Gender Discussion #33

[ButtonDownTheHutches]

Can I ask why some of ye think trans people in toilets in dangerous. If anyone is going to attack anyone they will do it anywhere.

I think you have misunderstood. The primary concern is that self-ID and the removal of sex-based boundaries allows any man (including those with AGO, paraphilia, or other sexually motivated intentions) to have unquestioned access to spaces (toilets, changing rooms, women’s refuges) in which women are vulnerable.

Answer me this: why were such spaces sex-segregated in the first place?

Coming from a medical background, it's fascinating to me that a thread like this exists. Do any of you actually know transgender people ? Or the science behind being transgender ?

Could you expand a little on your medical background? And also on ‘the science behind being transgender’? It might also be helpful if you could define what you are using the term ‘transgender’ to encompass, because it can seeming mean anything from full surgery and a GRC to a ‘feeling’ that changes on a daily basis.

Also, as someone from a medical background with an understanding of the ‘science’ aspect, could you define what you view the terms ‘woman’ and ‘man’ to mean?

 

[Platformcrocs]

Thanks for the info. Yes I am interested in finding out more. Can i ask you a question? Where do you think someone like April Ashley fits into all of this?. She was before my time but I watched a recent documentary about her. Given the physical and mental agony she must have gone through back in the 1960s to go through sex change treatment she must have REALLY felt there was no other option for her. From what I understand she went on to live a normal life as a woman and was not involved in any of the fetishes you mention. She, to me anyway, is proof that there are “genuine trans people.”

April Ashley is mentioned here from time to time as an example of someone who people believe was likely genuinely trans. Probably a fair assessment.

However there's little need these days for trans identifying men to go down the route of hormones and reassignment surgery. It is very simple for a man to say "I identify as a woman" and for it to be taken as face value thanks to self ID. And it is completely open to abuse as a result.

Until a few years ago, it wouldn't occur to me that a trans person wasn't genuine. Why would they put themselves through all of it? But I've since learned about AGP (a man who is aroused at the thought of being female - a transvestite) and noticed too many patterns of middle aged men deciding they're female. I know of a few in the real world. I'm not buying it.

People can identify however they want but if 55 year old Barry says he's now called Brenda and is now entitled to use women's changing rooms and other single sex spaces - sorry, but no. All of this has been thrust on to women without any consideration. You'll also notice these people aren't interested in a third space either, it always has to be a woman's space that is used. That speaks volumes to me.

 

[holliebollie]

The whole ‘assigned xxx at birth’ is such bollocks. It’s observed in utero most of the time. I’m no sonographer and could see perfectly formed bits by accident at the 20 week scan. I didn’t want to know the sex but even I could see. My daughter is female by sex, she is only ‘a girl’ because she’s a female child, nothing more. She has no gender identity.

It makes people think the midwives are looking down and saying, “Yep, this one is a boy, we’ve decided.” This ‘assignment’ may have happened back in the day with babies where they had invisible sex differences and/or atypical bits, so they’d sort them by the sex that matched their genitals. One of my old work friends referred to periods as ‘hard for people with female bodies’… I said ‘yea, it’s hard being a woman for many reasons isn’t it… 🥱

 

[Ekathrina]

Women do far too much compromising already. When is it going to be men’s turn to compromise, given that they are supposedly so violent that they can’t be trusted not to kick the shit out of men who don’t conform to gender stereotypes? Trans women are socialised as men and have personalities that reflect that socialisation so there is always going to be a potential threat to women.

Considering ‘trans’ are about 1 percent of the population they seem to have achieved quite a lot of compromises already, in terms of the altering of language, the erosion of women only spaces and sex based rights, their election into ‘female only’ positions of influence and power and so on.
I can’t think of a single other demographic that has so much stuff handed to them on a plate on a continual basis. But no matter what they get, and who loses out because of it, it will never be enough.

 

[maytoseptember]

Further to yesterdays discussions about trans people not going away so we need to accommodate them, TIM can’t be expected to use the men’s facilities, what about third spaces?

This quote from a MN user is really on the money.




This is exactly why - as previously mentioned - a third space wouldn’t work. They don’t want a third space. It’s not even about using the bathroom designated for women, it’s about using the women contained within.

She says the solution is to dismantle the ideology, not provide a means to make it more acceptable or accommodate it.

 

[Ekathrina]

Why is the (unfunny to me, I admit) Mrs Browns Boys problematic but yet drag acts are fabulous, inclusive, child friendly and every fucking where?
I very much suspect it’s because Mrs Browns Boys isn’t ‘sexy’ and ‘glamorous’ and ‘adult’. All entertainment nowadays seems to have to revolve around shagging, wanking and overinflated caricature body parts.

Thank you for sharing this with us. I am glad to see more women peaking because what is happening in the name of this movement is having an awful, awful impact on women. I did cry at one of the posts in that thread who talked about womanhood and experiences of being a woman - especially this part: "When the facts are all we really want is to be loved and wanted and appreciated for our contribution to our families life. And most of the time we don’t get that."

That’s exactly how I feel a lot of the time. I’ve given up the last twenty years of my life on bringing up my children, one of whom has a severe learning disability and will require care for the rest of my life. I feel society views women in my age group as worthless ‘Karen’s’ yet it’s us that have been holding families and homes together, taking care of others and doing thankless jobs for low wages. It’s soul destroying.

 

[Nelly's mum]

From studies the majority of trans women prisoners are in prison for sexual assault, they are a liability and far too much of a threat to actual women. Even women who are criminals should not be forced to accommodate a man, especially knowing nearly all women in prisons have been abused sexually or have had history of being the victim of male violence.


God I hate that man so much, look at him with his little skinny body and big giant head, me and my friends call him golf club. He’s also a fucking creep who considers himself a girl not a woman yet he’s 25 years old. I wish him nothing but the worst, truthfully.

I’ve also stopped purchasing Tampax since they sponsored him, I’m not buying from a company who caters to delusional men who don’t even have periods so they can live out their male fantasies of giving a girl or a woman a tampon. Because we all know grown women already don’t carry supplies with them. Seriously I can’t remember the last time I even gave a Sanitary towel or tampon to a friend, because we already have that stuff in our bag.

Just to let you know that I contacted Tampax as I started to get a whiff of about the Mulveney creeps claim about being sponsored by Tampax.
Here's my reply from Tampax;

Thanks for getting in touch. We can confirm that we do not have a sponsorship agreement with Dylan Mulvaney or Jeffrey Marsh.

Regards,

Lisa

Tampax Team

So he is also a big fat liar as well as being a nauseating, woman-face, creep!!

 

[CEB1980]

I guess the situation is that if she genuinely believes this than she is unlikely to stop doing so unless it is made illegal. Same with transgender people. They’re not going to stop being trans. So what to do?

I think in the case of the woman who says she believes she is black the compromise actual black people could make is to ignore her as I think a lot of her belief is linked to attention seeking and the more of it she gets the stronger her belief. I’m willing to be corrected but I’m not sure there is much damage she can cause other than making herself look very silly.

The transgender issue is more multi faceted. There is also, I believe; a significant element of attention seeking. They feed off the anger and opposition they generate and it only makes them more strident in their demands. So pressing the ignore button so to speak is a definite compromise option. The use of the she pronoun is also a compromise option. However in the cases where trans demands present a genuine threat to female safety then I’m not suggesting that they be allowed access to those spaces and services. I never have suggested that. My compromise suggestion as I have said before is trans only spaces - which recognise that being trans is a real thing and not forcing them to live as men. But at the same time it doesn’t risk putting women in any psychological or physical danger.

Most, if not all, conflicts eventually end with a level of compromise. The compromise does not have to be equal on both sides. But after all the shouting and fighting is done you invariably end up with a cessation of hostilities where each side give some ground.

the problem with this is that the trans rights movement has made progress by constantly, unwaveringly steamrollering ahead, with an implied (but reluctant) compromise position requiring being a few steps behind, but constantly trying to catch up to assume that the compromise position isn’t closer to women’s boundaries than the trans activism position.

the entire movement is characterised by demanding more ”compromise”

first it was
”don’t stare at the man in a dress, he‘w doing ir because he feels comfortable that way”
then it was
“the man in a dress believes he’s in the wrong body - calling him “her” will help him feel better, it doesn’t cost anything, and it doesn’t mean he’s a woman”
then it was
“She’s a trans woman, and anyone who goes through the process of hormones and surgery is genuine, so she should be included as a woman, even though we know she’s not female”
then it was
“yes, a woman is an adult human female, and since trans women *are* women, trans women are female“
then it was
“she’s a trans woman, and so should be included as a woman, and I don’t think cis people should be able to impose expectations of hormones and surgery so that trans women fit a cis woman’s idea of what a woman is”

there is no compromise position possible, because underpinning the movement is male entitlement, with some of the most vocal activists being motivated in part by an escalating need to transgress (so the more accepted they are, the more outlandish the demand needs to be)

 

[Ekathrina]

If men who identify as women or who believe they are ‘born in the wrong body’ are allowed in female toilets then that means women from certain cultures and religions will not be allowed to use them and won’t be allowed to access public spaces and services. I don’t see why a man’s belief in something should over rule a physical and biological reality. And a belief or a feeling is all it is, and according to Stonewall that’s enough, you can wake up and decide to be a woman even though yesterday you were a great big bearded man. You can even be a woman some days and a man the rest of the time when it suits and anyone who doesn’t agree with such preposterous nonsense is a ‘transphobe’ apparently.
Women fought long and hard for the provision of toilet facilities in public spaces. At one time, not all that far back in history, there were no such amenities and women were restricted from taking their part in public life - and when women’s public toilets did eventually start being built there was uproar about them and they were often sabotaged, sometimes by arson, by men who were indignant about the freedoms that women might gain by their provision.
In developing countries it’s still the case that toilets for women aren’t widely available. This is a contributing factor to poverty as it means women can’t work outside the home and a contributory factor to violence as women are often raped, assaulted or even murdered if they go out at night in order to go to the toilet outside.

 

[maytoseptember]

Oh wow that was a quick flounce

At least this saves us the emotional energy of having to patiently explain the SAME OLD ARGUMENTS about our toilets at home being gender neutral, and “men are going to assault women whether they’re allowed to access female spaces or not!”

I mean seriously. Do they even listen to themselves? Men will commit sexual crimes regardless so let’s remove what little protection women have in public

 

[SILKWORM]

I really don't see the trans rights movement going for separate trans spaces. It goes against everything that we've all seen from them so far - which is complete domination of any space they decide to take over. They go for positions of power specifically, censor discussions and gaslight gaslight gaslight. Anyone who pushes back is branded a "TERF" or a "facist" or a "nazi" - they rid themselves of any opposition within the space and take over to control the narrative where any dissent, pushback or disagreement is not tolerated.

I get what you're trying to say, @Amelia99, but in order for it to work you first need to be dealing with people who are acting in good faith. The trans movement are not IMO. Even if you subscribe to the idea of "genuine" trans people, they are not the ones in control of the trans rights movement.

 

[holliebollie]

No compromise is needed. Female spaces for female adults aka WOMEN. Male spaces for male adults.

 

[Baby Giraffe]

Furore about Mrs Brown's Boys apparently being 'transphobic' as it's a man playing a woman, What a beautiful irony and chance for them to be hoisted by their own petard. By definition then, being trans is transphobic and drag queens should be banned. All the fucking lolz.

My only issue with Mrs Brown's Boys is that it's not actually remotely funny but whatever

 

[callurdadurinacult]

I disagree. Parents aren’t incapable of learning just because they are older, if you have children it’s your responsibility to keep them safe and if that includes a bit of hard work and re-education, tough, should have thought of that. It’s incredibly easy to configure your router for example, but most parents just can’t be arsed to do it.
I’ve been using the Internet since the nineties, there is absolutely nothing any kid can do to get round my settings. It’s an excuse. Your brain doesn’t turn to mush just because you’ve had a child.
I hear a lot of parents complaining about how their kids have spent £300 on Fortnite or some other in-game currency too. I’ve no sympathy for that either. It baffles me how stupid they are that they’d not turn off in-app purchasing and it baffles me that they don’t permanently confiscate those kids devices. If there’s no consequence, then they’ll keep on doing it.

I had to replace my phone when the camera went wonky on the old one, so I let my 10yo daughter use it at home. There's no service on it, but she can play games and access apps and what have you. She knows my rule on social media and she's limited in what she can watch on YouTube, too. I recently discovered she had downloaded TikTok, made an account, and was posting (silly, innocent) videos. I didn't scream or shout, but I told her I had trusted her and she had broken that trust and immediately took the phone off her. No idea when I'll give it back. I also cut her and my 5yo's tablet/laptop time down to 1 hour max and only after homework and chores are done. It's our responsibility as parents to be tough on our kids sometimes. I can be their friend later in life. Right now, I'm trying to raise them to be smart and safe.

 

[Ekathrina]

This one is a classic. Not only does he identify as a woman, he identifies as a Muslim woman. Or is he just a dodgy fetishist with a penchant for the veil and men in frilly knickers? He looks like a Boohbah, if anyone remembers those.

I started out feeling much the same as other posters, I really did think that trans women wanted to just get on with their lives the same as anyone else. I grew up in the eighties, went to goth clubs and had a succession of boyfriends with big hair, frilly shirts and eyeliner - I’ve never been bothered by men being gender non-conforming in fact I find it quite attractive still. It soon became apparent over the last few years that something different was going on though, I didn’t like how the trans agenda was focusing so much on children and young teens, I didn’t like how pornified and fetishistic it was becoming and I didn’t like how closely TRA’s seem to ally themselves with the aims of mens rights movements. I think most people still just see the tip of the iceberg really and they just want to be fair and tolerant, but sometimes it’s a mistake to be tolerant of people who don’t have your best interests at heart because they will ride roughshod all over you.
It’s also laughable when people think we are ‘right wing’. I’ve been a socialist all my life, a trade unionist and a shop steward. I do feel a bit politically homeless now though, as do many others.

 

[AlanBanan]

paedophiles are 100 per cent hiding behind the cover of trans activism.

I love how people say we are just being transphobic yet nearly from any study, most trans identified men in prison are in prison for child sexual assault, child sexual abuse media or sexually assaulting women. The correlation between trans women and pedophilia is far too large and obvious for us to ignore.

 

[Ekathrina]

It’s interesting that KJK’s opinions regarding Muslim men raping, exploiting and sexually abusing vulnerable girls and young women are problematic to some on the ‘Left’, but it’s also somehow not problematic when women from Muslim backgrounds are effectively excluded from aspects of public life because women only spaces are being taken over by men. Those women apparently need to ‘check their bigotry’ and get over it.

 

[Vanelope]

Child abuse.
Babies want to feed, it’s confusing them.
these men need to stay in their rooms and leave children alone.

 

[Autumncolors]

This is awful:

 

[thinkofacoolname]

I'm new to this thread and pleased to find it. I'm not a lesbian but I'm shocked to hear you've been accused of being a 'vagina fetishist'.
There's so many things I could say about the tra movement but the two main things that really bother me are the infiltration of women/ girl only spaces and the insistence that lesbians should have sex with men dressed as women and if not they're bigots.
Whatever way people can find to keep women as victims AND bad people simultaneously hey?

I have a child who doesn't subscribe to any traditional gender 'norms' in terms of interests, clothes, hair etc, but is also equally bemused by this movement and does not identify as anything other than their birth gender.
For a while I tried to promote conformity because I was scared seeing my child be isolated etc but it was my concern, not my child's and as a non conforming feminist mum I was deeply ashamed of my role in this.

times, fashions, sport trends etc have changed / are changing so much, that we no longer need to pigeonhole and label our kids, they predominantly accept that they can be much more than their gender dictates and they dont need to change their gender to do it.

Yeah. Me and others have been told to ‘examine our preferences’ and ‘unlearn our biases’. It makes me sick. I don’t care if it makes me transphobic but if you have a penis you are not a woman. I can’t even describe how sick I felt when I was being told that I need to include born men into my dating pool. I even had other ‘lesbians’ tell me that if I’m attracted to women that should mean all women. I just can’t. It doesn’t matter how you dress it up.

it’s the entitlement. No one is entitled to have sex with anyone. When did ‘no is a complete sentence’ stop being a thing? The thing that fucks me off if that were told to respect their identity but they can’t respect our sexuality? How does that even work?

I feel so bad for young women discovering their sexuality and being told they’re wrong about it and being shamed over it. Trust me, it’s despicable.