Gender Discussion #33

[CEB1980]

Go with a bit of common sense - she could point at his pen saying that makes him a man and whilst she likes a bit of roleplaying she is not going to pretend he's a woman.

yep. Don’t concede anything, because in doing so, you step off of a solid footing, into a place where you’re saying “I’m trying to accommodate you“. And once they know you’re trying, they will tell you you’re failing, and how you can do better. And it will start with just a slightly politer way to be, but you will have made that step, against your better judgment. And then you’ll find yourself where all trans activists actually are - confused, but aware that even saying they’re confused will put them at risk of being branded an enemy. Better to object on your own terms on the first principles - men aren’t women.

 

[Ensay]

Caroline Farrow has spend a night in the cells again- someone (undisclosed) has reported her for making ‘insulting’ comments on the internet (police words).

She says she isn’t responsible for the comments made by the handles shown to her by police. She was playing the church organ at a service when some of them were made.

When will this tit stop? It’s pure persecution.

Kind of scary. I mean, I don't like her for her past homophobic comments, but I wouldn't want to see her arrested.

 

[maytoseptember]

It beggars belief what has happened to Caroline Farrow this time. Presumably it’s the self-identified lawyer again?

Where is the crime? How can the police justify doing what they did? They have zero evidence that she was the person behind the Kiwi Farms and Mumsnet handles, and even if she was, what crimes were committed?

Police don’t give a tit about petty theft, but they do care about THIS?

Police are wasting their time compiling posts from KF and MN because they’re insulting If that’s a crime then posters on this thread, insulting Eddie Izzard and Dylan Mulvaney, should be quaking in our boots.

 

[weeweegie]

Wait so women are just being arrested for tweets now? Are the police going to arrest everyone on Twitter then? Are they going to arrest that mermaids p**o apologist then? Or men like him? Are they going to arrest the deranged TRAs who send death threats to JKR and just any woman who dares to disagree with them online? WTAF is going on?

It beggars belief what has happened to Caroline Farrow this time. Presumably it’s the self-identified lawyer again?

Where is the crime? How can the police justify doing what they did? They have zero evidence that she was the person behind the Kiwi Farms and Mumsnet handles, and even if she was, what crimes were committed?

Police don’t give a tit about petty theft, but they do care about THIS?

Police are wasting their time compiling posts from KF and MN because they’re insulting If that’s a crime then posters on this thread, insulting Eddie Izzard and Dylan Mulvaney, should be quaking in our boots.

Exactly. I feel insulted every bloody day I look on SM. Arrest them all! But only the women of course! Men can say what they want and there will be zero consequence. Brilliant! I feel so safe and supported

 

[PastryPolly]

Seen on twitter https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...7?shareToken=aca137a7294d7bff7a40891e0760dc91
View attachment 1624680

This is so disturbing. Whose children are these paedophiles looking to have "relationships" with? Will we now be called bigots for not offering our children up to these men? Absolutely nothing would surprise me anymore.

Why can't more people see the slippery slope we are on with this tit? And we thought the trans brigade were insane This really needs to be stomped out quickly, it should never ever gain traction the way trans celebration has. Sickos.

 

[maytoseptember]

Are they going to arrest the deranged TRAs who send death threats to JKR and just any woman who dares to disagree with them online? WTAF is going on?

I can hazard a guess what had happened. The self-identified lawyer, possibly aided by his creepy doctor friend, has handed the police a dossier of screenshots and the police have run with it.

How exactly the police were convinced that a crime has been committed remains to be seen.

 

[ButtonDownTheHutches]

Where is the crime? How can the police justify doing what they did? They have zero evidence that she was the person behind the Kiwi Farms and Mumsnet handles, and even if she was, what crimes were committed?

This is what is so scary: seemingly now the police will not only investigate you for non-criminal ‘wrong think’, they will also investigate you on an unsubstantiated allegation that you might be someone who made a comment that amounts to non-criminal ‘wrong think’.

Exactly. I feel insulted every bloody day I look on SM. Arrest them all! But only the women of course! Men can say what they want and there will be zero consequence. Brilliant! I feel so safe and supported

Indeed. Are there equivalent arrests for alleged misogynistic posts (including raid & death threats) online?

 

[witchofwestbyfleet]

i used to ID as nonbinary as a teenager. i was deep in it (im in my 20s now). i spent a lot of time on the internet, specifically tumblr, in lgbt circles. i had a pretty dysfunctional childhood in other ways tbh. i would go from taking drugs quite young (14) to then literally living online. was just all over the place. i went from thinking i was bi to asexual, and nonbinary also. i was very unconfident and felt completely divorced from my sexuality and body. i think IDing as asexual and nonbinary stemmed from that, and also being pretty vulnerable and influenceable as a teenager. there was a massive social contagion element to it because nearly all the girls i hung around with online also identified as nonbinary at the very least if not just 'trans'. theyd talk about similar feelings to me and id see they found an 'answer' with these identities. i was pretty young at the time - this was like a decade ago now. i used to be a mutual follower of @ lacroicsz (twitter handle) when she used tumblr, when she felt she was a trans man

in the end i think it ended up harming me because i accepted things i shouldnt have about my mental health. at the time, it was easier to think "im nonbinary and asexual* than "i have disassociated from my sexuality and body". it delayed me recognising i needed support, & i ended up using it as an excuse to suppress myself. i eventually got help and both identities fell away

if you look at a lot of girls IDing as nonbinary, youll probably find similar traits there - adverse childhood experiences, loneliness, generally progressive, a lot of insecurity, and a lot of online time. but the online thing is getting less significant bc this stuff is spreading IRL. i think more girls are going to feel at odds with the hyperfeminine expectations put on them (hugely expensive beauty routines, a lot about fashion etc, social media) now so more are going to get pulled into it. sure in some cases it might be a cry for attention, but a cry for attention is a cry for help imo, and one that should be answered in adolescents and children especially - just not with "sure, identify however you want, it'll make you happy!" gender critical, radical feminism can be the best support out there for a lot of girls. the tra stuff is keeping them away from it

I've never ID'd as non-binary but all this fits with my personal experience. For most of my adult life, my social life has revolved around LGBT circles and those have tended to include a lot of non-binary women (and some men.) I don't think I've ever met one that didn't have mental health problems, a history of abuse, or similar issues and they are all very "online". Some of the non-binary women I currently know have a lot of health problems and feel like their bodies have failed them, they refer to it as "the meat suit" and so on and seem very disconnected from their bodies. One is a woman living in a conservative South East Asian country who was in an abusive arranged marriage and had a child and now is "non-binary and asexual." Nothing, I'm sure, to do with her marriage likely involving sexual abuse and that as a woman who's still young there is pressure on her to re-marry.

I don't think it helps that many social media and online outlets heavily push the idea of not liking conventionally feminine things, and/or not being comfortable in a world designed for straight people, is "internalised misogyny" or transphobic. Sure, you can be successful and intelligent and feminine but you don't have to be and there is nothing wrong with not wanting to be

 

[Amelia99]

yep. Don’t concede anything, because in doing so, you step off of a solid footing, into a place where you’re saying “I’m trying to accommodate you“. And once they know you’re trying, they will tell you you’re failing, and how you can do better. And it will start with just a slightly politer way to be, but you will have made that step, against your better judgment. And then you’ll find yourself where all trans activists actually are - confused, but aware that even saying they’re confused will put them at risk of being branded an enemy. Better to object on your own terms on the first principles - men aren’t women.

Well my reaction was that, if it were me, I would end the relationship. But then I would not have been in that kind of relationship in the first place. Their relationship was unconventional from the start with them both identifying as non binary and both swapping between wearing male and female clothes (there’s probably a better way of wording that but you know what I mean). But I think this latest development with the guy choosing to be trans is just a bit too far for the woman. She’s trying to work with it but I predict she will leave.

 

[Notworthy]

Well my reaction was that, if it were me, I would end the relationship. But then I would not have been in that kind of relationship in the first place. Their relationship was unconventional from the start with them both identifying as non binary and both swapping between wearing male and female clothes (there’s probably a better way of wording that but you know what I mean). But I think this latest development with the guy choosing to be trans is just a bit too far for the woman. She’s trying to work with it but I predict she will leave.

I don't really see the problem with either of them wearing skirts/dresses/trousers etc, I see a problem with claiming that makes you non binary rather than just a little eccentric. I have a friend with alphabet disorder who is on Estrogen now. Always dressed in what I would term masculine dresses and I always viewed him as just an old fashioned eccentric but he claims he is a woman. Fortunately for both of us we can both say what we feel without the other feeling offended as we are both adults.

 

[Amelia99]

I don't really see the problem with either of them wearing skirts/dresses/trousers etc, I see a problem with claiming that makes you non binary rather than just a little eccentric. I have a friend with alphabet disorder who is on Estrogen now. Always dressed in what I would term masculine dresses and I always viewed him as just an old fashioned eccentric but he claims he is a woman. Fortunately for both of us we can both say what we feel without the other feeling offended as we are both adults.

Well I think that’s the key point isn’t it. When wearing non gender associated clothes was the only thing that was out of the ordinary it was otherwise a totally heterosexual relationship. But now it’s a whole different ball game (no pun intended!) with the man proclaiming he is no longer non binary but identifies as a woman.

 

[sheleg]

Men beat, assault, violate, degrade and murder women and get away with it.

Women make comments online and are arrested.

Tell me again how this isn't a misogynistic movement at its heart? I'll wait...

 

[petitspois]

I'm all for less gender conformity but, I'll be honest, not with men over about the age of forty. A woman can wear 'men's' clothes, no make up and have short hair at any age and a younger guy can wear eye liner and so on but the second I see an older guy doing it it just screams AGP/perv/creep to me plus they all look bloody awful.

 

[CEB1980]

I'm all for less gender conformity but, I'll be honest, not with men over about the age of forty. A woman can wear 'men's' clothes, no make up and have short hair at any age and a younger guy can wear eye liner and so on but the second I see an older guy doing it it just screams AGP/perv/creep to me plus they all look bloody awful.

the only reason it screams those things is because we live in a society that imposes these expectations onto women, while prohibiting them for men.

If we didn’t impose expectations of make up, femininity onto women of all ages, then they wouldn’t exist as cultural signifiers of apparent submissiveness/sexual availability.

 

[VC10]

This is so disturbing. Whose children are these paedophiles looking to have "relationships" with? Will we now be called bigots for not offering our children up to these men? Absolutely nothing would surprise me anymore.

Why can't more people see the slippery slope we are on with this tit? And we thought the trans brigade were insane This really needs to be stomped out quickly, it should never ever gain traction the way trans celebration has. Sickos.

Too many people had too much time to think during covid , and all these bull ideas gained momentum. Coupled with the ' fragile mental health' Brigade, castigating anyone who won't belive/ comform to their thoughts & beliefs/ wants , and that's what we have near the end of 2022. A fringe society element of deranged nasty self-serving dangerous loons.

I say-
Not in this house, duckie.........

 

[Ensay]

I'm all for less gender conformity but, I'll be honest, not with men over about the age of forty. A woman can wear 'men's' clothes, no make up and have short hair at any age and a younger guy can wear eye liner and so on but the second I see an older guy doing it it just screams AGP/perv/creep to me plus they all look bloody awful.

I've got no issue with it if said man isn't trying to pretend he's a woman.

Make up, skirts, etc are only 'female' because historically we've said they are. But if a man honestly wants to wear that stuff while still saying he's a man, I don't see the harm in it. Honestly, yes, I think they look a bit odd, but I don't want someone to change how they dress just to make me feel better.

After all, I don't think it's fair to say boys shouldn't be told off for playing with Barbies and girls shouldn't be told off for playing with toy cars when they're children, only to then take it all away and say: "well, now you're 40, you've got to abide by the gender expectations we said didn't apply when you were a child".

 

[kittymeowlondon]

This sentence jumped out at me...I suspect this is EXACTLY what's happening in a lot of NB, "queer" or FtM instances.

When I was growing up, back in the late 70's-early 80's, we had our cults too. Punks, New Romantics, mods, rockers, you could be whoever you wanted, join whichever tribe you liked. Or, like most of us, you could pick bits from each one. I had punky, multi-coloured hair for a time. I went through a stage of wearing heavy make-up, with bleached hair, just like the glam boys in the New Romantic bands. I had a black and white mini dress. But most of the time, I went to work or to the pub, in my ordinary clothes, with my ordinary make-up, after spending less than an hour to get ready. I also looked completely different from my friends. Not because I was "special", but because we all had our own style. I had straight (bottle) blonde hair, my friend had short dark hair. We both had (terrible) perms at different times. We wore different clothes as I'm short and she's tall. When I look back at photos from that time, all of the girls look different from each other. Today, girls are expected to all look the same. Poker straight long hair. Perfectly smooth foundation, stylised eyebrows, plumped up lips. False eyelashes for everyday wear. Fake tan all year round. And it's all such hard work! Women speak of spending "hours" straightening their hair in the mornings. Make-up tutorials show young girls applying layer upon layer of expensive products. Young women (and men, come to that) are expected to have perfect teeth, perfect bodies, perfect faces. And if you don't have all that, use a filter on your selfies, no-one will guess that you aren't perfect. Just never show your face in real life.

No wonder girls want to escape from this tit. I honestly can't blame them.

this image you paint of expectations of women and girls nowadays just reminds me of the women you see in porn - big lashes, big lips (they were called DSLs at some point, google if you wish) big boobs and I worry that pornification of society has seeped in so much it has become entrenched in to what women are expected to present as.
Absolutely hate it.

 

[VC10]

Well, men have wore kilts since the 1500s , as a form of clothing , not as a statement, and Women have worn trousers since the ancient times.

I'm not keen on having a deranged Arthur Mullard lookalike in a secondhand Debenhams frock shouting in my face, though, etc

 

[petitspois]

I've got no issue with it if said man isn't trying to pretend he's a woman.

Make up, skirts, etc are only 'female' because historically we've said they are. But if a man honestly wants to wear that stuff while still saying he's a man, I don't see the harm in it. Honestly, yes, I think they look a bit odd, but I don't want someone to change how they dress just to make me feel better.

After all, I don't think it's fair to say boys shouldn't be told off for playing with Barbies and girls shouldn't be told off for playing with toy cars when they're children, only to then take it all away and say: "well, now you're 40, you've got to abide by the gender expectations we said didn't apply when you were a child".

I think it boils down to the pervy aspect for me. No woman gets turned on dressing a certain way but it seems that quite a lot of men do. Actually, men seem to get turned on by almost anything.

 

[Ensay]

this image you paint of expectations of women and girls nowadays just reminds me of the women you see in porn - big lashes, big lips (they were called DSLs at some point, google if you wish) big boobs and I worry that pornification of society has seeped in so much it has become entrenched in to what women are expected to present as.
Absolutely hate it.

I think porn has undoubtedly played a part, but even without it, society has become more and more image obsessed.

The smartphone is probably the real culprit, as it's become so easy to take repeated selfies till you get the 'best' one for the 'Gram and adding filters has become so easy it's done without thinking. And they're given to children younger and younger these days.

I'm not suggesting we ban smartphones, but perhaps give them to children a bit later and limit their usage.