Lucy Letby Case #13

[I’mThankyou_]

When they have good care. This trial has uncovered a series of problems with the running of this particular unit that MAY have complromised that (not saying Letby isn't also guilty)

"there's not much left to learn"

That's the craziest thing I've read on here.

It's a statement, you don't need to be a dickhead fella over it.
Obviously there will always be things to learn, but when your making advancements that a child born at 22 weeks gestation can have some form of amazing quality of life I think you've learnt and advanced medicine a fair amount.
I presume you've never had NICU experience so I'll just ignore your pig ignorance at how amazing premature babies actually are.
For the record, my daughter was born at 720g faced some seriously horrific issues at the hands of sub-standard care yet she's here to tell the tale

 

[MmmB777]

Hope it’s ok to do a bit of a ramble (I’m sure most people that don’t like how I post have me on ignore now )

-if you accept Letby is there with an intervention before each of these near death/fatal events.. that would be hugely compelling if this was a more typical crime. If a man was repeatedly seen talking to female victims in the park they’re found dead say, this would be compelling evidence.

-If you’re inclined to believe that all the babies we’ve heard about so far (imagine how it will look by Q ) were so poorly and were likely to die or have collapses whether Letby was on shift or not..despite that being at odds with a)all the witnesses at the time- both in terms of what they describe medically happening for the baby and their disbelief (including Letby) that they died B) the view of the expert witnesses who are sometimes going as far as saying ‘there is no other possibility other than air administered’ c)the statistical data for the unit in other years - why do their crashes and deaths coincide with Letby being there. Why do they correlate. That is more than bad luck.

• Despite different circumstances making babies ABCD high risk, different possible other causes- obstruction/sepsis/size etc- why do they all crash in this extremely sudden way, why do they feature similarities such as sudden and unusual mottling, difficulty with resus, surprising and shocking elements that show that whatever was wrong had passed (baby c), were largely on an upward trajectory progress wise (‘but she was doing so well?!’, witnesses didn’t have major concerns, machinery wasn’t alerting people to slow declines etc, parents recognised they were improving. Why for the ones that survived whatever made them collapse so suddenly- didn’t show further that they were going to continue having these problems because it was some condition or illness causing them? Or does it correlate much better with a picture of sabotage - eg that away from the person trying to harm them (factitious disorder on to another) they no longer displayed this issue.
• Then when we think of the chances of all of that being able to be explained away each time and Letby’s presence is mere coincidence (I cannot see that as possible as it is perfect evidence for this type of crime) that’s when all the other information, searches, her inappropriate/insensitive/fixated behaviour becomes significant. The note becomes significant. The inconsistencies become significant. The police interview discrepancies and oddness become significant.

 

[Anol]

Hi, I've been reading this with weeks, I've never felt the need to comment until now, all I have to offer is my experience when my daughter was in nicu, she was born the day before her due date, actually only 20 mins before 8lbs +, it was known that she was mec 2, which means she pooed while in the womb, she was a bad colour when born so was brought to nicu, she had an infection, all she needed was an antibiotic, loads of stuff happened in between but anyway, there was one night, it's ingrained in my mind forever, it was 2am, my daughter was due her antibiotic, her designated nurse, I had already noticed her calling little baby's that I knew were a girl, saying come here little guy, I just didn't feel comfortable, then she had to give my baby her antibiotic, thank god for the 2nd nurse, her designated nurse made mistake after mistake, the 2nd nurse had to keep correcting her, she made 2 mistakes with the antibiotic, almost injected my daughter with saline, twice, then she made a mistake with the time, to let the next nurses know what time for the next antibiotic, until the 2nd nurse corrected her, she had given it 2 hrs later than she should have, you know what I did? I walked out of there, left my baby in their uncapable hands, cos my legs felt like they were going to collapse, I couldn't breathe I was panicking so much, i rang her dad but it was so late he was asleep, and then I went up to the ward, terrified of what was happening to her but I couldn't do anything, I've never felt so helpless, so I can definitely see how it could be a completely useless nurse, but, I can still see that nurse in my head, I could spot her now on the street if I ever saw her, years later. But I got 'that' feeling the second I saw her..

 

[Tofino]

Just had a fourth wiki page created!!! We are going to end up with the biggest wiki on tattle. I couldn’t fit child C on to the same page as child a and b. Just so many witnesses. Do you think this is working (volume of information) or should I start adding links to witnesses instead and keep the wiki smaller?


This is how it’s currently organised:

Lucy Letby case page contains live reporting links, opening statements and the child section where evidence is currently being heard.

Lucy Letby Case 2 page contains evidence heard for Child A & B (twins)

Lucy Letby Case 3 page contains evidence heard for Child C

Lucy Letby Case 4 page contains the child sections where evidence has not yet been heard.

 

[Deeznutslol]

As much as everyone else’s story is valid and important and bloody sad in cases - it derails the thread. Could personal experienced be put under a trigger warning?! No offence but I don’t want others’ sad stories, I’m just here for the trial. And some stories may trigger. Polite request and they do this on the jack monroe threads.

If you see something inappropriate which derails the thread or breaches tattle rules, report it and allow admin to deal with it. Otherwise I think there’s no point in asking for TWs on a thread where the subject topic is a murder trial of multiple babies…

 

[Takemetoyourbuffet]

The way she dresses and carries herself seemed very middle e aged to me too. I don't know what relevance it has but I recall thinking she's very fuddy duddy.

I get this impression too. She looks like if you cut her she'd bleed beige.

 

[I’mThankyou_]

I'm confused about why the doctors were so shocked that 800g seriously premature babies that can't feed or breath properly would suddenly deteriorate and die. Is that not why they were in ICU in the first place because they are at high risk of complications and death? They seem oddly determined in their evidence that this simply can't happen and the only explanation is murder. As a lay person this seems odd. If I was on the jury I would need a bit more convincing about the cause of death being deliberate and not a consequence of prematurity and/or negative effects of treatment efforts which has been suggested.

Because with the medical advancements we have its unusual for an 800g baby to die in the way they did when there were no obvious palliative conditions, and despite being born early and small they were making amazing efforts to sustain their own life.
Preemies will always be high risk and at risk of crashing but not in the way this little one did.
Being an 800g baby isn't a death sentence.

 

[Tofino]

I must say as someone who spent a lot of time in NICU and worried if we would even go home it is really lovely seeing how many with no experience of NICU have educated them selves and do not fail to give these babies creditSome posts I have saw on here come across that the babies were written off from the start because they were in NICU and they would have died anyway. Thinking off the poor parents

I must admit I didn’t realise until this trial how rare it was for premature babies to die. It’s so wonderful to know this though. What amazing science and healthcare we have in these modern times that the vast majority do make it home. I’ve no doubt it’s a tough journey though from everything I’ve read on here

I’m very fortunate to not have experience of a baby in NICU but it really upsets me when I see people write them off as being sick and premature as if that is the only possible explanation. I feel like it’s similar to gaslighting. I know we still have defence to come but it’s so important to really listen and take on board what all these doctors and nurses and medical experts are saying about the babies and the collapses.

You've taken it personally. It was just a reference to how fragile premature babies can be, and how much there is still to learn about neonatal medicine. I'm glad it works out well for most.

Why are these collapses not happening up and down the country if the reason is because the babies are fragile and it’s something unknown about neonates we’ve not learned yet?

 

[mRsKbRoOkS]

As much as everyone else’s story is valid and important and bloody sad in cases - it derails the thread. Could personal experienced be put under a trigger warning?! No offence but I don’t want others’ sad stories, I’m just here for the trial. And some stories may trigger. Polite request and they do this on the jack monroe threads.

See I disagree here, i don’t know if you were referring to me, but my experience (not sad) was linked to a question surrounding what is classed as common practice when a persons water’s break. To some not being checked over straight away by a medical professional, may be viewed as sub-optimal care, and therefore, failings within the unit. However, I believe it is actually quite a common practice. So while yes there were issues with the mother and she was poorly the delay in her getting assessed isn’t necessarily a failing of the trust. I think more times than not people’s experiences add to the conversation and can assist us in looking at things from a different perspective.

ETA - just noticed others have replied much the same sorry x

 

[IGiveUp22]

I know many of us are struggling to understand the collapses being shocking even after we’re hearing the evidence as it does sound like some of these babies are quite poorly. But even LL confirms in her texts that they’re unexpected. Every single medical expert that we’ve heard from at this point have all said these babies should have survived & they can’t explain it. Where I’m at right now is that ALL these people can’t be wrong?? Including the suspect herself??
So then we have the experts who have looked at all the babies who passed during this time period & all concluded these babies deaths were unnatural (likely others as natural)
So then they’ve looked at the common denominator in all these unexpected, unnatural deaths & thats LL. I can’t seem to get passed this right now & that’s without throwing in her behaviour with parents/texts/searches/the note hence why I’m still in the guilty camp

 

[Tangerine Cat]

Okay, I am going to try and explain why I think Letby’s messages to her colleagues were off.

She starts off saying how awful work has been. How the deaths have really hit her now she has been off work a few days. As soon as the colleague offers a realistic solution such as the counsellor Letby shuts it down immediately. She doesn't want to hear about the steps she needs to take to deal with her issues, she just wants her colleague to be sorry for her. When her colleague asks her the very reasonable question of WHY she won't go to a counsellor if its affecting her as bad as she's making out to be Letby quickly plays victim and goes "I can’t talk about it, I can't stop crying".

To me that is incredibly manipulative and also totally not true because she brought all of this up with her colleague. She just didn't get the answer she was looking for from her colleague.

When her colleague makes the next perfectly reasonable suggestion of taking time off Letby once again goes full victim and martyr by saying no "work is always my priority" and says she hasn't been crying about it until today.

To me that is, again totally manipulative, once she realised she wasn't getting any more sympathy from her colleague she totally back tracks and makes out likes it's not an issue.

I find it interesting also that she sends this message after she's been off a few days, is she bored at home, is she missing the drama and these texts are just her way of looking for attention but they didn't go to plan and her colleague told her straight what she needs to do rather than pander to her?View attachment 1701719

she’s definitely a narc, you’ve explained it perfectly.

I’ve voted 'unsure' this time purely from reading the tweets from merseyhack. It seems this mother was severely let down with her birth and her instincts were spot on that her baby should have been delivered earlier and she was unwell.

I don’t care whether LL was at work or not, there’s reasonable doubt for me with Baby D.

Another thought occurred to me In that we can either believe the unit was failing or that there is a serial killer at work in the unit, but the chances of both must be incredibly slim.

From what we are reading it’s obvious the unit had crap care so…?

My birth was ok in terms of care. I didn’t get the water birth I wanted and I pushed longer than I should have. My ears were ringing the next day and I have tinnitus, menieres and hyperacusis now, all stemming from then on. I think from pushing too long but that’s another story.

the worst bit for me was being on the ward afterwards. there just wasn’t enough nurses, especially at night. I was warned by a friend about one of the night nurses who was a cowbag, and sure enough I got her

my son was jaundiced and on one of those light beds, one night that nurse bullied me all night. Ordering me to breastfeed, pushing my sons face into my boob so his nose was covered and he couldn’t breathe. When I got on the bed she freaked out because I put my slippered feet on the bed and went on and on about ‘contamination'. then she claimed as I was 'starving' my son. About 5am I broke down and told her I was calling my husband to come and get me. She snapped he wouldn’t get in so I snapped back ‘I’ll let him in the fucking fire escape' well she went off and another young nurse looked after me from then on encouraging me to put a complaint in about her because this nurse was bullying all the younger nurses too.

In the end I didn’t need to as such, when the day nurses arrived they took one look at my swollen face from crying all night and there was a right to do. The head of somewhere came down apologising profusely to me, the bullying nurse got a warning and had to go on another breastfeeding course as well as some other sanction I can’t remember. But the damage was done. I stopped breastfeeding because I didn’t have the confidence anymore and just wanted to get out of there.

I remember being desperate from my hubby to arrive to sort everything out because I was exhausted and wanted to go home. I’d called him and told him what went on and when he came literally running round the bed I felt happier until he got to me and said 'Have you seen the news? STEVE IRWIN'S DEAD….. DEAD!!!!! KILLED BY A STINGRAY'!!'

Fucking husband of mine. I’ve never let him forget it.

 

[I’mThankyou_]

You've taken it personally. It was just a reference to how fragile premature babies can be, and how much there is still to learn about neonatal medicine. I'm glad it works out well for most.

Given medicine has advanced in such a way that a baby born at 22weeks gestation, can be saved & thrive there's not much left to learn.
It's insulting your giving premature babies less than the credit they deserve. They're stronger than you think.

 

[WonderShade18]

I think there's a nurse/healthcare worker of this fuddy duddy type in most settings. I've met so many! Frumpy, boring, old beyond their years, could never fit in with their own age group so clung on to the older staff, Kipling handbags and cath kidston lunch bags, not mentioning the Facebook posts with tags such as #workbesties

 

[friedeggontoast]

Every time someone says fellas, only one man pops in my head…

Jesus, Mary and the wee donkey… that’s who we need on the case!

 

[StatusWoe]

I only just caught up with the last thread, so apologies if these points have been raised already.

Thoughts about the texts -

In general, I don't find them strange or incriminating and I'm aware we're only seeing a selection of her messages. It's hard to get the full picture from these short exchanges. The most revealing texts are the ones where the colleagues mention how unusual the deaths were or how Lucy is always the one on shift. Saying ''Not you again? You're having bad luck!''and that sort of thing. The fact Lucy herself referred to the deaths as 'unexpected' might be relevant to the case.

Thoughts about the parents' statements -

I know other people don't have the same view, but I really trust the parents' accounts and think it has relevance. Tbh I trust them even more than the medical reports (Maybe I shouldn't say that? Lol). Thing is, this is first-hand information - they were there in person. I'm sure the parents have good recall because they're unfortunately such traumatic memories; the circumstances of their baby's death is probably replayed in their thoughts all the time. And remember, the parents giving these accounts are telling the court how they were feeling at the time - not how they feel about the care retrospectively, but how LL's presence made them feel in the moment.

It's been said that 'hovering' around a patient isn't unusual, but it's clear from the testimony that whatever LL was doing was making them very uncomfortable. Maybe she was staring at them intensely rather than just being in the same room - we don't know! I'm not sure this baby was even her assigned patient at the time? Probably not.

With Baby C, the parents recount feeling ''shocked'' at LL's abrupt manner when she said ''you've said your goodbyes'' and wanted to put their poor baby into the basket* (*don't know if that's the correct term). Then another parent recalls that she ''kept going on'' about giving the baby their first bath. That hardly sounds as if her presence was welcome. A different parent remembers being told their baby was going to die by a nurse who resembled LL, and they were surprised that she was breaking the news rather than a doctor.

So you have a lot of grieving parents who were made to feel deeply uncomfortable by LL's comments or behaviour. And even when these parents (who btw were basically strangers to her) made it clear they didn't want Lucy to be involved, she still searched for them repeatedly on Facebook, including a search straight after her shift ended, the same night their baby died. That is a total invasion of their privacy and a violation of boundaries. She hardly knew these people. None of this fits with the image of her being a star nurse, either.

Apologies that this post is so long. I just don't think what the parents described can be dismissed as irrelevant. Just my opinion, of course.

 

[stardust1]

If my parents suggested a family holiday to Ibiza I think I’d have their heads checked - and they’re both young for their ages. Happy to go on holiday with them, but Ibiza etc are for mates and couples. Also her parents don’t strike me as the living it up in Ibiza types. I don’t want to sterotype but I can’t see them dancing the night away in Pacha while LL shakes her booty in her Peacocks sequin vest top. Maybe she had no friends to go with. All her pics seem to be with work colleagues rather than say school/uni/general life friends.

I feel she enjoyed a browse in Matalan

 

[Wellthisisinteresting]

 

[OldBlondie]

Okay, I am going to try and explain why I think Letby’s messages to her colleagues were off.

She starts off saying how awful work has been. How the deaths have really hit her now she has been off work a few days. As soon as the colleague offers a realistic solution such as the counsellor Letby shuts it down immediately. She doesn't want to hear about the steps she needs to take to deal with her issues, she just wants her colleague to be sorry for her. When her colleague asks her the very reasonable question of WHY she won't go to a counsellor if its affecting her as bad as she's making out to be Letby quickly plays victim and goes "I can’t talk about it, I can't stop crying".

To me that is incredibly manipulative and also totally not true because she brought all of this up with her colleague. She just didn't get the answer she was looking for from her colleague.

When her colleague makes the next perfectly reasonable suggestion of taking time off Letby once again goes full victim and martyr by saying no "work is always my priority" and says she hasn't been crying about it until today.

To me that is, again totally manipulative, once she realised she wasn't getting any more sympathy from her colleague she totally back tracks and makes out likes it's not an issue.

I find it interesting also that she sends this message after she's been off a few days, is she bored at home, is she missing the drama and these texts are just her way of looking for attention but they didn't go to plan and her colleague told her straight what she needs to do rather than pander to her?View attachment 1701719

If I could like this twice I would. Your interpretation makes complete sense to me, and you’ve explained really well how you have come to those conclusions

 

[Daisydunn15]

Haha, I reckon if it was my photo up there the whole nation would have me pinned as guilty..I'm getting quite a complex about it too don't even get me started on my Google searches....I was googling serial killers last night on the back of reading about Beverley Allit and I was thinking if I was under suspicion for anything that would seal the deal

Oh god I know! Everytime I Google something now I'm thinking 'what if I'm accused of murder and someone reads this'.
I had to take my baby to A&E last week (she's absolutely fine, she toppled from a supported sitting position and bumped her head on a padded stool had a total panic, they must have thought I was an absolute maniac) but in my guilt ridden state I was thinking omg she's going to have brain damage, social services will get involved, the police will see I've been googling air embolism in babies and I'll be sent to jail

 

[I’mThankyou_]

Oops.. I haven’t clicked mine for a while. I think at one point I had about 12000
View attachment 1702666

This gives me the fear, almost suggests you're not a nice fella