My head has just fallen off.
I thought it was all about biology.
That biology trumps everything.
That you favoured the description "biological woman" over cis woman.
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I thought it was all about biology.
That biology trumps everything.
That you favoured the description "biological woman" over cis woman.
Yeah, I've gotta admit that has thrown me a little too. Not wanting to be reduced to biology is fine but the phrase 'people who menstruate' doesn't do that at all. Surely it does the opposite? The people insisting when 'people' is used (cough, JK, cough) that the word is 'women' is surely reducing women down to their biology? At least more than the word 'people' does.
Idk. I thought maybe I misunderstood her comment there.
I think in certain discussions it is important to make a distinction between trans and biological woman which is why I have been using that term in this thread. However in day to day life I would just say I'm a "woman" not "biological woman" or "menstruator", same as many transwoman probably just say they're a "woman" unless the "trans" is relevant in that particular context.
I think replacing the word women is an easy way to sweep women's issues under the carpet instead of trying to tackle a patriarchal society.
I also believe there is a difference between a transwoman and a biological woman and what difficulties they face.
Picture it as a Venn Diagram, there's a circle for struggles transwoman face, a circle for struggles biological woman face, and an overlapping point where there are universal struggles. This will vary depending on extent of transition and also age, as for example someone who transitions at say age 40 will have grown up with and benefitted from male privilege.
I prefer the term biological over cis as some men who were AFAB and are still biological women will still potentially face struggles biological women have, such as period poverty. Again also depending on age of transition they will have grown up with oppressive socialisation due to their biological sex. I'm not offended by someone calling me cis and in certain contexts would describe myself as a cis woman not biological woman.
Similarly there are some struggles I don't face as I am not trans
I think the phrase "being reduced to my biology" is considerably more nuanced than it seems: gender roles and sex characteristics, though separate, are iterative. Women have traditionally been oppressed because their physicality (ability to bear offspring; generally smaller and weaker; generally inclined to nurture; generally menstruate) have led to restrictions which firstly, don't make sense in the modern world, but also perpetuate a sense that the feminine is somehow lesser (see for example the way care roles are paid less than construction roles even though both highly skilled and important to society). This is why anyone who presents as female is more likely to be a recipient of violence or discrimination from men. So I think the phrase "reduced to biology" reflects this sort of self-fulfilling cycle in which women are considered less.
And I agree with @RosePetals : the earlier screenshot from the prostate cancer charity was unapologetic about using "men" to reach their intended audience, despite the fact that even trans women who have had bottom surgery will require prostate checks throughout their lifetime. If there was parity between men's and women's concerns in how they were dealt with linguistically, it wouldn't feel quite so unfair.
And I agree with @RosePetals : the earlier screenshot from the prostate cancer charity was unapologetic about using "men" to reach their intended audience, despite the fact that even trans women who have had bottom surgery will require prostate checks throughout their lifetime. If there was parity between men's and women's concerns in how they were dealt with linguistically, it wouldn't feel quite so unfair.
Maybe biology wasn't quite the correct word - reduced to a biological function perhaps? For example I would find it equally uncomfortable for a biological man to be called an "ejaculator" or some such
Thank you for your replies on this topic; it is truly beneficial to understand yours and your son’s viewpoints in this area.
I think this IS an issue though; there is a particularly loud and vocal component (on Twitter and other SM) who advocate this use all the time.
Surely this is doing more damage than good? It’s naivety at best to feel that the “average jo/joe” in our country are fully on board and accepting of many of the concepts and terms discussed in this forum (cis/non binary etc) The lens being focused on this vocal minority stating that women isn’t the correct usage etc. May cause alarm?
I really don’t get this focus on menstruation. Not only is it insensitive to trans men who menstruate and non-binary, what about women with health problems meaning they don’t or never have menstruated? Fertility difficulties can be painful enough without a huge emphasis being placed on someone’s womanhood being determined by a regular menstrual cycle.
With regards to women’s shelter and DV safe houses, I can see how the issue becomes more complex so I could understand exploring it further in those specific scenarios but the majority of women are fortunate enough to not live in those facilities.
The opinions I’m seeing are from people who do not live in these places and are placing their concern on shared spaces like gym changing rooms and public bathrooms. I just think if you use communal changing rooms and get naked, the reality is you are surrounded by strangers. Yes they may be biologically “women” but you don’t know these people. Even though they may be less of a physical threat, a non-trans woman could still be watching you in inappropriately or getting a kick out of seeing people out of their clothes.
In my experience now, most gyms have cubicles to use if you want to change in private or if you’re really concerned you could use a toilet cubicle. If you enter a changing room and there is a trans woman present and you personally feel uncomfortable - utilise these options instead?
I don’t know any stats but I’m gonna guess male on trans women crime is far higher than the instances where these predators pretend to be trans women. Rejecting them from female changing spaces - would they be expected to change in the male changing rooms? I’m gonna guess that this would cause a lot more violence than allowing them to use the female facilities. We are so concerned with protecting women but trans women are so vulnerable in society already and we are willing to punish them because of what men do?
With regards to women’s shelter and DV safe houses, I can see how the issue becomes more complex so I could understand exploring it further in those specific scenarios but the majority of women are fortunate enough to not live in those facilities.
The opinions I’m seeing are from people who do not live in these places and are placing their concern on shared spaces like gym changing rooms and public bathrooms. I just think if you use communal changing rooms and get naked, the reality is you are surrounded by strangers. Yes they may be biologically “women” but you don’t know these people. Even though they may be less of a physical threat, a non-trans woman could still be watching you in inappropriately or getting a kick out of seeing people out of their clothes.
In my experience now, most gyms have cubicles to use if you want to change in private or if you’re really concerned you could use a toilet cubicle. If you enter a changing room and there is a trans woman present and you personally feel uncomfortable - utilise these options instead?
I don’t know any stats but I’m gonna guess male on trans women crime is far higher than the instances where these predators pretend to be trans women. Rejecting them from female changing spaces - would they be expected to change in the male changing rooms? I’m gonna guess that this would cause a lot more violence than allowing them to use the female facilities. We are so concerned with protecting women but trans women are so vulnerable in society already and we are willing to punish them because of what men do?
I'm finding it a bit difficult to express myself on this one I think.
Women around the world have been disadvantaged for centuries, and still are, due to periods. It is just one of many problems women face in the world. To try and erase "women" out of it is ignoring the systematic disadvantage woman face around the world. And as I said in my earlier post is a convenient way of sweeping women's problems under the carpet.
Women around the world have been disadvantaged for centuries, and still are, due to periods. It is just one of many problems women face in the world. To try and erase "women" out of it is ignoring the systematic disadvantage woman face around the world. And as I said in my earlier post is a convenient way of sweeping women's problems under the carpet.
ETA I actually don't have periods due a health problem and personally am not hurt or made to feel less woman for it
This was the picture Tyler Porter posted on social media from inside the Downtown Eastside Women's Centre in Vancouver. I can't see how to put it behind a spoiler without the thumbnail still showing, so it's the top picture here, which also has some of Tyler's tweets.
www.womenarehuman.com
Transgender-Identifying Male Boasts of Harassing Women in Crisis Shelter | Women Are Human
CA — Vancouver, British Columbia. Tyler Porter, a man who identifies as transgender, has publicly boasted on social media of harassing women at the Downtown Eastside Women’s Centre (DEWC) in Vancouver, CA. The Centre’s mission “is to provide a safe, non-judgmental environment for women from all...
www.womenarehuman.com
Okay but the majority are not asking for women to be called that? Just as very little people are asking for men to be called that. Like I said previously.
But in the context of discussions about periods there's nothing wrong with using 'menstruators/people who menstruate'. It's not just referring to biological women and it's not reducing anyone down to anything. It's just relevant for the conversation at the time. Just the same as in a conversation about.... idk, women who don't menstruate for example. Being called 'women/people who don't menstruate' isn't really reducing them to the fact they don't. It would be if it wasn't relevant to the conversation. For me I see it just the same as saying e.g 'people with depression'. they're not being reduced to the fact they have depression, but if it's relevant to the subject then it's important to mention that people do.
Oh I know that there is a small minority of people asking for the term to replace 'women' all the time, but they are just that - a very small minority. I think most recognise that it makes no sense to do that.
Okay but personally I think because of the systematic disadvantages periods cause biological women the fact that it is biological women who menstruate is always relevant. And as the original tweet was specifically about menstruation causing a disadvantage biological women was relevant to that tweet as it is just one struggle of many that systematically disadvantage women.
I don’t feel the issue is with M-F trans who are transitioning to live as a woman (with the removal of male sex organs) in my view I have no issue with these women sharing my space at all.
However, I do have a severe issue with self identifying -with no intention of hormonal or surgical intervention to transition to female- being able to certify and identify as female. Yet present very much as a male in changing rooms and bathrooms.
My personal reasoning on this topic may bias my view and I acknowledge this. When I was a young girl (around 8/9 I believe) I was subjected to male aggression in a public swimming pool changing room by two much older males. I was not physically assaulted but I still remember that feeling of fear and shame they caused me.
No, I am not saying (in any way) trans = more sexual threat. That’s ludicrous and wrong. I am saying predatory males ARE a threat and this gives legitimate and legal access to vulnerable women(“cis” and trans alike) /girls.
I mean I don't necessarily disagree but I personally also don't really think saying 'people who menstruate' was that much of an issue either. I personally thought JK was rude. Like my son said it's not really people saying 'women who menstuate' that bothers him and other trans people in his circle, it's people who argue when people say not only women do.
This is very very fringe as you are doubtless aware. This is not mainstream usage. No one is hesitant to use the term woman that I have heard of.There's also more extreme things like trying to use the word "womxn" instead, although of course I know this is a very small minority of extreme people and not something that will ever happen or that many people want.
Should women be spelt womxn?
A new spelling of the word women had sparked a Twitter backlash.www.bbc.co.uk
If there was as much focus on finding new words to describe biological men I think the erasing of the word women would be less of a feminist problem.
Womyn, wimmin - there have been discussions about rejecting the term woman (similar to herstory as an alternative to history) going back to the 70s and 2nd wave feminism. Were they attempts to erase women? Does everyone now use those terms 50 years later?
In some cases, getting access to hormones and being able to begin a physical transition can be a really lengthy process - I think I saw a tweet recently that a young adult trans woman (living as a woman) had been waiting almost 3 years to see a gender specialist through the nhs.
These people may be living as a woman due to being so unhappy living as their biological gender to the point of suicide. What can they do to prove to us that they fully intend to physically transition but they are going through the process and just want to live as a woman and be happy until then?
I’m sorry to hear you had a bad experience in a public changing space, I can understand why that would cause anxiety around the issue.
Some interesting stats about the disadvantages caused by periods:
Pretending this isn't a woman's issue does the women suffering from this injustice.
With stats like the above I don't see how it is possible to label this as anything other than a woman's issue.
- One in 10 girls in Africa will miss school when they have their periods
- In Rwanda, many girls miss up to 50 days of school or work every year because of period poverty and stigma
- A study in Ethiopia found that 50% of girls miss between one and four days of school per month due to menstruation.3 The impact of girls losing out on secondary education is huge: if all women had a secondary education, child deaths would be cut in half, saving 3 million lives
- Chhaupadi is an ancient period shaming practice carried out in parts of western Nepal....Girls are banished from their homes during their periods and forced to live alone in isolated huts
- In India, it has been estimated that as many as 1 in 5 girls drop out of school after they get their periods — and in some regions, like Maharashtra, that number is nearer to 4 in 5.
- Nearly half of the 1,000 teenage girls questioned across the UK said that period povertyprevented them from doing well at school.
A third believed it held them back from achieving their ambitions and goals and five per cent said that they missed one week per term due to being on their period. - Of the 52 per cent of girls who said they miss school due to their period, nearly one in 10 said it was a direct result of being unable to afford or access sanitary products while 14 per cent claimed they did not feel able to talk to staff at their school, causing them to stay home.
Pretending this isn't a woman's issue does the women suffering from this injustice.
With stats like the above I don't see how it is possible to label this as anything other than a woman's issue.
It definitely is sooo long for some people. My son has been waiting only a year and I can see it being much longer. It worries me a lot. Thankfully at 16 he's done most of his puberty so his body won't change a lot over the next few years if he does have to wait that much longer, but I worry about what he'll do to himself in the meantime. We'd go private so he doesn't have to wait as long but it's far too expensive.
Yes. I have since read that article and the statement from the shelter. I have also read that there was a legal challenge against the shelter but can find no credible info on this. I have not seen any statements from women who were also at the shrlter of the time outlining any issues.This was the picture Tyler Porter posted on social media from inside the Downtown Eastside Women's Centre in Vancouver. I can't see how to put it behind a spoiler without the thumbnail still showing, so it's the top picture here, which also has some of Tyler's tweets.
Transgender-Identifying Male Boasts of Harassing Women in Crisis Shelter | Women Are Human
CA — Vancouver, British Columbia. Tyler Porter, a man who identifies as transgender, has publicly boasted on social media of harassing women at the Downtown Eastside Women’s Centre (DEWC) in Vancouver, CA. The Centre’s mission “is to provide a safe, non-judgmental environment for women from all...
Tyler appears to be trolling or deliberately provoking terfs.
Stupid behaviour.
Evidence of harm or risk of harm - no.
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I haven't seen anyone denying these facts, or denying that women have been disadvantaged by periods? I mean I'm fully aware of it. I just personally still don't see how using 'people who menstruate' is that much of an issue and statistics won't change it for me. That's obviously just an area where I differ in opinion to others. But I still think very vocally responding to content that uses the phrase (which was their choice, to use the phrase) and say only women menstruate just wasn't fair.
So campaign to help those affected in Africa and Asia.
But, no, making life more difficult for trans people, women especially, is more important to some uk feminists atm.
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