Lucy Letby Case #2

[I’mThankyou_]

I dont think so as the death occurred before an investigation took place. Ideally there should of been one. It was still an unexpected death but if the parents have chosen not to have one, that's their right

I could be wrong with this but a death after 24 hrs of hospital stays doesn’t require a post mortem if the doctors are satisfied with the cause of death?

Ive personally known of people who have had medical malpractice and I guess initially the nhs wanted to protect themselves first even if the parents had called for an investigation or complaint it takes a long time to be done. One case was done in secret courts and took 2 decades to finalise, the nhs protected themselves legally at first.

I guess this may also explain why it’s taken years for this all to come to court, as it’s potentially a member of nhs staff poisoning and murdering babies, the nhs may still be liable towards all the families.
[/QUOTE]
It's at the coroners discretion ultimately. But usually any unexpected death of a child triggers a PM unless they are satisfied with the cause of death. And in Babies E's case they may well of been.
The parents will of been advised of the risks of their twins being born at the gestation they were and the complications that could follow, which could be a contributing factor why they said they didn't want a PM to be carried out as they still needed to "go on" so to speak for their surviving twin.
Having been in the situation myself with my twins who were born at 32 weeks and one who was extremely poorly, had she of passed and succumbed to her prematurity I believe too I would just want to let it lie, I don't think prompting an investigation would of been the first thing on my mind.
Obviously, these are just my opinions having been in that position and being told that one of my twins may well not survive the first 24 hours. I guess as the trial goes on and the delve deeper into Babies E&F we will discover more.

 

[CELESTE CROCKETT]

I'm assuming that there is very little forensics as syringes etc will have been thrown away and incinerated at the time

 

[gummy-bear]

God the photo of her poor parents today has made me feel so sad. the strain they must be feeling - friends who have probably distanced themselves, their neighbours throwing judging looks, your whole life turned upside down. Probably trying to protect their child whilst also feeling huge devastating sadness for the parents who lost babies. Awful

 

[Tofino]

i think many people are focusing on individual details in isolation. On their own a lot of what’s been said could have an innocent explanation. But it’s building a bigger picture and the pen theory a PP mentioned stands out to me.

We’ve only heard about 5 babies so far but, if I’ve understood correctly, with all of them Lucy was the only nurse with/first to the baby at the time they had catastrophic collapses even though some of those babies weren’t even assigned to her. All had an unusual mottled rash that multiple experts say is consistent with air embolus. She has obsessively searched for the families on Facebook afterwards that people seem to suggest may be because she wanted to check the family is ok or just be nosy. But she is claiming she has no memory of it and can’t explain why she would do it even though she accepts the evidence said she did? Why not just say you were being nosy like many people on here have said. It’s a simple explanation to most people if that is genuinely what you were doing.

We sadly still have more babies to hear about but it would be rather unfortunate for Lucy if in 22 unexpected sudden collapse situations she was the only nurse with the baby or first to them at the time it happened.

This is looking like more than just co-incidence to me, it’s more than just happening on her shift. I’m prepared that more detailed evidence and defence may change my current view but at the moment I’m struggling to see an innocent explanation for what we’ve heard as a whole.

 

[cantinfluenceme]

I’m horrified at the thought that it’s not uncommon for nurses to look up patients on Facebook! Maybe they all need to think twice now it’s being used as evidence against Lucy for a murder trial.

I used to work for a high street bank and we used to regularly look up our regular customers on Facebook on our lunch break and have a good laugh at their profile pics etc.. id imagine it's common enough.. people are just nosey

 

[Tangerine Cat]

Am I wrong if being confused by this doctors statement? Apparently rare natural causes couldn't be ruled out IN THE ABSENCE OF A POSTMORTEM... but they said it was administered intentionally.. how can they said that when there was no postmortem? Why wasn't there one? Sorry but I won't be taking word from an 'expert' who's admitted that the rare natural causes can't be ruled out because there's no postmortem proof.

By 'they' you mean the prosecution? they are going to ALLEGE it was intentional, you need to be aware of the subtle differences Between allegations and facts.

there may not have been a PM because this was a child in the NICU who suddenly deteriorated and like the expert said, there could be natural causes.

She's an expert bought in for her expert opinion borne over many years of work and she’s looking at a case objectively from all angles, also she ‘acknowledged' fleetingly rare natural causes which makes me think she didn’t speak those words but it was suggested to her and she agreed.

i could be wrong but you need to read carefully sometimes….. remember the Ryan Giggs trial recently, his counsel SUGGESTED the reason his ex had her coil removed was to get pregnant by him. This then became fact which really pisses me off.

 

[IGiveUp22]

Re the PMs, I don’t have children & I can’t imagine having one born premature & needing care, going through the trauma of the birth & the worry your child isn’t going to survive & then being told they’re on the mend & then them suddenly deteriorating & passing but being told by medical professionals this can happen with premature babies…would I fight for a PM? Would I think someone could have intentionally harmed by baby? Would I think the one person that was keeping them alive were the one to harm them? I honestly don’t think I’d be thinking anything like this & would just be absolutely devastated & not want my poor baby to be subject to a PM.
My heart aches for the parents

 

[super grateful]

I think it happens far more than we realise tbh. I had a traumatic first birth, and I requested my notes afterwards, there were several things written that were totally different to mine and my mum (a nurse) recollection.
My child was admitted to hospital with sepsis at 18 months, again I requested the notes because things didn’t add up, and quite an important piece of information hadn’t been documented.

Do things get missed in the heat of the moment?

Not arguing with you here or talking of your personal experience at all - but sometimes what patients/family see/think is a “big deal”, medically isn’t. So yeah can be missed in note writing I’m sure. I make a conscious effort to write things like “mum worried about BP dropping, explained it’s due to the drug I gave and not to focus on the monitors, I’ll inform if something is wrong. Reassured as best as I can. Mum now happy”.

As a patient/family, often the ins and outs of what is happening isn’t their specialist knowledge, so remembering every little detail or focusing on something that “isn’t important” is bound to happen.

Sorry, I’m post nights, does any of that make sense?

 

[ldngirlxoxo]

I wonder why she wasn’t given advice to give no comment answers in police interviews I think her saying she doesn’t remember and not being able to explain or recall anything in answer to their questions makes her look quite guilty?

 

[nittygrittyditty91]

I used to work for a high street bank and we used to regularly look up our regular customers on Facebook on our lunch break and have a good laugh at their profile pics etc.. id imagine it's common enough.. people are just nosey

Wow, no that’s not cool…. A bank! Jesus.

 

[Hollie Day]

The Facebook stuff is weird. It doesn't sound like she was being curious or nosey.
She was a proper online stalker.
I wonder if she was hoping to see funeral pictures, pictures of parents and family crying, tribute messages etc, and was in some way getting a thrill from their grief.

 

[Stiltoncheese]

I wonder why she wasn’t given advice to give no comment answers in police interviews I think her saying she doesn’t remember and not being able to explain or recall anything in answer to their questions makes her look quite guilty?

She may have done in later interviews. I seem to remember in the Star trial that frankie talked more in earlier interviews and later went no comment, or perhaps savannah did. One of them did at least anyway, but only in the later interviews

 

[Tangerine Cat]

It really annoys me that court starts late, and has an excessively long lunch break

that’s not the start of their day though. The legal team will be there (or at their offices) earlier making sure they’ve got everything they need for the day ahead. Same when they’ve finished in court, it’s not the end of the lawyers working day.

 

[nittygrittyditty91]

Anyone else noticing a theme of twins?

 

[MmmB777]

i think many people are focusing on individual details in isolation. On their own a lot of what’s been said could have an innocent explanation. But it’s building a bigger picture and the pen theory a PP mentioned stands out to me.

We’ve only heard about 5 babies so far but, if I’ve understood correctly, with all of them Lucy was the only nurse with/first to the baby at the time they had catastrophic collapses even though some of those babies weren’t even assigned to her. All had an unusual mottled rash that multiple experts say is consistent with air embolus. She has obsessively searched for the families on Facebook afterwards that people seem to suggest may be because she wanted to check the family is ok or just be nosy. But she is claiming she has no memory of it and can’t explain why she would do it even though she accepts the evidence said she did? Why not just say you were being nosy like many people on here have said. It’s a simple explanation to most people if that is genuinely what you were doing.

We sadly still have more babies to hear about but it would be rather unfortunate for Lucy if in 22 unexpected sudden collapse situations she was the only nurse with the baby or first to them at the time it happened.

This is looking like more than just co-incidence to me, it’s more than just happening on her shift. I’m prepared that more detailed evidence and defence may change my current view but at the moment I’m struggling to see an innocent explanation for what we’ve heard as a whole.

Completely agree. Also that none of the babies were at all predicted to decline let alone so rapidly, they either were already fairly well or were all making considerably good progress until directly after interventions made by one person! Sometimes repeatedly..better then sudden decline, better and another sudden decline. Like you say with key presentations that were all similar and would all point to the methods they’ve detailed.. even large amount of air in one babies gut. When this is added to the Facebook searches, going out of her way to put herself at the centre of the care for these specific children and now her memory loss about key events around these babies that she deemed significant enough to remember to search their families up regularly.

 

[Milktray]

But it can be used in her defence. Them not being on trial doesn't matter if they failed and it can be used in her defence

Yes I know that and I think you've misunderstood what I was saying. I never mentioned defence. Alot of people mentioning hospital failings but I responded to say the hospital isn't on trial. Fact. The hospital will be under scrutiny and will potentially be under a separate investigation if families pursue.
This is just the start of those families getting justice.
We know the hospital failed and they will come out of this just as bad as LL.

 

[super grateful]

Am I wrong if being confused by this doctors statement? Apparently rare natural causes couldn't be ruled out IN THE ABSENCE OF A POSTMORTEM... but they said it was administered intentionally.. how can they said that when there was no postmortem? Why wasn't there one? Sorry but I won't be taking word from an 'expert' who's admitted that the rare natural causes can't be ruled out because there's no postmortem proof.

Being within ICU, stable or not, means sadly your chance of death is higher as at the end of the day you are critically unwell. (The use of the word “stable” is confusing within an ICU setting). Not everyone will require a PM, and often if it’s not absolutely required, families can say yes or no. Why put a family through a PM after losing their premature, critically unwell baby.

That’s all I can think of.

 

[CoffeeandCookies]

I wonder why she wasn’t given advice to give no comment answers in police interviews I think her saying she doesn’t remember and not being able to explain or recall anything in answer to their questions makes her look quite guilty?

I think you can look at this either way.
if you do a “no comment” interview all the way through, this to me always implies guilt.
You’re either saying nothing so that you don’t incriminate yourself or you’re not co-operating. By answering questions even if you’re not answering them fully it gives the impression that you’re tying to co-operate. Also a smart person, which she is would know she doesn’t have to explain. It’s up to the CPS to prove her guilt. We haven’t heard about all the police interviews yet but it sounds like instead of denying anything she has just said “I don’t remember, or yes I did do this (FB searched for example) but I don’t know why.
All of this works in her favour. There is also the possibility that she is innocent and therefore didn’t have any reason to say “no comment”

 

[catlady29]

I am so glad that I do not use my real name on Facebook...all my family/friends know its me, but thankfully won't have random doctors/nurses and bank staff?!? Looking me up...its weird.

 

[Bexx77]

I know an Auntie of one of the victims. It is a harrowing and devastating event which has affected the entire family and will do forever I would imagine. Supporting her sister in court after all these years is taking over her life just now. The thought of someone searching through their facebook accounts smacks of revisiting the scene of the crime. For me they may have, out of noseyness done it once, but not over and over and over without a real cause and looking for information. Rest in peace to all of those angels and love/healing for each parent and family.