Gender Discussion #34

[Lucy Aeroplane]

Hi everyone, I’m another poster who’s ended up over here from the JM threads. Kept seeing what I thought were perfectly reasonable questions (about whether she’s been wearing a trans identity as another cloak from criticism) being deleted - even though they seemed like completely fair questions, in the context of someone who lies about or weaponises every aspect of their identity, including stuff I know for a fact is BS, namely her social class stuff. Mods kept telling posters to come over here if they wanted to discuss it, so eventually I did come and lurk on this thread for a bit.

I had no idea about a lot of the stuff that’s discussed here. I’ve always been a very “live and let live” sort of person (I’m diagnosed autistic and ADHD, so have been on the receiving end of plenty of bad judgmental takes myself in my lifetime, and therefore I don’t really bother judging other people).

My professional specialism hasn’t really been affected by a push on gender stuff so far, (although I do get a bit annoyed when the word gender is substituted for sex, when the data we need for what we do is sex). I’m a working single mum and am busy busy busy most of the time. I’m not big on social media and never really use my social media accounts - I prefer to unwind with TV, or music and books, instead of internet. Or at least I did, until one day I googled whether anyone else actually knew Jack Monroe was full of shit, and ended up on Tattle

I’ve never been into Harry Potter so never actually paid attention to what people were saying about JKR, like, I was aware there was some sort of controversy but just dismissed it as one of those sort of overblown internet furores that I can’t be bothered to waste energy on.

IRL I know a couple of transwomen who have always seemed like perfectly nice ordinary people, have had all the surgery and everything, and blend in rather than try to be the centre of attention. Both are over 50, one has a wife who stayed with her after she transitioned, the other one has an older male partner (not married, but they’re long-term and happy together). And that’s pretty much been the extent of my interaction with transgender people - so theres never been anything remarkable, and there’s certainly been nothing to make me question the concept.

So I’ve never really realised there was anything to be concerned about till recently. And being totally honest, if I’d had a strong position on trans stuff at all, I would probably have been on the “other” side, the side that thinks “terfs” are evil.

Anyway, I’ve been lurking here on and off around couple of months now I think, and there’s some gender/trans stuff posted on these threads that’s been frankly so unbelievable (sorry but it is!) that I’ve had to go and cross check it with other sources, and it turns out it’s actually all TRUE. And it also turns out there’s much worse stuff, too. Recently I’ve had a couple of weeks off work so have had more time to look into it all.

Detransitioners are totally breaking my heart, it’s so bad, how can any of that be ethical at all? And the whole Mermaids pweirdo stuff is just blowing my damn mind, seriously, a charity whose target audience is children has trustees who are p*edo apologists/enablers (at least) and amateur weird porn models (that collage of Darren Mew made me ), wtf, I just can’t get my head round how distanced from reality they must be to have thought that is okay. And I realise now that I’ve always taken for granted my right - and my kids’ rights - to single sex spaces for safety. And that’s now been taken away, but nobody checked whether it was okay with those of us who actually need single sex spaces.

So yeah now I am pretty concerned.

I’ll stop there for now because this is already verging on an essay, but I could go on for ages. But thanks for discussing this with references and links, I’ve really had my eyes opened. (And thanks to JM for bringing me here in the first place, I guess.)

 

[Icing _on_ the_cake]

I was really shocked when I first came across this thread. I was expecting woke little Millenials like myself and then I was like " these are TERFs'. Didn't look for ages, then got curious but mostly with the thoughts of 'well we should understand their concerns so we can show they don't need to be worried' and then found myself being convinced the other way!

My views have quite solidified since peaking in late 2020. I don't use non-factual pronouns as they obfuscate the issues. Saying that teenage transgirls are being banned from women's sports sounds like everyone's being a big meanie. Switch it to teenage boys being banned from women's sport however and then everyone understands the issue. As for pronouns, being 'kind.' I ask, who are you being kind to? You are not kind to women in prisons, women facing their abusers and rapists in court, or transwidows. I stand with women. I'll be kind to the men when they start being kind to us.

 

[Notworthy]

Social media really has given people the impression they're the main character in other people's lives . Nobody is looking at or making assumptions about that run of the mill heterosexual couple.

It's pervasive in Society, I was listening to Jeremy Vines lunch show on BBC2 and he had a Bisexual man on there who is with a Woman and this Man was talking about how invisible bisexuality is, if he is walking down the street with his girlfriend, no one is thinking he is bisexual, they're thinking he is straight. No mate, no one is giving so much as a fleeting thought about who you like to fuck, we're just walking down the same fucking street as you. I don't walk past people and wonder about a single thing in their lives, I barely recognise they're even there unless I'm on a collision course with them.

 

[Ensay]

My workplace has just announced today that we can add pronouns to our email signatures if we want to. But they did say there's no pressure or expectation to do so.

Which is just as well because I won't be adding them. If colleagues can't tell I'm a man from my face and name, they need an urgent visit to Specsavers.

 

[nothanksbabes]

Roundup of the last thread, off the top of my head.

- Mermaids, the charity who thinks gender non-conforming kids are transgender and should be medicated accordingly, took LGB Alliance to court to try and strip it of its charity status, because any group that doesn't explicitly include transgender people is a "hate group", even if set up by and for LGB people. The court transcripts are embarassing (for Mermaids) as, unsurpsingly, gender ideology does not stand up to logical scrutiny. No result yet.

- The above has led to some scrutiny of Mermaids, who it was discovered had been sending breast binders to children without their parents' knowledge or consent, and Mermaids' forum moderators had been encouraging young forum users to take conversations onto Discord, totally throwing child safeguarding out of the window. The Telegraph are onto this.

- It was then discovered that one of Mermaids' trustees is an academic with a history of writing about his sexual interest in children over a series of blog posts, and had done talks for paedophile-sympathising groups. Somehow, TRAs on Twitter are still defending this.

- Swivel eyed cross-dressing former gay male and attention-seeking Tik Tokker Dylan Mulvaney, who has been an embarassing cariacature of "a woman" for approximately 13 seconds, was invited to speak at the Forbes Power Women's Summit. Comments online were pleasingly disapproving.

- Canadian trans teacher Kayla Lemieux hit the press for working in a school while wearing obscenely large prosthetic anime breasts complete with giant erect nipples you could hang your coat on. Rumour has it he's a disgruntled man, who, tired of the proliferation of gender ideology and being reprimanded for "toxic masculinity", decided to take the piss and see if anyone would step in. How true that is remains to be seen - either that or he's an AGP left unchecked, as per.

- There have been reports of women being harassed in Primark fitting rooms since they've been made gender-neutral. Primark's response to this, is to divide them into men's and women's again, but say a woman is anyone who identifies as one, thus changing precisely nothing.

- Sussex Police came under fire for reporting on the conviction of a male paedophile who'd abused several children using his preferred pronouns, then doubling down and saying his "gender identity" was irrelevant and any "hate" (from women correctly pointing out the n*nce is in fact male) would be investigated. They got a telling from the Home Secretary and had to apologise.

- Veteran campaigner and Stonewall riots participant Fred Sargent was assaulted by trans activists, despite the fact he literally started the gay rights movement as we know it.

That was longer than expected and I've definitely forgotten something . All in all it did feel like the tide has started to turn recently though... I guess we'll see.

 

[Miss_cici]

Does anyone else follow Laetitia Ky? She speaks a lot on sex-based oppression, particularly in African countries, and she makes amazing art structures out of her hair.

Her recent post is great, lots of interesting comments on pronouns.

 

[knickerbocker glory]

Am so angry right now. My adult birthed human has asked for their inheritance money early (!) to pay for top surgery (from their very elderly grandparents (in their 90’s).
I’m shaking as I’ve just clicked why they want the money.
im so fucking pissed off!!

 

[el_coochita]

These threads can be hard to read through as honestly, I'm at a point with transactivism where I inherently mistrust more or less 100% of them and genuinely believe it's a toxic combination of male sexual entitlement with the sinister corporate backing of those who would seek to eliminate any trace of effective working-class political mobilization. I'm in the US where much of this is absolutely bleeding outwards from, and it's not lost on me that voters here are essentially trapped between a rock and a hard place when it comes to the Democratic vs Republican two-party system. It's either the Christian right who think women are human incubators, or the looney "left" who couldn't answer the question of what a woman is if their lives depended on it. As a sort of homeless left-of-centre sort myself, I feel like I'm the one taking crazy pills half the time these days, it's so bizarre to be so utterly surrounded by it. Thankfully my DH is on the same page as me politically and is a very staunch supporter of women's lib himself, as if I didn't have him to talk to about it I think I'd have gone mad by now.

We have one of those disgusting kid's drag shows occurring near us some time soon, and he was telling me that on all of the posts on social media about it, the response to any critics of the event was dismissive of the possibility that this was sexual exploitation of a child as that is apparently the type of thing only done by priests. It occurred to me that this is incredibly ironic as a way to dismiss such criticism, due to my nationality (from Ireland originally). They manage to miss the point so spectacularly it's incredible, really, but so typical of them. I'm old enough to somewhat remember the public tide really turning on the church in Ireland in the 90s as a result of the spiralling child sex abuse scandal, and like most Irish people my extended family includes several victims of the "hush-hush" culture on pweirdo priests of the preceding decades. The stupidity of people, thinking that the groomers among the "tolerant left" of today are any different just because they don't wear cassocks is utterly stunning to me.

Paedos have sadly always existed - there has always been a disgusting subset of adults who harbor sexual feelings towards children, for whatever reason. Why they do, IMO, is beside the point - we know that they have existed, across time and space, in basically every human culture, to varying degrees of tolerance and/or consternation from the rest of us. Ireland was not crawling with kiddy fiddlers for decades because there is some kind of inherent tendency towards paedophilia among Catholic priests, or because seminaries specifically teach you to molest children. It happened because in Ireland, we allowed a culture to be fomented that permitted for a special caste of persons who were above suspicion or reproach. For a very long time, the Catholic church was simply considered to be off-limits for public criticism. No matter how much you knew, or how many people knew, or how many Soviet parades' worth of red flags your local priest threw up, you could not say anything. Anyone attempting to raise the alarm about suspicious behavior, or an excessive interest displayed in children, was subject to intimidation, harassment, and mockery. How dare you say that about Fr Murphy? He's a good man. He's only showing god's love. Maybe you're the one with wicked thoughts for such a thing to have even occurred to you. You and your family are filthy liars.

...sound familiar at all??

The only difference between the hooting adults draped in rainbow flags stuffing dollar bills into an eleven-year-old's underpants at a "children's drag" event, and the scout leaders and "overly enthusiastic" priests of yesteryear is that if anything, the groomers of today are even more emboldened and overt about it. We've just designated a different group of people whose alarming and inappropriate behavior towards children we are expected to purposely ignore against all of our screaming protective instincts. The behavior is exactly the same, the rationalizations are the same, and when all is said and done - the tidal wave of damaged, angry victims wondering where the fuck the real adults were while they were being exploited before their very eyes, will be the same. It honestly makes me so angry when Irish people my age and older can't spot it, in particular. The parallels seem so blindingly obvious to me that I feel like you have to be purposely looking away not to see it.

 

[Amelia99]

I would just like to add that this thread has made me change my stance on shared spaces. Originally I didn’t really see there was a problem with it (with the exception of prisons) but having seen the evidence presented here of genuine issues/offences that have arisen because of it I now understand the opposition.

 

[Jayceedove]

Side note, are there ANY trans people that don't have other underlying mental health conditions? Everyone I see posting aggressively with weird videos like the "girl" above (not a woman, of course) has other MH conditions too

Yes there are ironically - transsexuals - the tiny number so diagnosed - around 6000 out of 68 million UK population.

We nearly all had years of therapy usually from childhood looking for a cause as any person surely would. If you have a pain in your leg you go find out why at the doctors - not decide the pain is caused because your leg is identifying as made of wood so seek to chop it off.

If transition was offered after all other options failed we then disappeared into ordinary lives with partners, jobs etc. We needed no campaigns to demand the world change or ID us and most are not part of any trans group now as that ideology is miles away from how we live our lives.

We have no hive. We are individuals. I know fully integrated TS who are a doctor,church minister,work for a charity,assesses social security care needs for vulnerable people etc. Ordinary lives lived for decades perceived by others as women whilst accepting biological sex differences exist - hence the GRA which has legally recognised only 5871 in the UK to live those lives previously accommodated legally one by one.

We transitioned to disappear.Not appear as anything but normal and go screaming at people.

The irony is we obviously have some kind of condition that caused why we are and went through tests and treatments to find it. I was at I think five different hospitals at one point or another and an in patient on a mental health unit under 24/7 observation. Half a century ago. They found no treatable issues. Me and my family had wished they did. Transition was the last resort oprion. It worked. My life improved immediately. But transgedender ideology only wants to eliminate looking for causes as 'transphobic or being on the ward I was as 'conversion therapy'.

I suspect that is out of fear of what doctors might find if they look hard enough. But mostly as out there we see mostly lifestyle gender pattern choices of behaviour seeking to have the world validate a cause they are too afraid to let medcs investigate.

One disorder is visibly common - male entitlement.

AGP is also visibly the biggest cause of transgender identity in men over 21 out there. It is often obvious from the stories you post here. Most MtF transsexuals who are attraced to men not women transition by 21. AGP men often do only from 40/45 or so. Usually after marryng women and fathering kids and building careers via male privilege. The huge difference in attitude and entitlement those very different formative years produce is as obvious as you might expect it to be gven all of that.

 

[Notworthy]

Slightly off topic but its winding me up on other threads that we're being requested to put things in spoilers in case it triggers someone. Its a fucking gossip forum, if things are that triggering don't come on here, seek medical help. We have to stop pandering to people, its not always helpful.

 

[cesarea-tinajero]

Update on my TERFy stickers in the ladies loos at work (university) - someone scribbled 'trans women are women' under one of them, and someone else inserted a "not" into that sentence, so mixed results so far

 

[klarakluckbag]

I have developed a very low tolerance level for men in general lately. I get really cross when they talk over me, or worse, ignore me. I was walking on a narrow pavement on my way to work last week, and a group of workmen were walking towards me. In the past, I would have just stepped into the road to get past them, but not any more. They literally just walked right up into my face, they just assumed that I'd be the one to move first. I was so angry, I just stood in front of them and said "Are you going to move? Because I'm not" One of them said sorry and stepped back so that I could get past. Why do they need to be told? I don't ever get out of a man's way now, unless he is very old or disabled. They try to barge past, or stare me down and I'm not having it any more.

I love men, I've had relationships with some lovely men and I'm married to a fantastic guy, but men in general really make me sick. The never-ending tales of women murdered by their partners, the reports of young girls being constantly sexually harassed at school, the fact that rape is practically decriminalised now, it's just men who can't control their bloody urges. They blame it on porn, or their raging hormones, but mostly, they're just spoiled bastards who don't like women. It's a shame that the blokes who like wearing dresses and being "girly" won't ever get a taste of what it's like to be an actual woman, and to have to put up with this shit every single day.

 

[nothanksbabes]

I've always been left wing and only ever voted Labour, the Conservative governments of late have been an appalling combination of cruel and incompetent and I used to be very "fuck the Tories", but I'm really tired of this childish way the left lump everyone and everything into right and wrong, good and bad, when there's so much more nuance to life than that. I may not agree with someone's politics but I don't think it's OK to dehumnaise them and lump them all together, and I'm really tired of the hypocrisy of the left on this and many other issues. I actually think it's a bit of a luxury to be able to naively lump people into goodies and baddies like we're talking about a fairytale and not real human beings with lives as complex as our own.

If this debate has shown me anything it's that there are people with traditional conservative values who are considerate and empathetic, and people with left wing values and politics who are authoritarian arseholes who have had an empathy bypass.

 

[Ekathrina]

I can’t think of a single woman I’ve ever encountered in my entire life that would come out with some utter bollocks about “living in full colour”. Probably because they are too busy living actual real lives and facilitating the lives of others.

 

[ScarlettOHaha]

Just seen

Trainee doctors told not to quiz patients on transgender status

Trainee doctors are being taught to unquestioningly accept patients are transgender if they self-identify as such, potentially leading to body changes they may regret.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Well if trans people have a death wish, have at it. I didn’t know until I got into this debate in 2018 that blood donated by a pregnant woman can be extremely dangerous if given to men.
Also if MtFs are stupid enough to change their birth certificates and NHS details to female, then they won’t get called for prostate screening. There are so many sex specific issues around health and to ignore them is reckless.
We should never have let people change their records in the first place. I would like the entire GRA 2010 repealed but sadly, I think it’s too late for that.

I have a personal reason also for being offended about changing official documentation. I was adopted as a newborn baby in 1965.
When I decided to look for my birth mum, it was relatively easy and also had a happy outcome. I found her and we have got on since I met her when I was 30.
However, imagine if I were born now, and my birth mum identified as a man, and changed their documentation. I would probably never have found her.

I was so happy when that ‘trans man’ Freddie O Connell lost her case to have herself listed on her baby’s birth certificate as father not mother. That baby had a right to a factual birth certificate and thankfully the judge agreed. I cried about that as I felt so emotional about the manipulation of legal documents.

In my opinion any woman who ids as a man but decides to have a baby, and then tries to get the world to say they are a man, does not have dysphoria. Pregnancy and childbirth is a huge biological process that is a visceral experience. I’ve known several lesbians who’ve transitioned and then had babies and almost all have been total narcissistic arseholes.

 

[Couldlifeeverbesaneagain]

I think many people who don't work with young people are unaware of the dangers because it doesn't affect their lives, so they probably think that it's OK to say TWAW because they haven't delved deeply into the subject.

I know a number of teachers and find it concerning that they seem to be on board with this crap too. A female teacher I know said that Eddie Izzard was a women if he said so.

View attachment 1642453

I’ve seen a video at Yungblood (shitty pop emo crap) and the singer gets a girl on stage who says that she has something to tell her father who is also in the audience. She then announces that she is non binary and the crowd start cheering as though she’s just said that she’s found a cure for cancer. Very strange behaviour.

Eddie Izzard is a man.
Tom Felton is my new favourite HP actor.
Trans women are men.

Peace out.

 

[HockyRorror]

Julie Bindel has won her case against Nottingham Council.

I won my case against Nottingham City Council!

They have admitted that cancelling my talk and banning me and my hosts from the library was illegal, and have been made to apologise.

juliebindel.substack.com

 

[Amelia99]

I posted the Izzard Spiked article on Celeb gossip. A lot of people have liked it.

I see a lot of females who rally round to protect transwomen from even the mildest comment as being handmaidens for their cause. They are putting men before females. They don’t need to, the men have got it covered.

I’ve noticed a few new posters coming to the celebrity gossip thread to scold people for what they perceive to be transphobic comments. I got two angry emoticons from entirely new posters. They were in response to my comment to Killtheold. He or she had said they wanted to ”hug my transgender friends” because of some of the comments on the thread. I pointed out that if you want to present yourself as a caring person then having killtheold as a user name kind of puts a dent in your credibility in that respect. The elderly are some of the most vulnerable and discriminated against people in our society. But pointing out that killtheold is an offensive moniker generates angry emoticons. Apparently it’s ok to say kill the old but to suggest that shared spaces might present some problems is reprehensible.

 

[Dizzy]

Ralph Fiennes has been sticking up for JK Glad someone from the Potter films has finally shown some common sense.

Harry Potter star Ralph Fiennes defends JK Rowling

The 59-year-old actor, who plays Lord Voldemort in the series of films based on the author's books, said he understands where Ms Rowling 'is coming from'.

www.dailymail.co.uk