Karen Read Case

[Libertine1975]

I'm watching on Court TV, channel 163 on my smart TV. Live from the court, knowledgeable presenters all very closely related to the law, with amazing interviewees, barristers, retired and active judges, police commissionaires etc. Astonishingly strong and biassed opinions voiced (for and against) that would never be allowed in the wishy-washy UK. I watched almost every minute of the first trail and I'm watching as much as I can of this second one.

I think she's guilty, but I think it was a terrible accident, and I think the realization that she'd caused his death niggled away at her and came later. Most women, if their boyfriend goes to a party and doesn't go home, might think he was in bed with another woman, not jump to the conclusion that he's dead in the snow.

I think the conspiracy theory is bull.

I'd like to see KR found guilty of manslaughter a) because I think she is, and b) because she's an arrogant, smirking, publicity-seeking, rabble-rousing, manipulator.

edited: to add smug

edited again: this time to say I watch from the start of the Court day which is 2pm here until I flake out, roundabout now!

Thank God someone else thinks she is likely guilty. I think it was most probably an accident and she didn't realise she did it or she knew she hit him but didn't realise he was badly hurt. The phone temptress data was pretty damming imo.

I know AARCA say they don't think John had been hit by a car but honestly freak accidents happen and I can't imagine it's easy to recreate the circumstances.

The conspiracy theory is just crazy, there is no way a group of that many people is going to keep quiet. So much has been made of people changing phones but so many people do change their phone every year or two especially I think, people with iPhones. The only person who I think acts weirdly is Brian Higgins and the disposal of his phone on an army base but also he is a cop.

I love EDB but was so cross with some of the comments about Jen McCabe and how she was conveniently forgetting things. She has MS (as does Karen) and was on the stand for 2 days. A sympton of MS can be some loss of memory. She is also likely very defensive because of the campaign by Turtle Boy who has obviously been in cahoots with the Read team. I mean if someone was accusing me and my family for killing someone would you be helpful/pally with their lawyers or would you feel personally aggrieved? It especially makes me cross in EDBs chat and remember her mentioning Karen's various illnesses and how the chat should take this into consideration before judging her...

The defence must be kicking themselves for letting Karen do all these media interviews. She won't testify and the Commonweath can bring in anything that she says that incriminates her. They thought they had the result in the bag last trial and have scored an own goal.

The investigation was totally fucked and I don't think John or his family will get justice. Honestly I just feel awful for John's parents and his niece and nephew. They have all been through so much.

 

[LondonCalling272]

ARCCA were available to the CW too they just chose not to use them so it makes even less sense.

If there’s another mistrial I think they will go again, they’ve tried people multiple times in MA. It’ll take a change of DA for them to stop I think.

 

[Alittlebitofme]

The ME also stated he had lost 3 litres of blood, where is the blood ? What they collected in red solo cups does not even nearly amount to that

 

[Kitty kat 20]

I really think she may accidentally have backed into him but being so drunk she hadn't a clue until later.

They are looking for another hung jury and mistrial and I think if I'm correct she can't be tried again for the crime as it's only twice.

 

[avabella]

What I’d really like to know is what do people who think it’s a cover up/she’s innocent think *actually* happened?

We’ve seen lots of timelines of map data, eyewitnesses, phone data etc, but no timelines from anyone that can explain an alternative.

Let’s say Karen dropped John off and he went inside the house (her first story). The group at the Albert’s house would have had no knowledge where Karen went to after that.

How could they have known she wouldn’t come back 10 minutes later? How could they have known she wouldn’t perhaps have gone to a friends house, stayed there all night?

What would have been the *actual* plan, had what we see today not happened? Lay him on the lawn, half dead and what…? Just wait it out? They couldn’t have said he got hit by a plow, Lucky said he didn’t see anyone, and John’s body was too far away from the road to be hit by one.

How did they know to leave John’s phone out in the cold to make sure the temperature reduced in the exact timeframe?

They couldn’t not have known that Karen’s car would be impounded to potentially plant pieces of taillight. They couldn’t have known she’d start screaming about hitting him. They couldn’t have known the car data would show a reverse impact at 24mph. And when the car *did* get impounded, how did they coordinate pieces being taken and dumped at the site, and embedded in John’s T-shirt? (Embedded, not just touched).

How did they get John’s DNA on the pieces of tail light? How did they access his body, with a piece of tail light, rub it in his wounds, with NO ONE knowing this? How did they coordinate this?

And this plan definitely couldn’t have been played out at 1am between a significant group of people.

So, in the absence of the stars aligning and just hanging them the gift of Karen, what do people who think she’s innocent actually think was the plan?

 

[Alittlebitofme]

Can not wait to see AJ crucify Jen on the stand today, well fingers crossed

 

[juniperroad]

I haven't had much time today to watch all the youtuber streams, but I did catch Brother Counsel's recap - it is pretty good and concise. It will be interesting to see what Judge Bev does with the crash daddies. And, I've gotten so used to watching at 1.5 when I put it back to normal it seems like they are talking in slow motion, lol!

 

[LondonCalling272]

If you're lying about qualifications in court, what else could you be lying about? Why didn't they just hire someone from Lexus Japan to go through the car's onboard computer?

Right, Alessi was laying the foundation for his cross. If he’s that happy to lie that easily what else is he lying about?
He, so far, has been worse than Trooper Paul who was the one who came up with the theory of John being hit and pirouetting through the air despite there being no injuries in line with being hit by a car

 

[juniperroad]

But, man, these interviews are going to really hurt her.

 

[karma4klattie]

That’s it, I don’t even think it was chosen to be Karen I think it was just convenient - there’s a theory that the call from Jen McCabe to Nicole Albert around 5am was to put John outside.

There’s a multitude of things that could have happened, the way the wagons have circled around Colin Albert I still think it was some sort of fight that went wrong and if it hadn’t been Karen it would have been Lucky Loughran.

But like you say we are just people on the internet and we don’t have time to get that deep into it.

Personally I think at first glance then yes you’d believe Karen did it but when you get into the shady things with the police investigation, FBI being involved & all of the lying going on, there’s more to it than that.

The two things can inhabit the same space............Karen did it AND it was a crappy investigation.

 

[Carpediem69]

Sorry I should have worded that better. There was no on purpose usage of his phone by him either a text/call etc. The Apple Health etc is wildly inaccurate so I’m not sure I’d rely on that 100% for data. Technology is scary though.

No worries - it’s great to bring these issues up as it makes for a good debate.

 

[avabella]

I reckon they were having a row, she tipped him out of the car outside the house and drove off, backed up fast because she'd come up with a parting shot and, purely by accident, 'clipped him' (her words not mine) causing him to fall backwards and hit his head. If you remember, Natasha Richardson fell skiing and banged her head, one fall, one knock and she died, sadly it can happen.

I'm sure about this. She was telling the first responders she's hit him, and when she and Jennifer McCabe went back to find him she said 'he was exactly where I expected him to be' (again, her words not mine). I'm very sorry for her, I don't believe for a moment she tried to kill him, it was a terrible accident and she should have faced up to it, but she was drunk and muddle headed and only put two and two together as the situation unfolded. Her failure was that having 'clipped him' she didn't go back to see if he was OK because at that point he could well have been saved.

I also don't think Brian Higgins had anything to do with it. In those text messages all I heard was her giving him the come-on and him being cautious and guarded in case she was taking the piss, and him not really believing that she fancied him.

What fascinates me is the arm wounds and the only suggestion I can come up with is that Chloe was put out for a poo, found John on the lawn and attempted to drag him by the arm. Problem with that is the complete lack of Chloe's DNA or hair on John's clothes. Was there any debris on the ground which could have caused those deep scratches?

He was laying on his phone, as can be told by the phone battery temperature records, was he laying on his arm or was it out to the side? Could the snow plough have caused him any hurt (in addition to scattering bits of tail light)? If the snow was so deep it needed ploughing I think it's extremely likely that the body would have been hidden and only looked like banked up snow at that point so I'm not surprised the driver didn't see him.

This is probably the closest to what happened.
Occams Razor definitely comes into play and the shortest amount of assumptions is more than likely the truth.

It’s similar in a sense to the Lucy Letby case - either *everyone* else is lying, or one person is.

 

[NarcRage]

I think this latest bloke isn't coming across well. It's a shame they've picked such a shit messenger to deliver the message. The prosecution should have checked him out thoroughly beforehand because the defence were clearly going to use every trick in the book to discredit him and his supplemental report.
With his 17 year long degree and padded Linkedin profile he comes across as a total charlatan and I hope this doesn't take away too much from the underlying information he is trying to get across but I fear it will.

 

[Alittlebitofme]

Wow, now he is just throwing his employer under the bus. They added his degree, not him.

I don’t think he’ll have a job tomorrow

 

[Alittlebitofme]

Interesting take away from the video clips played. Karen is describing how she arrived at John's house at 12.41am and the Ring camera picks up her car sensors going 'ding, ding, ding, ding ding' because she's getting close to the garage.

Why was her car sensors not going mad at 5am-ish when she left John's house and brushed against his car? Did she just decide to ignore the sensors? Or did she need a reason that her tail light was 'broken'?

Also - 'we think he died 12.30-12.35 that morning' - who is we? Time of death wasn't given until they'd gotten him to the hospital and warmed him up, then declared him dead. How would she know the 12.30-12.35 timescale?

And if the whole premise of your defence is that he was taken into the house and beaten up, and left for dead at some point, then it *couldn't* be 12.30-12.35am.

Deary me.

He wasn’t put out on the lawn until after 3.30am. When Brian Higgins ford edge was back at the property.
Even a nurse who worked on him at the hospital said they were the injuries from a fight and not from a 60000 pound car.

 

[karma4klattie]

Trigger event on car was 12:31. Last known movement on Johns phone was 12.32. She connected at close to 12.37. WiFi can stretch to the kerb I would guess.
Google suggests a 7 minute drive, I’m assuming that’s adhering to all speed limits. People on YouTube have done the drive in less time.

Two men from Court TV followed the exact route at the exact legal speed, they had to stop at two red lights and the trip took more than 6 minutes, however, one of the talking heads in the studio reckoned KR was probably gunning it and may have jumped any lights as it was dark and there were no other cars on the road.
They also checked out Whiffin's 3 hills which he'd interpreted as flights of stairs in court, and found no rises at all got registered on their iphones.

 

[Alittlebitofme]

Of course it matters, but if that’s the case then it’s almost much the same as it not mattering if someone has a bachelors degree or not, if they have the data knowledge. So horses for courses.

Edited to add: interesting you make the distinction that he’s not arguing against the police or witnesses, but against the experts - that’s the crux of a defence isn’t it, when you can’t argue with cold hard facts, attack the evidence.

how can you even compare the two, Alessi is an attorney who hasn’t lied on his CV. Burgess is an expert who lied about his degree and expertise.

I am not attacking the evidencethere has been no evidence. Why can’t the commonwealth find someone who can definitively show that John was hit by a car and left to die in the cold. Any expert that has tried to prove this has been torn apart by Alessi.

 

[Libertine1975]

So if we take Jen McCabe saying she saw the car at 12.45am then we can take from that that either;

- she’s incredibly stupid and has lied about seeing Karen’s car at 12.45, with no way of knowing where or who Karen was with (therefore easily debunking her time. This would be a massive risk to take as no one had any way of knowing where Karen was at that point).

- we know she *couldn’t* have seen the car at 12.45 because Karen’s car was at Johns house.

- so common sense and the most likely explanation is that she’s mistaken on her timings. This was a random night where I doubt anyone is really looking closely at their phones/watches while having a good time with their friends.

The whole ‘been beaten up’ story is just baffling. Firstly, why? Why would they? And secondly, a bunch of cops are going to put him outside on the front lawn? When there’s masses of woodland out the back?

The main argument against the he was beaten in the house and left outside theory is simple to me. That is why would you leave your victim on your own front lawn? Surely you'd leave them down the road somewhere or as you say in the woods.

 

[avabella]

People quoting “overwhelming evidence” must be watching a different trial to me.
I’m looking forward to hearing from the new accident reconstructionist, I think depending on how that goes it could be a real turning point.
The prosecution need it to be better than last year but let’s be honest it can't be much worse!

Did you see my video above of AJ speaking about how Karen and John got out the car at 34FV ‘to see if they had the right house’.

Not one person has ever mentioned Karen getting out of the car, not even Karen.

I’m wondering if AJ has data info that shows seatbelts being removed and doors opened, and he’s trying to get ahead of the curve, by saying she got out to check it was the right house, when really, she got out to pull that bit of glass out of John’s nose and didn’t think he looked ‘mortally wounded’.

There is overwhelming evidence, but it’s a case of if you are looking the other way, you won’t see it.

This reminds me of that case where the lady went into the river, and there was massive Facebook groups all blaming her husband, analysing every single detail of their ring camera footage, even down to what song was played at their wedding or something and twisting what the lyrics could have meant - when really, the simplest Occam:s Razor reason was that she went in the river accidentally, and what do you know… it was found she did indeed go into the river.

 

[SirHiss]

I absolutely love her! She’s so knowledgeable but also cracks me up with her reactions

Same!!! I listen to her each day and then Lawyer You Know in the evening for his recaps.