Classic TRA post. Pretty much a form of bingo at this stage. Make a load of unsubstantiated claims, conclude with some emotive statement about hate and wrongness, refuse to answer any scrutiny by taking the ~ moral high ground ~ - “I’m not even going to waste my time pretending I have any sensible answers to your careful and considered questions that I can’t bull a response to” - fly off again with another screech about hate for good measure, feeling nice and superior. It’s like having a discussion with a particularly thick child. Same old same old.
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And TRAs will almost always accuse you of "hate" despite throwing insults and mental health slurs around themselves.
Agreed.
Going to come clean, I’ve had some really good civil exchanges and debates on Twitter about the trans thing. Generally speaking, trans women have been the most pleasurable and good natured to exchange with. They get it, but disagree with the importance of biology to womanhood. The TRA men and young women who are “cis” have been the most insulting, hypocritical and dictatorial scumbags who just knee jerk their way around thread after thread. Aint that always the way.
Yep, all the people who had an issue with me expressing my support for JKR on FB were "cis" and straight men and one woman. Do they realise how much damage they're doing to real trans people? They're turning the tide against them. I've been enjoying watching Blaire White as a nice dose of logic and reality coming from an actual trans person
The TRA brigade are terrifying.
One thing I keep waiting to be answered: what does it mean for medical research and treatment if the extreme TRA views are pandered to? How do we properly research diseases/illnesses which are, or may be, affected by biological sex? Is this something we’re just supposed to ignore? I’ve never quite grasped this.
I apologise if this has already been addressed - I have lurked for the majority of this thread.
Anyway, as ever, this thread is the only thing that reminds me I’m sane and that those shouting the loudest aren’t always the majority.
One thing I keep waiting to be answered: what does it mean for medical research and treatment if the extreme TRA views are pandered to? How do we properly research diseases/illnesses which are, or may be, affected by biological sex? Is this something we’re just supposed to ignore? I’ve never quite grasped this.
I apologise if this has already been addressed - I have lurked for the majority of this thread.
Anyway, as ever, this thread is the only thing that reminds me I’m sane and that those shouting the loudest aren’t always the majority.
I could speak for hours about this. In brief - it is a big problem for research and treatment. First, many life-threatening conditions present differently in women and it's commonly the male symptoms that are reported and raised awareness. Heart attack, for one. Many cancers, also. I'm not sure if trans people realise that being dogmatically insistent there is no record anywhere of their biological sex means these conditions could easily be missed. Second, this impacts research as if there is no record in healthcare of someone's biological sex and they choose to participate in a research study, they are going to bias the results. For example, consider a study looking at female presentation of lung cancer - if a trans woman enters, her symptoms would be different, which is going to muddy the results. Finally, women's health is already chronically underfunded. It's not considered to be a sexy area of research and women's health is not taken seriously in healthcare (I say this as someone who works in healthcare). The basics of women's health are not done well or properly. It takes on average 7 years to be diagnosed with endometriosis, we don't know much about PMDD at all, PCOS is still too difficult to obtain a diagnosis for despite an easy diagnostic procedure, ovarian cancer is underdiagnosed despite being very treatable. Yet increasingly I see funding grants awarded for things like artificial wombs, with a tokenistic nod given to the infertile women and homosexual couples this technology could help but much of the work focusing more on giving trans people the 'right' to have children. In my view scarce research funds should not be focusing on new technology to help trans women with such things when the very basics of women's health - I'm talking here, stuff that would literally keep us alive - are so underfunded and ignored. And of course, we are all expected to ignore all of this in the spirit of trans rights.
I’m not a fan of her Harry Potter books, but she is on fire on Twitter. I’m sure she doesn’t read but on the off chance she ever does, I’m lovin’ your work, JKR.
Omg I just love her. Every time I feel so down about all this she posts and I feel all inspired and tearful
I’ll be honest, I’ve been put off JK in all of this, because I don’t think she’s chosen her words carefully. I’ve read the entire essay twice, and I appreciate that despite being a woman (cus, if that matters) and calling myself a feminist I probably have internalised misogyny, which is something to recognise in all of this.
The bathroom debate bothers me - there was a comment earlier in the thread about (not direct quote) “what does it matter how few men pretend to be women and attack women in a safe space, it’s still too many” - but you can say that of every single demographic. The tiniest percentage of people who “use” trans issues to get an advantage are the same tiniest percentage of people who are going to do bad things anyway. If a man wants to attack anyone I’m not sure he cares what the sign on the door says anyway?
I also agree that there is an issue with female safe spaces being taken away, and in a world where misogyny is rife as ever (just take a look at the most powerful man in the world) there needs to be more done about it to make women feel safe.
I don’t think JK is a TERF and I don’t like that we (all of us as a whole) throw terms around when we don’t like the point being made. Same goes for Karen (although let’s not pretend that’s a racial slur, neither is Gammon) - we are all far more intelligent than playground insults, and if we’re not it’s not a conversation we should be partaking in because it’s wide and difficult and complex
But denying trans women a space shouldn’t be that answer either - neither should calling trans people mentally ill as has been suggested in here and why I didn’t come in earlier.
The world seems to believe that trans kids are just shoved full of meds as soon as they say “I want to be a boy” which is not even remotely the case.
I just feel JK kicked off an argument at 11 at night (which suggests a lack of thought to me) about something that didn’t need to be argued. What was wrong with the term “people who menstruate”? It didn’t exclude anyone and it referred to everyone the article was about...
The bathroom debate bothers me - there was a comment earlier in the thread about (not direct quote) “what does it matter how few men pretend to be women and attack women in a safe space, it’s still too many” - but you can say that of every single demographic. The tiniest percentage of people who “use” trans issues to get an advantage are the same tiniest percentage of people who are going to do bad things anyway. If a man wants to attack anyone I’m not sure he cares what the sign on the door says anyway?
I also agree that there is an issue with female safe spaces being taken away, and in a world where misogyny is rife as ever (just take a look at the most powerful man in the world) there needs to be more done about it to make women feel safe.
I don’t think JK is a TERF and I don’t like that we (all of us as a whole) throw terms around when we don’t like the point being made. Same goes for Karen (although let’s not pretend that’s a racial slur, neither is Gammon) - we are all far more intelligent than playground insults, and if we’re not it’s not a conversation we should be partaking in because it’s wide and difficult and complex
But denying trans women a space shouldn’t be that answer either - neither should calling trans people mentally ill as has been suggested in here and why I didn’t come in earlier.
The world seems to believe that trans kids are just shoved full of meds as soon as they say “I want to be a boy” which is not even remotely the case.
I just feel JK kicked off an argument at 11 at night (which suggests a lack of thought to me) about something that didn’t need to be argued. What was wrong with the term “people who menstruate”? It didn’t exclude anyone and it referred to everyone the article was about...
Same. She’s bloody brilliant for not backing down. If anyone wants to email her their support her email address is [email protected] It might go some way to drowning out the abuse she’s getting on Twitter.
Nobody is denying trans women a space. But why (as is always the case) do women have to shove over and allow them into their space? Because that’s what happening. Why can’t they have their own space?
Yeah I agree, and I don’t actually know the answer. Unless it’s female, male and unisex bathrooms for those that feel comfortable? Or single bathrooms? I honestly don’t know, and as I said in my post I am aware that female spaces are decreasing.
Neither side is going to budge so a compromise like male, female and unisex would be a good start. But there are plenty that are hell bent on getting into the women’s loos...
I appreciate your response and in many ways I can see where you’re coming from. Just want to address some of your points:
I think the point about a predatory male will attack anyway is a bit of a strawman. The issue with proposed self ID is that it will make it easier for predatory males to attack, and they’ll have a built-in get out clause if, for example, they’re caught in the women’s loos. In my mind, a similar analogy would be hens kept safely within a hen house, surrounded by wire - a particularly aggressive fox may try to get into the hen house anyway, and may succeed, but does that mean we’d remove the wire as it doesn’t always work?
I don’t think anyone is denying transpeople a space. Most gender critical women advocate for third spaces. It’s just that some women do not feel it’s fair to roll back their own safety to make room for others - it’s like being asked to put transwomen’s safety above our own, which is quire misogynistic if you ask me.
Re: trans kids, I don’t think the world believes that at all. There is anectdotal evidence of it sometimes happening, and there was a doctor who was shut down for supplying hormones illegally on the internet. Also, there has been whistleblowers at the Tavistock who have highlighted problems with the “affirm affirm affirm” approach. I think this is what alarms people and is where the problem lies. Puberty blockers can cause irreversible damage, yet many trans people declare them harmless. That is not ok.
Lastly, I think the issue with “people who menstruate” is that it is silencing a marginalized group - women. Many women are very vulnerable and rely on biological terms to describe themselves. I don’t think it’s fair for one marginalized group (trans) to enforce their issues on another (women), when women are still struggling to get the help and recognition they deserve with issues that affect biological women exclusively. From it taking seven years on average go diagnose endometriosis, because of patriarchal and misogynistic standards in western medicine, to girls dying in period huts in Nepal, women are affected by their biological sex the world over and taking the right to use the correct words to describe themselves to accommodate a much smaller group is simply not fair.
Many people of different races are recently complaining about being lumped together under the BAME term, as they have different experiences, and I think it’s a similar problem here. It’s very much like saying “non men”.
When the prostrate is referred to being owned by “people with prostrate cancer/people who require a prostrate examination” then obviously, nothing at all!
What are men doing to make room in their spaces for transpeople? I’d love to know
I don’t really have a response to this (in a totally non confrontational way) I just wanted to say I’d read your points and appreciate them - I don’t think it’s something either of us will change opinions on, but I did appreciate the perspective on “people who menstruate” because it wasn’t something I’d thought of before, so thank you
And yes, I also agree that men should be making room as much as women!
What annoys me most re the toilets thing is the people saying ‘if men want to hurt you a sign isn’t going to stop them.’ Like no, obviously not. But I’ve seen security throwing men (and I mean tall beardy extremely obviously male/presenting as male) out of women’s toilets on a few occasions. A few weeks ago, a Muslim lady was going into a toilet in front of me and her husband tried to follow her in - when I said sorry this is the ladies’, he left. If anyone can self ID as a woman this makes it so much easier for predatory men to walk in. We are not saying it’s necessarily trans women who will hurt us, or even that ‘men will pretend to be trans to access the toilets yikes who would bother to do that!!!’ because the whole point is with self ID nobody has to pretend to be anything. Any random man can loiter in the toilets and if questioned, can simply say they’re trans and we cant do anything about it. There is a huge difference even between letting trans women in the female toilets and letting people self ID. And the difference is so obvious to me that I feel people who deny it are either too stupid to function, or just hate women and don’t care about our safety.
I agree with you in some of the points especially the bathroom one. I'll admit, it doesn't bother me if anyone uses a female bathroom, I don't think a bathroom is some kind of safe space but I understand others may feel uncomfortable. Also, with some trans people it would really be hard to tell they are trans, like if I saw Blair White in the toilet I don't think I'd realise they're trans but with others it's more visible, would one be less welcome than the other? Maybe I just don't understand that much about it but that's my thoughts. However I don't think rowling said anything offensive and definitely not said anything to warrant the abuse she's now getting.
I also don't really feel great about the "people who menstruate term" - it doesn't make sense in the first place as there are plenty women who don't menstruate but were born biological women. But also because I am a woman and I feel like I should be called that without the need to add anything to it or change it. I also don't see what is so wrong with just calling trans women, trans women. This is who they are, is it not erasing their experience to somehow avoid saying they are trans?
In general I just think there are people with extreme views on both sides and some people try to make a very complicated issue into a simple thing that can be solved by saying "transwomen are women" and anything who doesn't repeat that loudly is transphobic.
Some of the most vocal people on the trans women are women platform are the trans women who have transitioned aged 40+. These are more likely to be the autogynephiles and for them transition is about being accepted as an actual woman by other women, there's a certain narcissistic element to it as well. So calling them trans women rubs in the fact that they're not actually women and usually causes hurt feelings and a tantrum.
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