James Bulger - sentencing

[Be More Pacific]

Isn't it to stop a sort of vigilante scenario?

The police or government or whoever changes their identity know that there is a risk of a member of public dealing their own justice once they have been released. But that's not how our justice system works. Everyone charged with a crime should have the right to be judged in a court of law and shouldn't be subject to the court of public opinion or an individual dealing out their own justice.

I'm not necessarily saying that they received the sentence they deserved for their crime as I don't think that's for me to say, but it's not up to members of the public to decide the punishment or that they "haven't been punished enough". Changing their identity mitigates that risk.

That's exactly what it's for and exactly what Ralph Bulger and his brother were told when they tried to get Venables' lifelong anonymity order pretty much lifted in 2019 (or altered in such a way it would allow him to be identified from his recent past. It was always going to end in failure.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ther-loses-bid-to-overturn-venables-anonymity

 

[HelloStereo]

That's exactly what it's for and exactly what Ralph Bulger and his brother were told when they tried to get Venables' lifelong anonymity order pretty much lifted in 2019 (or altered in such a way it would allow him to be identified from his recent past. It was always going to end in failure.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ther-loses-bid-to-overturn-venables-anonymity

I think there's also a ban on revealing their identities isn't there? I think Tina Malone got in trouble for posting a photo of either Robert Thompson or Jon Venables. It's so expensive and each time a member of the public posts pictures it could mean that they have to change their identity again at the cost of the state.

The article you posted made my point in a much more eloquent way!

 

[Be More Pacific]

I think there's also a ban on revealing their identities isn't there? I think Tina Malone got in trouble for posting a photo of either Robert Thompson or Jon Venables. It's so expensive and each time a member of the public posts pictures it could mean that they have to change their identity again at the cost of the state.

The article you posted made my point in a much more eloquent way!

Yes, it extends to anything that could identify them - photographs, addresses, locations, workplaces. And even if the information you share turns out not to be true - so a photograph that's not actually one of them but you say it is - you would still be breaking the law I believe.

I really wish that bleeping awful gobshite Malone had gone to prison.

 

[HelloStereo]

Yes, it extends to anything that could identify them - photographs, addresses, locations, workplaces. And even if the information you share turns out not to be true - so a photograph that's not actually one of them but you say it is - you would still be breaking the law I believe.

I really wish that bleeping awful gobshite Malone had gone to prison.

Yeah I could imagine it would be against the law to release photos of someone who you believe is one of them but isn't, you'd be putting an innocent man's life at risk. Imagine if someone goes after the person in the photo when they're just a victim of mistaken identity!

Yeah, being fined £10,000 is probably not much to her, but at least she will think twice before she speaks up again (hopefully).

 

[Be More Pacific]

Yeah I could imagine it would be against the law to release photos of someone who you believe is one of them but isn't, you'd be putting an innocent man's life at risk. Imagine if someone goes after the person in the photo when they're just a victim of mistaken identity!

Yeah, being fined £10,000 is probably not much to her, but at least she will think twice before she speaks up again (hopefully).

It actually happened to one guy

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....id-calvert-jon-venables-facebook-jamie-bulger

 

[HelloStereo]

It actually happened to one guy

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....id-calvert-jon-venables-facebook-jamie-bulger

That's awful. Another innocent life has been affected because of people's need to deal their own justice.

 

[LittleMy]

I don’t buy this nonsense that they thought he was like a toy and could be fixed. They were old enough to know the difference. Whatever happened to them in their personal lives is awful, but they were absolutely cruel and evil towards that innocent little baby. Because that’s what Jamie was, a baby. A two year old wouldn’t know any better, but don’t try to sell it like those two preteens didn’t have a clue. Even my 5 year old knows basic right from wrong.

 

[Be creative]

I don’t buy this nonsense that they thought he was like a toy and could be fixed. They were old enough to know the difference. Whatever happened to them in their personal lives is awful, but they were absolutely cruel and evil towards that innocent little baby. Because that’s what Jamie was, a baby. A two year old wouldn’t know any better, but don’t try to sell it like those two preteens didn’t have a clue. Even my 5 year old knows basic right from wrong.

This!! 110% They did not for one second think he was a toy or the like. Venables himself in his secure children’s unit was heard saying to one of his appointed case workers, during a jest conversation about fighting, “bring me your baby and I’ll show you fighting” or something along those lines. I appreciate he may have cried each day of his trail and seemed to show remorse in later years etc, and yes, according to the law, he was simply a child himself, but this is the same child/man that tried to deceive detectives during interviews, reoffended and then reoffended again... for indecent and explicit images of children etc. Thompson may have behaved since he was let out, but in my opinion, that doesn’t justify their short sentence or protection from the public. Where was Jamie’s protection? Where is his justice?

 

[hypoharpy]

I agree. They were more than old enough to be able to differentiate between a toy and a human child. They weren't stupid. They made a plan and followed through with it.

Don't forget they attempted to take another toddler before they enticed James away. The other child's mother caught them. They knew what they were doing. Many other children have bad childhoods and don't kill.

 

[Tinkerbell cat]

I did research on this case back in school, can't really remember what it was for but I do remember reading how they had stolen model paint, batteries etc that day and used the batteries to put them somwhere in james body (can't even bring myself to say what they did with the batteries) and had put paint in his eyes, they dropped a 10kg iron bar on him, threw stones and bricks at him. I actually write that with tears in my eyes as I have a 4 yr old niece and a 5 yr old nephew and to think if that were them and how scared they would be, the pain they would be in and how they would probably be crying for their mum . What gets me is how trusting James was to go off with them, it actually breaks my heart to think what that poor wee boy went through. I am sorry but I just don't care if one of them has changed and hasn't reoffended, What they did was absolutely evil and I hope James' face haunts them both till their dying day.

 

[Wifo1976]

I did research on this case back in school, can't really remember what it was for but I do remember reading how they had stolen model paint, batteries etc that day and used the batteries to put them somwhere in james body (can't even bring myself to say what they did with the batteries) and had put paint in his eyes, they dropped a 10kg iron bar on him, threw stones and bricks at him. I actually write that with tears in my eyes as I have a 4 yr old niece and a 5 yr old nephew and to think if that were them and how scared they would be, the pain they would be in and how they would probably be crying for their mum . What gets me is how trusting James was to go off with them, it actually breaks my heart to think what that poor wee boy went through. I am sorry but I just don't care if one of them has changed and hasn't reoffended, What they did was absolutely evil and I hope James' face haunts them both till their dying day.

100% agree with this. Lots of children unfortunately have sad upbringings and experiences, but it doesn’t turn them into murderers and paedophiles.

 

[Rxt156]

The fact that they tried to take a different child first but got caught

 

[Cubalibra]

What i dont get is why witnesses who saw them just let them continue? James was seen crying, he was distressed and people who saw them, just let them continue dragging this little boy around.

 

[Be More Pacific]

What i dont get is why witnesses who saw them just let them continue? James was seen crying, he was distressed and people who saw them, just let them continue dragging this little boy around.

I think you need to remember this was Liverpool in the early 1990's. Different times. It would be very common to see young kids with annoying, tired baby brothers in tow especially in the areas we're talking about. Thompson & Venables managed to fend off everyone's enquiries that day, without arousing too much suspicion, because they were both accomplished liars. I don't think anyone could have imagined what would happen later in their wildest dreams.

But do you honestly not think that those people have to live with that guilt every day? They actually watched a toddler being led to his death and could have stopped it. Can you imagine having that on your conscience every day for nearly thirty years? Christ, please have some compassion.

 

[Cubalibra]

I think you need to remember this was Liverpool in the early 1990's. Different times. It would be very common to see young kids with annoying, tired baby brothers in tow especially in the areas we're talking about. Thompson & Venables managed to fend off everyone's enquiries that day, without arousing too much suspicion, because they were both accomplished liars. I don't think anyone could have imagined what would happen later in their wildest dreams.

But do you honestly not think that those people have to live with that guilt every day? They actually watched a toddler being led to his death and could have stopped it. Can you imagine having that on your conscience every day for nearly thirty years? Christ, please have some compassion.

Alright, calm down. I have plenty of compassion thanks.

 

[TheScarletgirl]

I did research on this case back in school, can't really remember what it was for but I do remember reading how they had stolen model paint, batteries etc that day and used the batteries to put them somwhere in james body (can't even bring myself to say what they did with the batteries) and had put paint in his eyes, they dropped a 10kg iron bar on him, threw stones and bricks at him. I actually write that with tears in my eyes as I have a 4 yr old niece and a 5 yr old nephew and to think if that were them and how scared they would be, the pain they would be in and how they would probably be crying for their mum . What gets me is how trusting James was to go off with them, it actually breaks my heart to think what that poor wee boy went through. I am sorry but I just don't care if one of them has changed and hasn't reoffended, What they did was absolutely evil and I hope James' face haunts them both till their dying day.

I heard they watched some banned films a few weeks before they took Jamie? Childs play being one of them .I believe there were things mentioned in court never released to the public.

 

[Herefortheteeeee]

I actually wrote a lot of this three years ago, on the 25th anniversary, but it still applies today.

I was 19 when it happened and living in the North West. I was actually getting ready to go out on a Friday night and a little boy's photograph kept coming up on the local news. I was struck by how much he looked like my brother, who wasn't much older than James at the time. I remember exactly where I was when I heard that his body was found on the Sunday, Valentine's Day.

I was absolutely obsessed about it. I talked about it all the time. I couldn't stop thinking about how much James had suffered, especially as rumours were rife, with being fairly local, about what had actually happened to him. It was almost like he belonged to the nation. Paul Britton described it in his book The Jigsaw Man as a melancholy fog that hung over the country and I really felt that.

Ralph & Denise Bulger (now Fergus) did a couple of interviews and the thing that stayed with me was that when they returned home to their flat, James' fingerprints were on their fireplace and she just couldn't bring herself to wipe them away. They also had a stillborn daughter, Kirsty, before James. It just felt beyond cruel what had happened to them.

I remember the trial and walking into the newsagents on the way to work and seeing the headline that his body had been cut in half by a train. I was literally rooted to the spot and couldn't believe what I was reading.

I followed the trial, although there was no live reporting on the internet back then, and I was very happy that they were convicted. And I wanted them hung.

I feel very differently now. And I'm embarrassed and ashamed that I ever felt that way about children.

I wrote a piece for my GCSE coursework in support of the death penalty and I never thought my view would change. I can honestly say I'd never met anyone who didn't agree with the death penalty until I joined Digital Spy. Now I live with a full on bleeding heart liberal. We had very different upbringings. He is more educated than me - I'm not stupid by any means but I'm from a very working class, Northern council estate whereas he's solidly middle class, went to university and is very liberal. He has never hammered away at me on supporting the death penalty but he asked me one question about it.....if you kill murderers, how does that make you better than them? And I still can't answer it.

You cannot kill children no matter what they have done. And you can't lock them away forever. I understand that now. But should they have served longer? Yes, absolutely. Eight years is quite simply not enough and in no small part why this case continues to enrage people and still make the headlines every other week. I believe Ralph & Denise would have been more accepting and less angry if they'd served longer. They also may have been able to find a small amount of peace, which I don't feel either of them have with the media keeping them riled up by approaching them for a sound bite every time something happens. I also cannot help but feel if they were able to put their points across in a less inflammatory way, Thompson & Veneables would have definitely served longer. She may deny it now but Denise Fergus wanted them dead.

But there has to be hope of rehabilitation for children. In the face of something so awful, so tragic, there just has to be hope. Thompson seems to have done better out of the two from the limited information that's available. And it's important to remember that the vast majority of what we think we know is just pure speculation. Venables is clearly still a problem. Ok, so he hasn't murdered anyone else (that we know of) but he has broken the terms of his life licence on numerous occasions now. How many more chances do you give him?

I've said this many times on here but I think the trial judge made a terrible, terrible mistake in naming them and I'm sure he severely regrets it now. I hope he does anyway. Because what did naming them actually achieve? Well, we got four photographs to look at and say "oh, aren't they evil". It has also cost millions of public money to protect them because of it. Interestingly, one of the junior prosecuting barristers involved in the case is now a judge and he oversaw the Angela Wrightson case in Hartlepool, who was murdered by two very vulnerable, very damaged young teenage girls. He chose not to name them and gave very detailed reasons why. I'm sure the ongoing fallout from the decision to name Thompson & Venables was a huge factor. The fact that rent a bleeps like Kelvin McKenzie, former editor of The Sun, and Facebook vigilantes fail to understand that it's down to people like them why lifetime anonymity is needed is certainly not lost on me.

But overall was justice done? No. Not for James. Not for his parents.

As the mother to a one year old son, I can almost guarantee that she wished them dead. She probably still does. In fact, I think that is probably the nicest thing she wants to happen to them.

What i dont get is why witnesses who saw them just let them continue? James was seen crying, he was distressed and people who saw them, just let them continue dragging this little boy around.

I remember watching a documentary and they interviewed one of the women who saw him. She says she has to live with it everyday and will never forgive herself. She was absolutely distraught.

 

[LittleMy]

As the mother to a one year old son, I can almost guarantee that she wished them dead. She probably still does. In fact, I think that is probably the nicest thing she wants to happen to them.


I remember watching a documentary and they interviewed one of the women who saw him. She says she has to live with it everyday and will never forgive herself. She was absolutely distraught.

As a mother of two boys, one who is around the same age as Jamie was when he was taken and very trusting of others, I agree. I’d wish them dead too after hearing the harrowing things they’d done to my baby. They should’ve been made to rot in prison imo. They’ve had all the protections that poor Jamie never had on the day they decided to lure him away from his mummy.
It’s probably lucky for them that the majority of Brits, especially parents, didn’t get a say in what happened to them.

 

[Cubalibra]

As the mother to a one year old son, I can almost guarantee that she wished them dead. She probably still does. In fact, I think that is probably the nicest thing she wants to happen to them.


I remember watching a documentary and they interviewed one of the women who saw him. She says she has to live with it everyday and will never forgive herself. She was absolutely distraught.

Are there any information about the boys background? I’m quite interested in knowing -about their upbringing.

 

[Be More Pacific]

As the mother to a one year old son, I can almost guarantee that she wished them dead. She probably still does. In fact, I think that is probably the nicest thing she wants to happen to them.

I don't disagree that it's a natural reaction. I made it clear in my post that, at the time, I wanted the same. My point was that, when I watched a programme for the anniversary, Denise Fergus said she had been willing to give rehabilitation a go (or something along those lines) when that was not the case at all.