservative MP influenced your choice? Or did your constituency turn blue in this election?

 

[Amy158]

Not one Tory supporter on here or that I’ve spoken to has said that they’ve voted Tory for their policies.

Excuse me I clearly stated the policies why I voted Tory because apparently I have to justify my vote now.

 

[onmylunchbreak]

Not one Tory supporter on here or that I’ve spoken to has said that they’ve voted Tory for their policies.

I did. We own a small business that employs a few people. Under a Labour government we wouldn’t have survived without letting a couple of people go, or having a significant price increase. Conservative policy on corporation tax is a big pull for us. I also support their stance on Brexit and they were the only major party that were honouring the result of the referendum. Having another was a threat to our democracy in my opinion. I live in the North and people here feel very left behind by Labour in the past few years and only listened to by the Conservative party.

 

[Horatio]

The New York Times has a good article. I like seeing UK politics explained for those living elsewhere.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/13/world/europe/uk-election-labour-redwall

.

It’s based in Bolsover where Denis skinner lost his seat by 5000 - despite supporting Brexit and holding it for 49 years. It seems even the association with Corbyn was poisonous,Brexit backing or no.


“But for Thomas and his wife, Christine, who declined to give their last name because they did not want friends to know how they voted, frustration at the region’s decline became wedded to anger at the immigrant workers who took the low-wage jobs that replaced mining.

“Jobs there should have gone to ex-miners, not to foreign workers,” Christine said of a warehouse on the site of a nearby mine. “Instead you see ex-miners thrown in the scrap heap.”

They had just been shopping near the warehouse, and found themselves among so many Polish people that, Thomas said, “we were foreigners.”

Lifelong Labour voters, they broke from much of the party in supporting Brexit and then finally stopped voting for it because of Mr. Corbyn’s leadership, they said, dominated as it was by an economic agenda too far to the left and a leadership rooted in London.

“It hurts,” Thomas said, though not all his allegiance was lost. “I still am a Labour man. I’ll vote Labour again when they get rid of this lot.”

 

[EmilyChambers]

If you feel comfortable sharing...
Are there specific policies you think will directly benefit your local area? Or was your vote focussed more on big-picture/nation-wide policy issues? I am always curious about how much local or national issues influence people's votes. Also whether having a good incumbent Conservative MP influenced your choice? Or did your constituency turn blue in this election?

Our area has 75,0000 registered voters. On the local results 81% of the votes went to Tory. Its been like that for years. Ita always been very close between Tory and Lab round here but it became Tory stronghold after Tony Blair got in.

Labour got 11% of the vote and the rest between lib dem and Green Party. Even for the campaign, we got every leaflet through our door except from Labour. Our Tory MP even went to our local pub to answer any questions and he's always in and out of the schools to help with something or other.

He is really pushing through a regen of the town centre and focusing on that and people love him for it because he's getting things done that can be seen and if you write to him for help, he handwrites a reply back either signposting you were to go, or asking you, if he doesn't know to get in touch to arrange a date to meet so he can learn how he can help or support.

But he can also be a knob!

Prior to him, never saw a local MP that involved or interested.

The area I work in is underfunded due to a labour overspend. Labour then promised in their manifesto to maintain the same level of funding but offer more "free" to the general public and then increase min wage and tax for the companies which would see even more of my job area closed down.

Labour wants to continue with its idea of hs2 which is biggest waste of money going. I've seen businesses that are profit making and have been for 50 plus years being forced to close for this and the countryside ruined round by us. They are even raising it on a bleeping platform near to us. I spoke with someone who works on the group for hs2 and they seem to think the average person won't be able to afford the cost of a return ticket to London and that's its actually being built and aimed at London based companies to expand their recruitment countrywide so they will cover trainfare for employees outside of London to get to work and back in two hours (there and back) he also said that this will increase the average UK wage which looks good but it also means house prices will further increase making housing more unaffordable for those who don't work in London and then of course, there's the issue that London doesn't have unlimited jobs. On top of that, the overspend is already in the billions. That could have been better directed at hundreds of things in the country. Tory said they will stop hs2 and make adaptations they want to improve the current train networks.

Of course we all need to remember that they all say want you want to hear and for me personally, I don't think it's a god reflection on any party to have to make pie crust promises but none of them can actually confidently show what they've done good in their current terms and build on that.

 

[clt1992]

If you feel comfortable sharing...
Are there specific policies you think will directly benefit your local area? Or was your vote focussed more on big-picture/nation-wide policy issues? I am always curious about how much local or national issues influence people's votes. Also whether having a good incumbent Conservative MP influenced your choice? Or did your constituency turn blue in this election?

I live in South London, my local constituency stayed blue however the majority of London is Labour.
Like I said it wasn’t Brexit that swayed my vote as I initially voted remain and still believe we should remain. I didn’t agree with labour stating all the things they were going to make free (WiFi, uni fees, trains) this would be a complete disaster as the country simply doesn’t have the money for that. Conservatives had my vote as they have stated they won’t increase taxes, they will bring in a points based immigration system which I believe this country needs, more police etc etc

 

[EmilyChambers]

And can I just say to everyone on here, this is genuinely the first space where I've felt safe. I've been verbally abused on other platforms and called all sorts of names because I've shared a reason why I voted along with personal experience why I voted etc.

I even saw a post from a Labour voter that wished cancer on a poster and their family because then they wouldn't be able to work, then they wouldn't be able to afford private health care then they would die and that would be there own fault for voting Tory.

I just can't get on board with Labour but I absolutely love reading and learning about others views and why they voted Labour etc but I think as soon as anyone makes an insult or starts behaving like an animal, you lose any credibility your argument had.

 

[slugella]

Simple because I voted for his party’s policies.

I personally voted for policies and what was realistic rather than the people. Don’t like any of them tbh

I do believe you should vote for policies not whether you like the person. However, when they are racist/homophobic/misogynistic I think that goes past whether the person is likeable and into a different conversation. Gets into dangerous territory when things like that can be easily overlooked and dismissed with "well I didn't like any of them anyway, policies not people." Does this not play into the decision? Where is the line?

I'm not meaning to be confrontational I'm genuinely just interested.

 

[PoleStar]

I’m not necessarily saying he was lieing but one persons story doesn’t prove anything. It doesn’t prove that it’s happening on a large enough scale to mean it can be considered ‘stealing’ from tax payers. And if we accept that those 3 people had dialysis, I don’t think that’s a problem. You responded to my first post about it being largely a myth that immigrants are the reason for the nhs strain, unemployment etc as ‘angry’ so you clearly do think it’s a problem for someone who doesn’t have the right piece of paperwork to have life saving treatment here. What words am I putting in your mouth?

You're implying I'm "begrudging treatment" when I'm not. I didn't say that, you did! As for this happening on a large scale, it is happening everywhere across the UK in one way or another and to one degree or another. I think I know a bit about this as I've spent years actually working in the NHS, have you?? You have no idea how I feel about this as you don't know me, I wasn't being "angry", just trying to show the other side of the story. As for this being "one person's story", it may be one person's story but that doesn't make it automatically incorrect does it?

 

[Horatio]

And can I just say to everyone on here, this is genuinely the first space where I've felt safe. I've been verbally abused on other platforms and called all sorts of names because I've shared a reason why I voted along with personal experience why I voted etc.

I even saw a post from a Labour voter that wished cancer on a poster and their family because then they wouldn't be able to work, then they wouldn't be able to afford private health care then they would die and that would be there own fault for voting Tory.

I just can't get on board with Labour but I absolutely love reading and learning about others views and why they voted Labour etc but I think as soon as anyone makes an insult or starts behaving like an animal, you lose any credibility your argument had.

So glad you feel comfortable. And I’m glad to be a part of the discussion we have going here. It’s what it’s all about. I feel as strongly about the election and politics as any disheartened labour voter but that doesn’t mean I feel any personal animosity towards you. I completely agree that being malicious about it undermines an argument completely. The fact that someone would wish cancer on someone else out of ‘support’ for the NHS and not see the hypocrisy... it’s infuriating because that attitude is partly responsible for why labour lost so many voters.

Now don’t get me wrong, there are people who’s opinion I refuse to respect. By which I mean openly racist white nationalists and such. I bring this up because I think it’s so important we distinguish between someone with good intentions but different ideas about how to enact them and someone with vile bigoted hate filled views. Calling anyone slightly right wing ‘racist’ or ‘facist’ weakens confrontation of the real bigots. And it’s up to any decent person to be able to call that out regardless of labels like ‘labour’ ‘Tory’ ‘Lib Dem.’ We are all, hopefully, united against that.

I also accept there are Tory’s with some mild or moderately racist views.. But despite stereotypes it is far from limited to that party. And it’s not even limited to middle aged middle England - ‘woke’ millennial liberals can be as predjudiced as anyone. But allot of people don’t realise it and would be shocked to be accused. It’s partly to do with education, partly self awareness.
Which is why ‘Tory racism’ is not in any way the same as ‘national front racism’ and should be treated as such.

 

[slugella]

I agree I'm enjoying seeing this conversation. It's very intriguing to see the other side as my community is a bit of a Labour/Green bubble haha.

Which is why ‘Tory racism’ is not in any way the same as ‘national front racism’ and should be treated as such.

Totally agree my post above didn't mean to imply people have voted for Hitler or something. And BJ is definitely no Nigel Farage. But I do still find it concerning that the comments he has made seem to have been accepted as not serious enough to be concerned, or just dismissed with "policies not people." I do hope they don't reflect his opinions now for the sake of the country and that we won't see that side of him in the future.

I'm not on board with Labour at the moment either. Greens have my support at the moment. I also think Caroline Lucas is incredible

 

[OnlyHereForTheLolz]

I know a lot of people were shocked when I said I voted to Leave and I also vote Tory.
It seems that a lot of lefties like to shame us if we don’t agree with their policies and am immediately dubbed racist for voting leave. This despite the fact that ALL the Asians and a lot of black people I know also voted leave.
My personal opinion is that those of us who come from countries that are broken saw the writing on the wall when the borders were opened to the EU. Without capped immigration it really is unsustainable. Voting leave did not mean no to refugees, it meant no to open borders.
I came to the UK in 2004 and could do unskilled worked in London for over £10ph, the borders opened that May and within the first month I saw wages drop because people were willing to work for far less than the British. And it really has never recovered as the same jobs I were offered back then for £10 is still at £10, 15 years later!

 

[JessicaFletcher]

It really isnt as simple as saying 'if you vote tory you're a racist or a bigot'. Its more complicated and people have their reasons. If you don't remember the last labour government or haven't researched it then you won't remember why some people don't want them back in. Some have voted tory because Corbyn refused to take a stand on what he wanted for Brexit. Labours new policies didn't add up, and people chose other options. We need to look outside the box.

I've seen a lot of prejudice and stereotyping from labour supporters. It isn't like the days when tory voters were all middle class white people anymore. Labour failed not because the country is full of racists, but because they simply didn't offer something people could get behind. They were promising money everywhere but their plan wasn't realistic to achieve it. Corbyn's ideas were too far left. We've been living in limbo over brexit and Corbyn has been holding it up for several months. People don't like uncertainty and want to know what life will be like the other side of brexit. Some younger people who were to young to vote at the time over brexit are now old enough to vote over this election which to many seems like a brexit election. Only 67% of the UK actually voted! How many of these are young idealistic labour voters that are opinionated on the internet but couldn't actually be bothered to take action?

 

[onmylunchbreak]

I have been abused by Labour supporters on social media over the last week. I have presented a measured argument, as I did above. I haven’t slung mud at Jeremy Corbyn or insulted Labour voters, we all have a voice and are so lucky to live in a country that has a democracy. In the past week I have been called ‘stupid witch, brainless, a cretin, selfish’ and that I ‘deserve for my children to die under a Tory NHS’. Just shocking.

 

[slugella]

I have been abused by Labour supporters on social media over the last week. I have presented a measured argument, as I did above. I haven’t slung mud at Jeremy Corbyn or insulted Labour voters, we all have a voice and are so lucky to live in a country that has a democracy. In the past week I have been called ‘stupid witch, brainless, a cretin, selfish’ and that I ‘deserve for my children to die under a Tory NHS’. Just shocking.

That is shocking, and yes we are lucky that we live in a democracy. I'm sorry you have had to deal with that. It's sad that people can't disagree without getting aggressive and offensive.