J.K. Rowling #4 JK and the Goblet of Ire

[emmer_moans]

I just thought she was more left wing/liberal than she turned out to be. Which is absolutely her right.

Fair enough, that's your opinion.

I think political affiliation/ leaning doesn't mean you can or can't have an opinion of womens rights. You can be left wing, right wing or everything in between and still have an opinion on how women are treated unfairly... There are womens right supporters in the left, middle and right. And so there should be!

 

[AnderbeauJohnson]

I just thought she was more left wing/liberal than she turned out to be. Which is absolutely her right.

I think that she is left wing in the majority of her views but this is where things get confusing, left-wing and right-wing lines have become very muddled in the past few years - take the issue of homosexuality: is it left-wing to say that lesbians like penis or is it right-wing to say lesbians like penis? Is it left-wing to say that gay men are same-sex attracted or is it left-wing to say that gay men are same-gender attracted?

 

[HockyRorror]

I just thought she was more left wing/liberal than she turned out to be. Which is absolutely her right.

Standing up for women’s rights is illiberal in 2021 according to some

 

[emmer_moans]

I think that she is left wing in the majority of her views but this is where things get confusing, left-wing and right-wing lines have become very muddled in the past few years - take the issue of homosexuality: is it left-wing to say that lesbians like penis or is it right-wing to say lesbians like penis? Is it left-wing to say that gay men are same-sex attracted or is it left-wing to say that gay men are same-gender attracted?

Agreed, it's such a mess. Also political leaning doesnt mean you have to agree with every ascertion a political party makes.

 

[Lanavalentine]

I just thought she was more left wing/liberal than she turned out to be. Which is absolutely her right.

It is a common misconception that this is not a left wing/liberal view point. It absolutely is. Scratch the surface and you will find hundreds of women who have left left wing parties, particularly Labour, over this issue. It is a hot topic of discussion within lesbian rights groups, radical feminism and more. Many gay men and “truscum” transgender people (aka old school transexuals) also support this viewpoint.

Unfortunately, people misunderstand because it crosses over with the right wing view on transgenderism - see the links to both the very right wing drag queen and notoriously right wing/anti woman Blaire White above.

We agree on some points, but the issue is approached from a different angle - radical feminists and leftie women believe in sex as a biological concept, because it is the basis of oppression. This does not tally with the modern trans ideology.

Right wing people tend to reject transgenderism in the same way they reject anything that is not the traditional norm - they also have a lot in common with TRAs, hilariously, because both groups believe in stringent gender roles.

Lefties who believe in biological reality tend to reject gender roles. This used to be the basis of feminism but unfortunately the new wave of 90s “empowerment” and choice feminism left this behind.

Always happy to have a respectful discussion with someone who disagrees with me - you will find this thread is one-sided because most people who disagree with us don’t come back after we’ve given them our side. Many people have been hoodwinked into thinking “TERFs = Nazis” and any opposition to transgender ideology is automatically right wing, white, rich, religious people. It really isn’t, but rarely does anybody scratch the surface to realise that.

 

[Ensay]

I think that she is left wing in the majority of her views but this is where things get confusing, left-wing and right-wing lines have become very muddled in the past few years - take the issue of homosexuality: is it left-wing to say that lesbians like penis or is it right-wing to say lesbians like penis? Is it left-wing to say that gay men are same-sex attracted or is it left-wing to say that gay men are same-gender attracted?

Not sure I'd called homosexuality an "issue". It's just a natural variant in human behaviour - just like being left-handed.

The rest of your post confuses me somewhat!

Standing up for women’s rights is illiberal in 2021 according to some

I think I know what you're trying to say. I'm somewhere in the middle. I don't like how certain aspects of both sides have become polarised - from extremes like "all trans women are men trying to get into women's spaces" to "all trans women are women regardless of whether they've taken hormones". You know?

Anyway, apologies, I've realised this has stopped becoming about JK Rowling and more about other things which is my fault.

 

[emmer_moans]

Not sure I'd called homosexuality an "issue". It's just a natural variant in human behaviour - just like being left-handed.

The rest of your post confuses me somewhat!



I think I know what you're trying to say. I'm somewhere in the middle. I don't like how certain aspects of both sides have become polarised - from extremes like "all trans women are men trying to get into women's spaces" to "all trans women are women regardless of whether they've taken hormones". You know?

Anyway, apologies, I've realised this has stopped becoming about JK Rowling and more about other things which is my fault.

No apologies necessary, you are welcome to discuss, this is related to JKR as we have been discussing her. This is also a place to discuss her books etc.

 

[Lanavalentine]

Not sure I'd called homosexuality an "issue". It's just a natural variant in human behaviour - just like being left-handed.

The rest of your post confuses me somewhat!



I think I know what you're trying to say. I'm somewhere in the middle. I don't like how certain aspects of both sides have become polarised - from extremes like "all trans women are men trying to get into women's spaces" to "all trans women are women regardless of whether they've taken hormones". You know?

Anyway, apologies, I've realised this has stopped becoming about JK Rowling and more about other things which is my fault.

BIB - nobody says that. It’s actually the same argument as “not all men” - no, not all men are dangerous, but how do we tell which ones are and which ones aren’t?

It’s the same concept, because we do not believe it is possible to change sex (it biologically isn’t), and what does “living as a woman” mean anyway? Usually it comes down to an offensive gender stereotype.

I don’t believe all trans people are dangerous, neither do I have a problem with them existing. I support trans rights in terms of them having equal access to healthcare and housing, not being discriminated against in society, not being subject to abuse and violence.

What I do not support is their need to use women’s facilities. They are physically different from women, even when they’ve had surgery (which is not something I support - SRS is a hugely devastating con that leaves people infertile and in pain, but that’s another issue). They are physically of the sex that oppresses women via their sex (sorry, clumsy sentence!) and there is no evidence that shows the rate of sexual crime in transitioned male to females is less than in males.

There are also more issues beyond this that I am not happy about - for example, modern trans ideology is unfair to women in sport, is dangerous to children as they can be left with lifelong health issues from unnecessary medical intervention, and less importantly but still an issue, as a feminist I find that transgenderism is pushing a strict gender stereotype and binary, despite claiming otherwise. I am uncomfortable with that.

 

[HockyRorror]

Not sure I'd called homosexuality an "issue". It's just a natural variant in human behaviour - just like being left-handed.

The rest of your post confuses me somewhat!



I think I know what you're trying to say. I'm somewhere in the middle. I don't like how certain aspects of both sides have become polarised - from extremes like "all trans women are men trying to get into women's spaces" to "all trans women are women regardless of whether they've taken hormones". You know?

Anyway, apologies, I've realised this has stopped becoming about JK Rowling and more about other things which is my fault.

Sorry, when I quoted your post and said “according to some” I didn’t mean you, I meant “some” as in gobshites people on Twitter.

I’m also not the other poster you quoted but when it comes to trans, a lot of people, myself included, find it quite homophobic, in that people who are same sex attracted (especially younger people) are often shamed and demonised for not wanting to date or be attracted to the opposite sex.

 

[AnderbeauJohnson]

Not sure I'd called homosexuality an "issue". It's just a natural variant in human behaviour - just like being left-handed.

The rest of your post confuses me somewhat!

I'm sorry, I could have phrased that better, I'm a lesbian myself - I meant 'issue' as in 'political issue' rather than issue as in 'social issue'.


Many people (including Stonewall and several left-wing parties such as Labour, Lib Dems and the Greens) now consider homosexuality to be 'same gender attraction' rather than 'same sex attraction'. So nowadays the statement 'lesbians are sexually attracted to penis' is considered a left-wing statement and 'lesbians are not sexually attracted to penis' is considered a right wing statement.

 

[CheshireLove]

I liked the Harry Potter books, but I never really understood why she waded into the argument and kept going on about it at length. Maybe it's because she missed the notoriety she once had?

There are quite a few people who've got involved in that particular argument and almost all of their tweets are about it. You can have an opinion and state that opinion of course, but when most of your social media posts are about the same thing, it's perhaps time to look at whether it's doing you any good.

JK Rowling sets out why she’s interested in this topic in her essay here - https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/...ns-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

She says she been closely following trans matters for several years and has five key reasons for her interest; her work with domestic abuse charities and concern of the impact on this by moves to replace the legal definition of sex with gender; the effect of the trans rights movement on education; free speech; the transition of young women and the irreversible effects on their bodies and finally the consequences of current trans activism such as women like JK being called a bigot for wanting to protect single sex spaces.

I don’t think JK is in this for the “notoriety”. She’s never struck me as anyone who particularly covets fame. She has taken interest in something that affects women’s rights. Nothing odd about that.

 

[Ensay]

BIB - nobody says that. It’s actually the same argument as “not all men” - no, not all men are dangerous, but how do we tell which ones are and which ones aren’t?

It’s the same concept, because we do not believe it is possible to change sex (it biologically isn’t), and what does “living as a woman” mean anyway? Usually it comes down to an offensive gender stereotype.

I don’t believe all trans people are dangerous, neither do I have a problem with them existing. I support trans rights in terms of them having equal access to healthcare and housing, not being discriminated against in society, not being subject to abuse and violence.

What I do not support is their need to use women’s facilities. They are physically different from women, even when they’ve had surgery (which is not something I support - SRS is a hugely devastating con that leaves people infertile and in pain, but that’s another issue). They are physically of the sex that oppresses women via their sex (sorry, clumsy sentence!) and there is no evidence that shows the rate of sexual crime in transitioned male to females is less than in males.

There are also more issues beyond this that I am not happy about - for example, modern trans ideology is unfair to women in sport, is dangerous to children as they can be left with lifelong health issues from unnecessary medical intervention, and less importantly but still an issue, as a feminist I find that transgenderism is pushing a strict gender stereotype and binary, despite claiming otherwise. I am uncomfortable with that.

I personally think that if a biological man takes female hormones and has gender reassignment surgery then they're "living as a woman". That's not based on stereotypes; it's just that they're presenting as female as 100% of the time. In that scenario, I think it'd be almost cruel to force them to use, say, men's toilets for example.

I'm a biological male myself, so I accept that it's not up to me to decide the above (nor do I think I should) but that's my view at least. But I do have a great deal of empathy for trans people. I don't think they'd put themselves through all the ridicule they get if they didn't 100% feel like they were in the wrong body.

 

[AnderbeauJohnson]

I personally think that if a biological man takes female hormones and has gender reassignment surgery then they're "living as a woman". That's not based on stereotypes; it's just that they're presenting as female as 100% of the time. In that scenario, I think it'd be almost cruel to force them to use, say, men's toilets for example.

I'm a biological male myself, so I accept that it's not up to me to decide the above (nor do I think I should) but that's my view at least. But I do have a great deal of empathy for trans people. I don't think they'd put themselves through all the ridicule they get if they didn't 100% feel like they were in the wrong body.

I have a lot of sympathy for anyone who suffered from gender dysphoria and I (and I think most people here) would be more than happy to have male, female and unisex toilets (and hospital wards and prison wards and changing rooms and so on) so that if someone did not feel comfortable or safe using the men's toilet that they wouldn't need to do so.

 

[CheshireLove]

I personally think that if a biological man takes female hormones and has gender reassignment surgery then they're "living as a woman". That's not based on stereotypes; it's just that they're presenting as female as 100% of the time. In that scenario, I think it'd be almost cruel to force them to use, say, men's toilets for example.

I'm a biological male myself, so I accept that it's not up to me to decide the above (nor do I think I should) but that's my view at least. But I do have a great deal of empathy for trans people. I don't think they'd put themselves through all the ridicule they get if they didn't 100% feel like they were in the wrong body.

Can I ask what you would define “presenting as female” as?

We also aren’t forcing anyone to use toilets they aren’t comfortable using. I think there should be more facilities that trans people feel safe to use. But I don’t think a solution is for women and girls to give up their single sex facilities and feel unsafe because it makes a small group of people feel better. Single sex spaces are needed for so many reasons.

 

[HockyRorror]

I personally think that if a biological man takes female hormones and has gender reassignment surgery then they're "living as a woman". That's not based on stereotypes; it's just that they're presenting as female as 100% of the time. In that scenario, I think it'd be almost cruel to force them to use, say, men's toilets for example.

I'm a biological male myself, so I accept that it's not up to me to decide the above (nor do I think I should) but that's my view at least. But I do have a great deal of empathy for trans people. I don't think they'd put themselves through all the ridicule they get if they didn't 100% feel like they were in the wrong body.

Humans can’t change sex. That’s not cruel, demeaning or transphobic. It’s an irrefutable fact.

That aside, the vast majority of trans identifying people do not undertake body modification surgery. Such as Alex Drummond, who goes into schools to talk to school children about what it’s like to be a lesbian.

 

[Lanavalentine]

I personally think that if a biological man takes female hormones and has gender reassignment surgery then they're "living as a woman". That's not based on stereotypes; it's just that they're presenting as female as 100% of the time. In that scenario, I think it'd be almost cruel to force them to use, say, men's toilets for example.

I'm a biological male myself, so I accept that it's not up to me to decide the above (nor do I think I should) but that's my view at least. But I do have a great deal of empathy for trans people. I don't think they'd put themselves through all the ridicule they get if they didn't 100% feel like they were in the wrong body.

What does it mean to “present as a female” though? Genuinely, what does it mean? Are you also aware that the vast majority of trans people retain their genitalia?

I don’t disagree necessarily, I don’t believe that thousands of people are transitioning in order to be dangerous. However, you only need to look up some of the harrowing cases that have occured where transwomen have been sexually violent or voyeuristic to women and children in female spaces. Personally I’d like to stop this happening, and retaining female-only spaces is the way to do that.

I advocate for third spaces. I think that is the fairest situation for both transwomen and biological women. But that’s not good enough for most TRAs.

 

[judgejohndeed]

JK Rowling sets out why she’s interested in this topic in her essay here - https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/...ns-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

She says she been closely following trans matters for several years and has five key reasons for her interest; her work with domestic abuse charities and concern of the impact on this by moves to replace the legal definition of sex with gender; the effect of the trans rights movement on education; free speech; the transition of young women and the irreversible effects on their bodies and finally the consequences of current trans activism such as women like JK being called a bigot for wanting to protect single sex spaces.

I don’t think JK is in this for the “notoriety”. She’s never struck me as anyone who particularly covets fame. She has taken interest in something that affects women’s rights. Nothing odd about that.

Exactly this. I think it also has to be considered that everyone has to have a starting point when they become very interested or invested in a social issue. For example, when I was an academic I had colleagues who worked on disability after they became disabled, or people who worked on motherhood/fatherhood once they became parents. The idea that someone ought to be regarded with suspicion because they are ‘suddenly’ interested in a social issue is frankly bizarre. We are all uninterested until we are interested. I would say that it’s very normal and reasonable that someone suddenly becomes much more invested in women’s rights when another form of rights changes and so engages with ours. Why would anyone have really been worried about this say 20 years ago? Things have changed a lot.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

In my view people conflate liberalism and left wing. Left wing is about equal access to housing, food, etc. Trans rights activism certainly in the modern definition of 'trans' is nothing as useful as that- it seeks to remove women as a distinct sex class.

Anyone who has seen the Aimee Challenor shitshow unfold can now see that JK Rowling was right, we need safeguarding, for women and children. This new brand of trans activism under gender ideology is also harmful to genuine trans people

 

[Zenchick101]

I get that but I just question her motivation. I've always been a cynic, though.

That's fair, but given that everyone was saying TWAW, I think it would have been easier for her to just go along with it. Also she doesn't need the PR, video games, parcs are still made about HP and her books still sell well.

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

I feel like people who say “why has this writer suddenly started speaking on women’s rights” are just trying to say “get back in your box” without actually saying it. At least that’s how it comes across.

JKR isn’t a one dimensional person and has interests outside of writing, who’d have thunk it?