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Bread

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Yes - well most things in the podcast are legal (just!) but that doesn't make them right. Why, for example, did he feel he had the right to launch himself at Julia and push her back on the sofa? Surely he should establish consent beforehand? and yet, growing up I thought that kind of behaviour was the norm. I thought if a man grabbed you or kissed you with force, or without checking it was OK with you first, it was romantic. This article really hit home with me, and made me think about my own experiences and expectations. I wrote a lot of fiction growing up, and some of the dynamics/relationships in the stories are hard to read now.

7 Reasons So Many Guys Don’t Understand Sexual Consent | Cracked.com

I entirely believe the women who have told their stories. While much of what he is alleged to have done isn't illegal, that doesn't make it OK - and the fact that he had held onto emails from K (I think), producing one as 'proof' without context, says that he knew very well what he was doing. Also he was very careful with his own texts, as if knowing they would be produced as evidence one day. For someone who acts as if he has no control and who is very rough sexually, he is remarkably in control in other aspects of his life.

The texts from Scarlett will pretty much destroy a case, I'd imagine, because there is no nuance in text. Even if you put into context her emotions and her vulnerability, he hasn't done anything "wrong" (illegal) and he has clear evidence of her consent - which she admits. Which is, in reality, how it should be - it is a case of he said/she said, and he has the evidence to back up his story. But he is a deeply unpleasant man nonetheless. I'm uncomfortable with him being "cancelled" as I'd rather he continued to churn out his books and nobody bought them. That sends a clearer message than a publishing house dropping you because you're damaged goods (IMO).

I think he will also get a lot of people supporting him because he is bloody convincing with his soft eloquence and his "poor me, I've been so mistaken, poor muddled confused man" 'apology'. Also because his accusers continued to go out with him and sleep with him despite his appalling behaviour and asked him for money. People don't get WHY people do certain things (for example, a rape victim might become very promiscuous either as an attempt to reclaim their body or because they loathe it and see it as worthless - which then results in "oh, they cant' have been raped as they're sleeping around" judgements - and moreover they don't always want to. If you like NG - if he's your friend or an idol, you won't want to hear bad stuff about him. You'll cling to every excuse you can find to dismiss his accusers.
 
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As I have said before ( maybe in this or Amanda thread), even if it turns out that that that the allegations are false, I can not trust someone who conducts there private life in such a gross way
 
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emeraldopal

Well-known member
Reading Neil's non-apology apology again, these words stand out to me--

"I don’t accept there was any abuse...I have never engaged in non-consensual sexual activity with anyone.”

He didn't see any abuse or non-consent because he didn't want to see it. Both Neil and Amanda have used their power, privilege, and money to get what they want. They have been careless and thoughtless with other people. The imbalance of power and status between Neil and his victims alone is enough to question whether anyone was in a position to actually give consent.
Exactly this; perfectly put. His statement (won't call it an apology) makes me sick as he is so arrogant and lacking in empathy to believe that someone of his magnetism (as he perceived it) could ever have coerced someone into consent. Does he not understand grooming? Of course he does, he's just incapable of seeing it in his own behaviour
 
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Limey

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Haven't read that article but it's pure arrogance to even think about making a comeback. He's rich enough to just disappear, fight or settle the cases and live out of the limelight. But no, he wants to try to win back the adoration and attention. Disgusting creep.
Creeps like this will always find a small gang of defenders, but he'll never get back to where he was. He's done.
 
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shellie

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I read it.
I genuinely thought I’d unfollowed Gaiman but apparently not. And i was at work and a bit bored so I read it.
It ’proves’ absolutely nothing at all. It just seems to be a collection of screenshots of people being mean to him and the suggestion that there was a collective coordinated “take down” of him by terfs and antisemites.
Don’t get me wrong, the Antisemitism is absolutely vile to read. But it proved nothing.
Id go so far as to say that either him or Palmer wrote the substack too
According to the blinds, he wants to make a comeback so paid a reporter to spruce up a story by cherry picking things but they doubt it will work as there are more people who could come forward who haven't yet.
 
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It looks like some of the lawsuit has failed.

It was always something that would be incredibly difficult to prove to the standard required in court.

Regardless of outcome, I still have no respect for him left. He is just another grubby and pathetic man that sleeps with girls half his age and doesn't care what damage he causes.
 
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thenewblack

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I wouldn't say that I'm a massive fan of Gaiman's. I read American Gods and thought it was phenomenal but am not really into fantasy fiction so struggled with any other books. The tv series based on his work have been...OK.

I read the article (with much difficulty) and then spoke to my partner about it, without giving him too much of the detail, and I really struggled to find the words to describe Gaiman. Pervert doesn't seem apt...I believe he is depraved. It takes a lot to shock me but I actually felt physically sick at some of what I read. I hope that the women he has abused find some peace and I hope we never have to see his face again. But I doubt the latter.
 
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MistyWindows

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Has anyone seen this? It’s really pissed me off this morning, no context to the situation Scarlet was in or nuance about how sexual predators ‘work’.

I know it’s just meant to be reporting unbiasedly, but one vague mention of babysitting working, then one quick mention of other accusations isn’t very accurate is it.

That narc message he sent her all ‘boo hoo, Amanda says you’re going to Me Too me’ (Me Too me? Really? What an odd and gross way to put it) could have easily been written by my abuser. Absolutely classic.

Maybe I’m being harsh to the journalist here, but I feel a bit sick, he’s disgusting.
 
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pinkmug

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Ugh he’s vile.

(please read with caution if easily triggered, the article expands on the sexual abuse he’s been accused of, and is quite detailed).

I've read this yesterday and I was physically ill afterwards. I could almost hear him say all those things, having watched his interviews and listened to speeches for years. I won't make a comment over every individual thing mentioned in the article, it's sickening but I am so upset. Not just with what Gaiman has done, but furious that Amanda Palmer knew what he was like, chose to stay in this relationship for whatever reasons of her own but didn't leave it there and practically handed him vulnerable women to exploit. Apparently she's refusing to testify or give interviews now.

Neil Gaiman has been one of my favourite authors, some his stories practically kept me going at difficult times. I'm heartbroken for the women who have gone through this, and maybe rather selfishly, I'm also angry that he has taken away a place of comfort from me (and from others I imagine) and tainted it forever. I doubt I can ever unsee what I've read on Vulture.

Edit: Apparently Palmer asked for "privacy".
 
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smartalec

Chatty Member
I would add to caution around men who are 'outspoken feminists', the ones who talk about going to therapy. You can see how he weaponises therapeutic language in his statement. 'Breaking the silence' is SUCH a goading, dishonest, weaponises bit of bullshit

In my experience many abusive men seek out therapist to endorse their behaviour (hard for them as many only hear their side), to pretend to be changing ('doing the work') and augment a nice guy imagine. I feel so frustrated when women say they want a man who goes to therapy like it is an insurance policy against being a bastard.
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Oh mark my words when I say that people will still stick up for Gaiman.
You’ve only got to look at how many people crucified Amber Heard cause they have a parasocial relationship with pirate man.
This will be the same.
There is plenty of that on twitter, although the platform is so rotten some is definitely engagement farming
 
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Tea_and_Biscuits

Well-known member
Is anyone mentioning the Jonathan Ross connection? Ross groomed his now wife when she was 16 and he was 30. Ross’ wife produced the film adaptation of Neil Gaiman’s book Stardust. Neil frequently stayed at the Ross’ house in Florida and met up with them in London - he and Ross shared a love of comics and were close friends. Ross was there and took part in the phonecall that Russell Brand made to Andrew Sachs about his granddaughter.
I went to 'an audience with' evenings around the time of the Stardust film with Neil Gaiman and Johnathan Ross was the interviewer. JR was very sycophantic towards Neil. I always had a suspicion that Neil had had an affair with Jane Goldman. I think Jane & Neil also worked together on the English language script for Princess Mononoke?
 
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VielleFemme

Chatty Member
I have only read a little Tanith Lee, she had some really interesting ideas. I really need to read more.

I think saying his work is a ' rip off' is a little bit of a stretch. Having a pale goth looking MC is not a unique idea to anyone. I think it it is also likely that some of Gaimans own appearance at the time went into the design , pale, tall, likes wearing black and with wild dark hair.

He writes a lot about mythology and gods, again having a same theme is not a rip off of another writer.

Sandman used a lot of different artists over its run. Different stories and chapters look very different because of this, it is one of the neat things about the comic imo. Gaiman is not an artist, he just wrote the story and scripts.

I think, if there were more clear evidence of copying, it would have been picked up by now.

When a writer/creator does something awful, people always rush to try and say ' well they were not that good, they copied xyz....' to try and help, but it is always a big reach. Like people who say Harry Potter is a rip off of The Worst Witch as they both take place at a magic school....because only one person is ever allowed to use a setting or theme.
Argh, I made a really long post on my phone yesterday about how the first Harry Potter book is quite heavily ripped off from Eva Ibbotson's 'The Secret of Platform 13', but Ibbotson was really cool about it. The whole post has disappeared! I had links to an article, and me banging on about having heard Ibbotson's daughter speaking about it at Jewish Book Week a few years ago.

I CBA to type it all out again but very briefly
- the portal between the normal and magical worlds is Platform 13 at Kings Cross station (!)
- the story revolves around a magical prince who's been abducted into the normal world
- he is treated as a servant and made to sleep in a cupboard with the Trottle family
- the fat, spoilt son of the family is called Raymond Trottle
et cetera.

It was published in 1994, about four years before HP came out.

I love JKR but there's no doubt that she was heavily influenced by Ibbotson (who is also a brilliant writer and was a fascinating human being).

I did actually think of the Worst Witch when HP first came out, but I think the similarities there are flimsy. But not with Ibbotson.

Eva Ibbotson, another Macmillan author, is a case in point. The author of eight children's novels, she won the Smarties Gold Prize this year for Journey to the River Sea, which is also shortlisted for the Carnegie Medal, the Booker of the children's world, which she is hotly tipped to win. Her novels, though always well-received, were not well-known until two years ago. They now sell 200,000 copies a title. Partly this is due to their being rejacketed, but the real impulse is that children themselves wrote in to the Internet bookstore Amazon to say the words publishers have been attempting in vain to attach to other authors - that "if you love Harry Potter, you'll love this." And they did, particularly with regard to The Secret of Platform 13, published three years before Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone. The similarities between the two are astounding: Ibbotson's novel describes a door at Platform 13 of King's Cross opening onto a magical world of wizards, ghosts and giants. The hero is a young boy who belongs to this world but who is ignorant of his true nature, and bullied by the grotesquely rich and nasty Trottle family, and made to sleep in the servants' quarters until magic comes to rescue him. Ibbotson would seem to have at least as good a case for claiming plagiarism as the American author currently suing JK Rowling, but unlike her, Ibbotson says she would "like to shake her by the hand. I think we all borrow from each other as writers."
 
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SusieTCones

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I used to follow Gaiman on Twitter back in the day. I keep wondering about the people he surrounded himself with--the personal assistants, the various hangers-on who all achieved varying degrees of social media followings...what did they see/hear/know? I'm guessing the employees are covered by NDAs, but still--yuk. And his adult children? I can only imagine what they are feeling right now.
 
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drunkwasps

Member
I listened to all the podcasts released by Tortoise Media. They were painful to listen to. Amanda Palmer is disgusting and entirely complicit in this situation.

The journal entry he wrote is so flat and dismissive. I believe he hired the same lawyer as Prince Andrew did, Andrew Brettler. He's defended some deplorable people.
 
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SusieTCones

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Scarlett Pavlovich has filed suit against Gaiman and Palmer. Court filing is linked in the bluesky post:

 
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Bread

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From what I can see, the judge said that the crimes need to be tried in NZ as that's where they happened. Not that they're believing or disbelieving them.
 
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frillylilly

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I listened to the podcast months ago and found it riveting. I felt it leaned more into the angle of consent within relationships and looked at how the law doesn't have a particularly nuanced take on that - but how it obviously doesn't mean it's right. For example, they had a lawyer say that the texts Scarlett sent Neil would make it hard to prosecute - it's unfair, but it's the reality of the situation.

I was surprised it was worked on by Rachel Johnson and it made me briefly think more of her - until she said some stupid comment about Greg Wallace, which was actually insane considering the topic of the podcast.

I do believe the women who've come forward and no matter what happens or gets 'proven' or prosecuted etc I think it's clear to see he deliberately targeted very vulnerable women.
 
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I have only read a little Tanith Lee, she had some really interesting ideas. I really need to read more.

I think saying his work is a ' rip off' is a little bit of a stretch. Having a pale goth looking MC is not a unique idea to anyone. I think it it is also likely that some of Gaimans own appearance at the time went into the design , pale, tall, likes wearing black and with wild dark hair.

He writes a lot about mythology and gods, again having a same theme is not a rip off of another writer.

Sandman used a lot of different artists over its run. Different stories and chapters look very different because of this, it is one of the neat things about the comic imo. Gaiman is not an artist, he just wrote the story and scripts.

I think, if there were more clear evidence of copying, it would have been picked up by now.

When a writer/creator does something awful, people always rush to try and say ' well they were not that good, they copied xyz....' to try and help, but it is always a big reach. Like people who say Harry Potter is a rip off of The Worst Witch as they both take place at a magic school....because only one person is ever allowed to use a setting or theme.
 
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