Lucy Letby Case #13

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

Okay, I am going to try and explain why I think Letby’s messages to her colleagues were off.

She starts off saying how awful work has been. How the deaths have really hit her now she has been off work a few days. As soon as the colleague offers a realistic solution such as the counsellor Letby shuts it down immediately. She doesn't want to hear about the steps she needs to take to deal with her issues, she just wants her colleague to be sorry for her. When her colleague asks her the very reasonable question of WHY she won't go to a counsellor if its affecting her as bad as she's making out to be Letby quickly plays victim and goes "I can’t talk about it, I can't stop crying".

To me that is incredibly manipulative and also totally not true because she brought all of this up with her colleague. She just didn't get the answer she was looking for from her colleague.

When her colleague makes the next perfectly reasonable suggestion of taking time off Letby once again goes full victim and martyr by saying no "work is always my priority" and says she hasn't been crying about it until today.

To me that is, again totally manipulative, once she realised she wasn't getting any more sympathy from her colleague she totally back tracks and makes out likes it's not an issue.

I find it interesting also that she sends this message after she's been off a few days, is she bored at home, is she missing the drama and these texts are just her way of looking for attention but they didn't go to plan and her colleague told her straight what she needs to do rather than pander to her?

 

[MmmB777]

not sure about much except to say, i don’t think that her not wanting to go for counselling in and of itself is suspicious - purely because the times in my life when i have been through some extremely traumatic things, i havent wanted to speak to a therapist either despite the encouragement of friends/family, not because ive done anything wrong or am lying about what happened, i just felt completely unable to verbalise my emotions and didn’t see much point in it. in fact, I felt (at the time!) that it might even make things worse.

not saying it’s not relevant here, just some other posts implied that not wanting to speak to a counsellor was automatically suspicious

I tend to agree with this on the counselling front. I suppose though in a work setting it would be encouraged more and it paints a picture of her getting a lot of sympathy and attention for everything that’s going on that could potentially be a motive. For me it’s more the subtle anomalies and contradictions in what she’s saying in the texts and then again contradicting elements of police interview later.

 

[OldBlondie]

Okay, I am going to try and explain why I think Letby’s messages to her colleagues were off.

She starts off saying how awful work has been. How the deaths have really hit her now she has been off work a few days. As soon as the colleague offers a realistic solution such as the counsellor Letby shuts it down immediately. She doesn't want to hear about the steps she needs to take to deal with her issues, she just wants her colleague to be sorry for her. When her colleague asks her the very reasonable question of WHY she won't go to a counsellor if its affecting her as bad as she's making out to be Letby quickly plays victim and goes "I can’t talk about it, I can't stop crying".

To me that is incredibly manipulative and also totally not true because she brought all of this up with her colleague. She just didn't get the answer she was looking for from her colleague.

When her colleague makes the next perfectly reasonable suggestion of taking time off Letby once again goes full victim and martyr by saying no "work is always my priority" and says she hasn't been crying about it until today.

To me that is, again totally manipulative, once she realised she wasn't getting any more sympathy from her colleague she totally back tracks and makes out likes it's not an issue.

I find it interesting also that she sends this message after she's been off a few days, is she bored at home, is she missing the drama and these texts are just her way of looking for attention but they didn't go to plan and her colleague told her straight what she needs to do rather than pander to her?View attachment 1701719

If I could like this twice I would. Your interpretation makes complete sense to me, and you’ve explained really well how you have come to those conclusions

 

[paulpercy666]

So to clear this up in my head - and I'm not being facetious or wanting to start arguments - but what *is* appropriate texts to a friend/colleague and what 'should' they look like? Because to me they don't read all that badly at all. I could well see myself texting back and forth along similar lines, I just don't get what the missing parts is I'm missing (and maybe it IS me missing the mark here?)

yeah, i think i agree with you although wasn’t sure whether it’s just my own social ineptness that’s making things difficult it surely all comes down to context doesn’t it - if she wasnt on trial for murder then we’d probably either think nothing of it or just think she’s a bit wet, looking for a pity party etc? honestly don’t know because i actually can see where some posters are coming from but i don’t think the messages themselves are damning really.

suppose it’s the same as when people comment on her looks and how that can give us an unconscious bias. something like the bottom of her face isn’t as innocent looking as the top half? if anything it’s given me a bit of a complex cos im no oil painting myself so dread to think what would happen if i was ever up at court

 

[avabella]

Okay, I am going to try and explain why I think Letby’s messages to her colleagues were off.

She starts off saying how awful work has been. How the deaths have really hit her now she has been off work a few days. As soon as the colleague offers a realistic solution such as the counsellor Letby shuts it down immediately. She doesn't want to hear about the steps she needs to take to deal with her issues, she just wants her colleague to be sorry for her. When her colleague asks her the very reasonable question of WHY she won't go to a counsellor if its affecting her as bad as she's making out to be Letby quickly plays victim and goes "I can’t talk about it, I can't stop crying".

To me that is incredibly manipulative and also totally not true because she brought all of this up with her colleague. She just didn't get the answer she was looking for from her colleague.

When her colleague makes the next perfectly reasonable suggestion of taking time off Letby once again goes full victim and martyr by saying no "work is always my priority" and says she hasn't been crying about it until today.

To me that is, again totally manipulative, once she realised she wasn't getting any more sympathy from her colleague she totally back tracks and makes out likes it's not an issue.

I find it interesting also that she sends this message after she's been off a few days, is she bored at home, is she missing the drama and these texts are just her way of looking for attention but they didn't go to plan and her colleague told her straight what she needs to do rather than pander to her?View attachment 1701719

Thanks for trying to explain. I think it's hard to analyse the texts because they're purely in the context of issues relating to the case. There's no previous chat of the conversation between them. It's not clear if this was an out of the blue message from LL to the colleague, or a response to a question asked of her?

Also I've been in tricky situations and it's been suggested contacting Occupational Health etc, and I've always brushed it off. Sometimes just having a moan to my colleague has helped get thoughts out of my head - but now I'm paranoid I'll be seen as manipulative


For context, I work in a high pressure, sometimes very volatile setting. There's lots of political red tape and procedures to follow, not unlike medicine I guess. Lots of people in my life have said they 'don't know how I do it' and why don't I just find a new job etc etc. But even when I"ve been absolutely on my knees with work, I've never considered leaving. I moan about it, I cry about it, it despairs me sometimes, but I love it. Sometimes I moan in texts how hard it is, sometimes I celebrate the small wins. I guess we're only seeing one side of the texts and that could be why it feels off?

 

[OldBlondie]

I tend to agree with this on the counselling front. I suppose though in a work setting it would be encouraged more and it paints a picture of her getting a lot of sympathy and attention for everything that’s going on that could potentially be a motive. For me it’s more the subtle anomalies and contradictions in what she’s saying in the texts and then again contradicting elements of police interview later.

Yes like she’s SO distraught to her colleagues, but then can’t recall that in police interviews. I think this is why the prosecution are presenting it this way, hoping the jury will pick up on the small anomalies and contradictions. I think it’s all about the bigger picture, as a big part of their opening statement was about “patterns”

 

[candyland_]

She was so deeply affected by the deaths but she kept overly involving herself with the parents afterwards (!?) and she took a back seat in all of their care according to her so why is she so upset?

 

[paulpercy666]

just to play devil’s advocate, is it manipulative to confide in a colleague that you have been affected emotionally by a challenging situation and are struggling to come to terms with it? if she’s innocent, of course! my only point here is that the prosecution have much more compelling evidence than her texts, so in my opinion they don’t tell us much

 

[Wellthisisinteresting]

yeah, i think i agree with you although wasn’t sure whether it’s just my own social ineptness that’s making things difficult it surely all comes down to context doesn’t it - if she wasnt on trial for murder then we’d probably either think nothing of it or just think she’s a bit wet, looking for a pity party etc? honestly don’t know because i actually can see where some posters are coming from but i don’t think the messages themselves are damning really.

suppose it’s the same as when people comment on her looks and how that can give us an unconscious bias. something like the bottom of her face isn’t as innocent looking as the top half? if anything it’s given me a bit of a complex cos im no oil painting myself so dread to think what would happen if i was ever up at court

I would come forth with a good character witness from Tattle

 

[OldBlondie]

Sometimes just having a moan to my colleague has helped get thoughts out of my head - but now I'm paranoid I'll be seen as manipulative

Don’t worry I don’t think you need to be paranoid. I do think partly why we see her texts and convos etc as manipulative, is cos we think she is manipulative (as a person overall). I don’t know you but you don’t come across on here as manipulative (I know it’s an anonymous forum) so I don’t think your colleagues would view you as manipulative in txt or convo if you’re not an overall manipulative kind of person

 

[Unfluencer]

Hi all! Glad to see a place where I can discuss this case because I’m checking the live updates every day.

Re: the texts - it’s so hard to work out the way she communicates without context. I know they can’t do it, but it would be good to see in general how she speaks to these people about more casual things. She’s clearly texting a mix of different colleagues and I for one know that I am more ‘dramatic’ when I am texting some friends, more fragile with some, more honest with others….even when I’m sharing the same bit of news the wording will be slightly different for everyone. The texts are so ‘flat’ as evidence.

 

[paulpercy666]

I would come forth with a good character witness from Tattle

even if ive got a weird chin????
just kidding but i do find it fascinating how we all have such different interpretations. my a is numb from being sat on this fence tbh

 

[OldBlondie]

and she took a back seat in all of their care according to her so why is she so upset?

Ohhhhhhh this an excellent point, one I’d not even thought of

 

[avabella]

Don’t worry I don’t think you need to be paranoid. I do think partly why we see her texts and convos etc as manipulative, is cos we think she is manipulative (as a person overall). I don’t know you but you don’t come across on here as manipulative (I know it’s an anonymous forum) so I don’t think your colleagues would view you as manipulative in txt or convo if you’re not an overall manipulative kind of person

Ha, thank you! I work in a very specialist sector and sometimes wonder if I'm actually part it myself! Sometimes I am too black and white and see things pretty literally so was worrying I'd missed something really obvious. As time goes on perhaps it'll be clearer.

 

[OldBlondie]

Ha, thank you! I work in a very specialist sector and sometimes wonder if I'm actually part it myself! Sometimes I am too black and white and see things pretty literally so was worrying I'd missed something really obvious. As time goes on perhaps it'll be clearer.

This is why I like hearing what everyone has to say, none of us see things the same, and I think it’s always good to be aware of other’s perspectives

just to play devil’s advocate, is it manipulative to confide in a colleague that you have been affected emotionally by a challenging situation and are struggling to come to terms with it? if she’s innocent, of course! my only point here is that the prosecution have much more compelling evidence than her texts, so in my opinion they don’t tell us much

I think you’re right, and there’s much more compelling evidence to come, and we probs shouldn’t get too wrapped up in the texts, as it’s clear we all have different views. The reason I think the prosecution are presenting it the way they are though, is it’s all part of them trying to paint the bigger picture, all these little bits that don’t seem much on their own, but when you add them altogether it becomes much more clear about her actions and the relevance of these kind of messages. They seem to be basing a lot of their case on the patterns we will see emerge, so like another poster (@MmmB777) said it’s all these little subtle anomalies and contradictions (that seem minor atm), but in the end all add up to be a big deal

 

[MmmB777]

She was so deeply affected by the deaths but she kept overly involving herself with the parents afterwards (!?) and she took a back seat in all of their care according to her so why is she so upset?

That’s how I feel. There are subtle contradictions. She wants the sympathy about the babies deaths but she shuts down any shock or outcry that it’s all so strange fairly quickly and rationally compared to anybody else. Babies are so sick (why is her colleague in disbelief about all the recent events then) Why don’t some pull through..It’s fate. All of that seems incredibly OTT for someone that also just reels off a list of all ‘the different ways they died” (did they? Replies the colleague!)
The replies she gets are the most damning thing about the texts for sure - clear disbelief. clear picture of what a bad run Letby specifically is having (this was also said at baby a!) it makes it obvious to me that so far in this time period at least - it’s Letby that is the reoccurring feature of all these shocking unexpected incidents. If we accept her motivation likely isn’t violent (well ) or sexual and because a god complex/factitious disorder is more of a player in these kind of crimes, her seemingly seeking attention and sympathy would be of more importance.

She was so deeply affected by the deaths but she kept overly involving herself with the parents afterwards (!?) and she took a back seat in all of their care according to her so why is she so upset?

This is what I call a zinger. Absolutely this.

 

[Rippedjeanmaybe]

I’m quite a cynical person and I do tend to read into things quite deeply and to me those texts just seem off. It just seems a lot of fishing for sympathy & I find it strange how she always has to be the first one to tell her colleagues…

On top of that, I think the fate comment is awful. I just don’t understand why you’d say that…

 

[WonderShade18]

Unless we know how she behaved in work I'm taking her attitude to the deaths with a pinch of salt. 'i can't stop crying'. Unless that has been witnessed it's hard to know if that's how she reacted. She seemed to have got involved in/observed resuscitation attempts, as well as being involved with patients and families post death. I have seen nurses who have really struggled emotionally in resuscitation attempts, and have chose themselves to leave the situation or been asked to take time out whilst other staff take over. I get that people deal with traumatic events differently, but her actions on the ward don't correlate with her texts. Either a delayed reaction to trauma, or an attempt to manipulate colleagues.

 

[Daisydunn15]

So to clear this up in my head - and I'm not being facetious or wanting to start arguments - but what *is* appropriate texts to a friend/colleague and what 'should' they look like? Because to me they don't read all that badly at all. I could well see myself texting back and forth along similar lines, I just don't get what the missing parts is I'm missing (and maybe it IS me missing the mark here?)

Nah these texts seem totally normal to me and similar to what I'd send or receive from colleagues. I'm pretty sure it's bias which is fine, we're only human. Look at when those first few texts were shared and the reporting got the nurses the wrong way round, when people thought letby sent the texts as originally reported, she was calculated and cold, and then when it corrected the same was said about the other texts

 

[tennis ball michael]

View attachment 1701719

Todays texts, taken in isolation, seemed pretty normal to me, which was frustrating because I sort of want them to be building a picture for me of her guilt. If that makes sense.

I don’t think she was texting a colleague at the hospital in the above- I reckon it’s either someone she trained with or on a different ward or in a different hospital. They didn’t seem to know about the deaths and assumed she meant staffing. Problems or probing!

I can imagine peers I trained with being quite knee jerk in their ‘go to counselling/supervision’ response of you sound like you’re not taking it well. It’s different to colleagues you actually work with who you can have a good moan to.

I’d love to do a study on this tattle thread in terms of how the case is being experienced by the public in real time. So interesting and I’m so thankful for it