The advice thread for random problems #4

[trudyjudy007]

It is just an internal HR investigation, I was worried to raise it anyway in case I was making a fuss. But HR keep pulling me in for further questioning, like Thursday I was in for an hour and a half whilst they asked me stuff like "how does he know what car you drive?" .... I drive to work so it's no secret

Why hasn’t your workplace reported this? You absolutely need to tell the police and you need counselling also. My country has a freephone helpline for people who have been victims of crimes, you may be able to find something similar. You can also visit your GP to be referred for counselling or you can go privately. Would medication help short term to alleviate symptoms?

Your anger/outbursts/irritability are because you’re shouldering too much of this alone.

 

[cee-bee]

It sounds like perhaps he’s claiming it’s not unsolicited. While the HR action is horrendous for you and verging on victim blaming they need to have it tied up legally if he’s going to lose his job. While it’s horrible, he could sue them and go after you for false accusations if there’s any doubt. They just need to have it all in writing, from the horse’s mouth so to speak.
As distressing and unfair as it will be, it’s for the best. Stand your ground.
It’s exactly why so many people don’t bother to pursue these things and abuseres know that.

Depending on the size of your company and their insurance, they may be able to offer some formal help in terms of a talking therapy or similar.

while I partially agree with you, I wanted to flag a few things
- with sexual harassment and unsolicited videos like this, it’s not up to the perpetrator to decide if it’s unsolicited or not.
- if he did try to claim it was solicited, then it’s not up to an HR personnel to assess the veracity of this claim.
- a workplace/employer can be held liable for this behaviour if they haven’t taken steps to protect the victim. Which is probably why they are trying to dismiss and pressure the vicitim here. It’s easier if they pressure her to leave and say nothing.
- at best, he can maybe suggest she asked for a video, and that he has reasonable belief she asked for it. However there’s no real way for him to “go after” the OP. She received a video, has gone to work to complain. There’s no libel or slander there. If he can’t provide tangible evidence, then he doesn’t have a leg to stand on.

I think the mistake in your advice to the OP is the assumption they are looking out for her. I think it’s pretty clear based on what’s been said, that this isn’t the case.

I’d hazard a guess this isn’t the first instance he’s done this or similar, and they’ve ignored it. It’s probably why they aren’t advocating for police involvement, because if he’s had a complaint of this nature against him before, they can become legally liable for his behaviour in this case.

objectively, offenders rarely dive into this type of offending. There’s a video and it’s explicit and it’s strong evidence for a case against him. You have to ask yourself why he feels emboldened to send it and to not be scared of the consequences? Normally it’s because he’s never had to face consequences and is used to victims being silent and for others giving him a free pass.

it’s another reason why police involvement is crucial here: they can and should interview other women in the organisation to identify if this is a pattern of behaviour.

again, I’m so sorry this has happened to you OP. Like someone else has said, small wonder you’re irritable. You’re shouldering this alone and you’re being treated horribly. None of this is your fault.

 

[Thank(space)you]

Spoiler: Spoiler : long

It's meant to be confidential whilst investigated but he has been telling people his version of events, which is that I've pursued him, pressured him for sex, I'm so clingy to him & he didn't send a video but if he did I wanted it. He's also claiming to know my address & my car.

I've sent HR numerous screenshots of him asking to meet me & me refusing, me blocking him on social media & him messaging me from new accounts, there's minutes from a meeting I had with management back in July where I was complaining he was being inappropriate towards me (asking for nudes & sending an unsolicited fool pic), people have come forward to tell HR of times he has made inappropriate sexual comments regarding me/my body.

HR have been honest & said they've not really dealt with a case like this before, which is why it is taking longer than expected. Its been 2 weeks today since I raised the issue. I've been called in for additional questioning 4 times, including quite personal questions like "you said you've not had a relationship with a work colleague, but we know you went on a date with [name of a different colleague] once. Do you see how that's a contradiction?" So I've had to explain that 1 date is not a relationship and it didn't go anywhere, plus the amount people gossiped about it put me off the idea of dating anyone from work. Asking me how I know it was [perpetrator]'s pen in the video if we haven't had sexual relations before (I don't know it is his fool, but it was a live video sent to me from his social media account) asking me if I frequently gossip in work etc. It has been really stressful and I can't talk to anyone about it at work or defend myself; because it is meant to be confidential. I know people are talking about me, nobody sat with me at the work Xmas do

It's always on my mind, I'm struggling to sleep, I'm so anxious going into office that sometimes I'm actually sick with nerves.

I just want it to be over.

I'm on annual leave now until new year but have asked they keep me up to date with everything anyway as don't want this hanging over my head over Xmas.

 

[cee-bee]

Spoiler: Spoiler : long

It's meant to be confidential whilst investigated but he has been telling people his version of events, which is that I've pursued him, pressured him for sex, I'm so clingy to him & he didn't send a video but if he did I wanted it. He's also claiming to know my address & my car.

I've sent HR numerous screenshots of him asking to meet me & me refusing, me blocking him on social media & him messaging me from new accounts, there's minutes from a meeting I had with management back in July where I was complaining he was being inappropriate towards me (asking for nudes & sending an unsolicited fool pic), people have come forward to tell HR of times he has made inappropriate sexual comments regarding me/my body.

HR have been honest & said they've not really dealt with a case like this before, which is why it is taking longer than expected. Its been 2 weeks today since I raised the issue. I've been called in for additional questioning 4 times, including quite personal questions like "you said you've not had a relationship with a work colleague, but we know you went on a date with [name of a different colleague] once. Do you see how that's a contradiction?" So I've had to explain that 1 date is not a relationship and it didn't go anywhere, plus the amount people gossiped about it put me off the idea of dating anyone from work. Asking me how I know it was [perpetrator]'s pen in the video if we haven't had sexual relations before (I don't know it is his fool, but it was a live video sent to me from his social media account) asking me if I frequently gossip in work etc. It has been really stressful and I can't talk to anyone about it at work or defend myself; because it is meant to be confidential. I know people are talking about me, nobody sat with me at the work Xmas do

It's always on my mind, I'm struggling to sleep, I'm so anxious going into office that sometimes I'm actually sick with nerves.

I just want it to be over.

I'm on annual leave now until new year but have asked they keep me up to date with everything anyway as don't want this hanging over my head over Xmas.

Confidential doesn’t mean You’re not allowed to report. I don’t care if they haven’t dealt with a case like this before, they are letting you down horrendously. Their incompetence and lack of experience isn’t your problem. If they can’t handle it, they should’ve passed it to police, two weeks ago. You don’t deserve to suffer because they suck. Your reputation and work environment is suffering because of their inability to do their job properly.

I’ll be frank with you. I’d say you have a robust legal case against your workplace right now. I’d strongly consider getting a lawyer to review.

I’m absolutely furious on your behalf.

 

[littlepup]

However there’s no real way for him to “go after” the OP. She received a video, has gone to work to complain. There’s no libel or slander there. If he can’t provide tangible evidence, then he doesn’t have a leg to stand on.

I think the mistake in your advice to the OP is the assumption they are looking out for her. I think it’s pretty clear based on what’s been said, that this isn’t the case.

I don’t think they are protecting OP, they are protecting themselves.

HR as you say, mightn’t be doing this correctly, I would think they’d need a lawyer present at least, but if they’re doing an internal investigation they’d need to ensure a crime has been committed and that comes down to consent. It’s completely my mistake to have read it as the OP didn’t want the police involved and from that take that the investigation needed to be internal.

If it were proven no crime had been committed, because sending a video on itself isn’t a crime, the accused could pursue the accuser legally.

Please correct me if this is wrong.

ETA: I’ve just read OPs response. The employer is totally out of their depth, what they’ve done is abhorrent and OP has a strong claim against them.

 

[trudyjudy007]

Spoiler: Spoiler : long

It's meant to be confidential whilst investigated but he has been telling people his version of events, which is that I've pursued him, pressured him for sex, I'm so clingy to him & he didn't send a video but if he did I wanted it. He's also claiming to know my address & my car.

I've sent HR numerous screenshots of him asking to meet me & me refusing, me blocking him on social media & him messaging me from new accounts, there's minutes from a meeting I had with management back in July where I was complaining he was being inappropriate towards me (asking for nudes & sending an unsolicited fool pic), people have come forward to tell HR of times he has made inappropriate sexual comments regarding me/my body.

HR have been honest & said they've not really dealt with a case like this before, which is why it is taking longer than expected. Its been 2 weeks today since I raised the issue. I've been called in for additional questioning 4 times, including quite personal questions like "you said you've not had a relationship with a work colleague, but we know you went on a date with [name of a different colleague] once. Do you see how that's a contradiction?" So I've had to explain that 1 date is not a relationship and it didn't go anywhere, plus the amount people gossiped about it put me off the idea of dating anyone from work. Asking me how I know it was [perpetrator]'s pen in the video if we haven't had sexual relations before (I don't know it is his fool, but it was a live video sent to me from his social media account) asking me if I frequently gossip in work etc. It has been really stressful and I can't talk to anyone about it at work or defend myself; because it is meant to be confidential. I know people are talking about me, nobody sat with me at the work Xmas do

It's always on my mind, I'm struggling to sleep, I'm so anxious going into office that sometimes I'm actually sick with nerves.

I just want it to be over.

I'm on annual leave now until new year but have asked they keep me up to date with everything anyway as don't want this hanging over my head over Xmas.

Please get all of your documents in order and go to the police (today if you can). You going to the police doesn’t mean they’re going to go kick his door in, but you need to start a paper trail with them and inform them that he’s scared you by telling people he knows your car and address. He very may well have previous complaints or charges against him & the police will have this on record.

You need to try speak to a solicitor/lawyer asap before they go on leave for Xmas and you have to return to work. But For what it’s worth I would not be going back to this workplace, have your GP sign you off.

 

[Popcornshovel]

Spoiler: Spoiler : long

It's meant to be confidential whilst investigated but he has been telling people his version of events, which is that I've pursued him, pressured him for sex, I'm so clingy to him & he didn't send a video but if he did I wanted it. He's also claiming to know my address & my car.

I've sent HR numerous screenshots of him asking to meet me & me refusing, me blocking him on social media & him messaging me from new accounts, there's minutes from a meeting I had with management back in July where I was complaining he was being inappropriate towards me (asking for nudes & sending an unsolicited fool pic), people have come forward to tell HR of times he has made inappropriate sexual comments regarding me/my body.

HR have been honest & said they've not really dealt with a case like this before, which is why it is taking longer than expected. Its been 2 weeks today since I raised the issue. I've been called in for additional questioning 4 times, including quite personal questions like "you said you've not had a relationship with a work colleague, but we know you went on a date with [name of a different colleague] once. Do you see how that's a contradiction?" So I've had to explain that 1 date is not a relationship and it didn't go anywhere, plus the amount people gossiped about it put me off the idea of dating anyone from work. Asking me how I know it was [perpetrator]'s pen in the video if we haven't had sexual relations before (I don't know it is his fool, but it was a live video sent to me from his social media account) asking me if I frequently gossip in work etc. It has been really stressful and I can't talk to anyone about it at work or defend myself; because it is meant to be confidential. I know people are talking about me, nobody sat with me at the work Xmas do

It's always on my mind, I'm struggling to sleep, I'm so anxious going into office that sometimes I'm actually sick with nerves.

I just want it to be over.

I'm on annual leave now until new year but have asked they keep me up to date with everything anyway as don't want this hanging over my head over Xmas.

Please see this for what it is - HR are being crap because they want you to drop the case. They don't want it actually dealt with. They're asking you these questions to undermine you.

If it was me, I would be going off sick for stress to avoid the workplace and asking HR when they will be suspending/dismissing the man.

 

[cee-bee]

Please see this for what it is - HR are being crap because they want you to drop the case. They don't want it actually dealt with. They're asking you these questions to undermine you.

If it was me, I would be going off sick for stress to avoid the workplace and asking HR when they will be suspending/dismissing the man.

i agree totally. This is weaponised incompetence and misogyny at its finest. If this guy was embezzling money from the company, you can bet your life they’d suddenly find a reserve of skill and experience to handle it, there would be a layer in the room and he sure as hell wouldn’t be allowed to continue working to complain that he wasn’t stealing and it was resting in his account. Nah, he’d be fired within days.

but because the victim is a woman, and because it’s a sex related crime, it’s being shrugged off here. They just “don’t know how to handle it”. Except They absolutely do. They have a legal obligation to know how to handle it. They are lying to you.
Worse, they are potentially putting your other colleagues in danger, not to mention placing additional trauma on to you by allowing this man to continue at your workplace and spread lies.

I’m really disgusted at how you’ve been treated OP.
are you a member of any trade unions at all?

If it were proven no crime had been committed, because sending a video on itself isn’t a crime, the accused could pursue the accuser legally.

sending a wanking video without the receiver’s consent is 100% a crime. The accused has zero recourse to pursue the accuser legally, based on the info we have given.

 

[littlepup]

sending a wanking video without the receiver’s consent is 100% a crime. The accused has zero recourse to pursue the accuser legally, based on the info we have given.

Yes, which I have said it hinges on consent.
I literally wrote “need to ensure a crime has been committed and that comes down to consent”.

And no, on the info we have been given no crime has been committed. But I understand why it needs to be investigated.

 

[cee-bee]

Yes, which I have said it hinges on consent.
I literally wrote “need to ensure a crime has been committed and that comes down to consent”.

And no, on the info we have been given no crime has been committed. But I understand why it needs to be investigated.

are you serious? OP has said it was unsolicited ergo no consent ergo on the basis of the information we’ve been given, a crime has indeed been committed

 

[Popcornshovel]

Please get all of your documents in order and go to the police (today if you can). You going to the police doesn’t mean they’re going to go kick his door in, but you need to start a paper trail with them and inform them that he’s scared you by telling people he knows your car and address. He very may well have previous complaints or charges against him & the police will have this on record.

You need to try speak to a solicitor/lawyer asap before they go on leave for Xmas and you have to return to work. But For what it’s worth I would not be going back to this workplace, have your GP sign you off.

Might be worth approaching a charity like women's aid to see if they have any advice?
---

Yes, which I have said it hinges on consent.
I literally wrote “need to ensure a crime has been committed and that comes down to consent”.

And no, on the info we have been given no crime has been committed. But I understand why it needs to be investigated.

It's a crime - https://metro.co.uk/2022/03/13/peop...ics-to-face-up-to-two-years-in-jail-16266953/

 

[littlepup]

are you serious? OP has said it was unsolicited ergo no consent ergo on the basis of the information we’ve been given, a crime has indeed been committed

I don’t know what you’re not getting.
I’m not disputing that it is a crime. I’m not suggesting for a second it’s not a crime.
But as with any accusation it has to be proven.

Sending a video is not a crime. Sending a video without consent is. If the accused is saying there was consent, it has to be investigated to establish there was no consent, to prove that a crime has been committed.

They can’t just take OP’s word for it, sack the accused and go about their business.
He could make a counter claim, that would also have to be investigated because you can’t just take action without proof.

It's a crime - https://metro.co.uk/2022/03/13/peop...ics-to-face-up-to-two-years-in-jail-16266953/

Yes, “unwanted”. It’s about establishing that there was no consent. They can’t just take a word for it.

 

[Captainmouse]

Have you spoken to ACAS?

 

[Meg78]

Spoiler: Spoiler : long

It's meant to be confidential whilst investigated but he has been telling people his version of events, which is that I've pursued him, pressured him for sex, I'm so clingy to him & he didn't send a video but if he did I wanted it. He's also claiming to know my address & my car.

I've sent HR numerous screenshots of him asking to meet me & me refusing, me blocking him on social media & him messaging me from new accounts, there's minutes from a meeting I had with management back in July where I was complaining he was being inappropriate towards me (asking for nudes & sending an unsolicited fool pic), people have come forward to tell HR of times he has made inappropriate sexual comments regarding me/my body.

HR have been honest & said they've not really dealt with a case like this before, which is why it is taking longer than expected. Its been 2 weeks today since I raised the issue. I've been called in for additional questioning 4 times, including quite personal questions like "you said you've not had a relationship with a work colleague, but we know you went on a date with [name of a different colleague] once. Do you see how that's a contradiction?" So I've had to explain that 1 date is not a relationship and it didn't go anywhere, plus the amount people gossiped about it put me off the idea of dating anyone from work. Asking me how I know it was [perpetrator]'s pen in the video if we haven't had sexual relations before (I don't know it is his fool, but it was a live video sent to me from his social media account) asking me if I frequently gossip in work etc. It has been really stressful and I can't talk to anyone about it at work or defend myself; because it is meant to be confidential. I know people are talking about me, nobody sat with me at the work Xmas do

It's always on my mind, I'm struggling to sleep, I'm so anxious going into office that sometimes I'm actually sick with nerves.

I just want it to be over.

I'm on annual leave now until new year but have asked they keep me up to date with everything anyway as don't want this hanging over my head over Xmas.

My sibling is police and helped me report sexual harassment at work a few years ago. HR are to protect the company, not you. Report it and protect yourself please

 

[Thank(space)you]

Have you spoken to ACAS?

No I haven't.


I've had messages from people saying they feel I should be suspended because it's my word against his (they obviously don't know about all the evidence I have) I'm so upset

 

[littlepup]

No I haven't.


I've had messages from people saying they feel I should be suspended because it's my word against his (they obviously don't know about all the evidence I have) I'm so upset

Your employer has not protected you from this which they have to by law. By his talking about it, it’s further harassment. You have a clear cut case against them, especially with the minutes showing he’s already harassed you. What steps did they take then, anything? Keep a copy of everything you have in writing, anything verbal, note date and time. Speak to an employment lawyer.

 

[trudyjudy007]

No I haven't.


I've had messages from people saying they feel I should be suspended because it's my word against his (they obviously don't know about all the evidence I have) I'm so upset

Keep all of these messages and bring them to HR.

I’m not going to push you any further as this is clearly a very stressful situation for you but please go to the police, contact a solicitor and go to your GP to be signed off. Let HR know you will need to have legal advice before speaking with them again.

 

[AshMay]

Wtf I'm furious on your behalf @Thank(space)you sending big hugs

 

[cee-bee]

Big hugs @Thank(space)you, please do jump on this thread if you need support.

I won’t repeat what others have said… but this sounds like an absolutely toxic workplace where losers like the guy who sent the vid are able to act with impunity while innocent women are treated with hostility and disbelief. This is a them problem, and nothing to do with you or your actions.

you’ve got lots of options available to you. They might try and make you feel like you don’t.
As it stands, this guy looks like he’s committed sexual harassment offences and you probably have good grounds for anti-stalking orders. He’s bullying you, and no amount of dates with your colleagues contravenes the fact this guy is getting a kick out of harassing you and making you feel anxious. Dating a colleague never made anyone fair game for harassment. Your HR have made several comments which you’ve relayed which also suggest you’ve been the victim of discrimination, or deeply unprofessional behaviour at best. They should be losing their jobs because at a minimum, they’ve admitted to gross incompetence and likely are culpable of gross negligence.

I’d be asking for paid time off, contacting the police and seeking legal representation as of today. And I’d seriously consider a new job: these people sound like absolute rum. Please keep us updated as we’ll be rooting for you.

 

[Thank(space)you]

Your employer has not protected you from this which they have to by law. By his talking about it, it’s further harassment. You have a clear cut case against them, especially with the minutes showing he’s already harassed you. What steps did they take then, anything? Keep a copy of everything you have in writing, anything verbal, note date and time. Speak to an employment lawyer.

They told me to speak to him and try to resolve it between ourselves in first instance.