Gender Discussion #33

[petitspois]

The second you make exceptions to the 'no men in female spaces' argument then they win. They will creep in, little by little. Not all TIM are criminals but some are so females need protecting. We are not here to protect men's feelings.

 

[maytoseptember]

Did anyone else see Ricky Gervais jumping in to two men debating the definition of woman?




I will never stop being amused by otherwise intelligent-sounding people tying themselves into KNOTS trying to come up with a new definition of woman, beyond the perfectly existing definition that we already have.

Anyway, nice one Ricky. He doesn’t speak up often but he’s always watching

 

[JAR21]

I agree that lots of the trans demands are excessive. I don’t think it’s realistic or appropriate to expect access to and influence over all female spaces and services. However I do feel that some consideration needs to be extended to those people who genuinely are trans because they feel they were born the wrong sex rather than for other less honest reasons. I’m a woman, was born a women and have never had any desire to be anything other than a woman but I do believe and understand there are people who spend their life really feeling they are in the wrong body so I’d like to think they could be supported. Personally I feel the solution is trans specific spaces.

Anyway this whole discussion kicked off on another thread because I said I would not have a problem calling a trans woman she. And I wouldn’t. As far as I’m concerned it’s no big deal to me. It then broadened out into access to female spaces and the difference between trans people who had surgical gender realignment and those who haven’t.

If I had to absolutely nail my colours to the mast I would say that I don’t really agree with trans women being in female prisons but I am ambivalent about them using female loos.
As for breastfeeding, mensuration, and other physiological functions that only apply to biological women then I think only the people it applies to should have a say in it.

There are also anorexics who think they're obese and people who think they should have their arm or leg amputated, but we don't re-enforce those beliefs, so why should it be any different for people who say they're women?

I don't think they should have access to any female spaces, including toilets and changing rooms.

Pregnancy, breastfeeding and menstruation are all being 'de-womaned' and 'personed' instead, which is absolutely insulting and ridiculous.

 

[sheleg]

Men beat, assault, violate, degrade and murder women and get away with it.

Women make comments online and are arrested.

Tell me again how this isn't a misogynistic movement at its heart? I'll wait...

 

[Nelly's mum]

Sorry to burst in. Just been asked by mods on celeb gossip thread to move a discussion I’m having with @Nelly's mum over here.

So …….. yes I do know there are trans women with male genitalia in women’s prisons. You were saying there was no way of telling whether trans women had gender realignment surgery before allowing them into female spaces. I was just saying that it certainly would be possible to introduce such screening for prisons.

Hi and welcome
I was saying that to open the door to womens safe space to Trans Identifying Males, opens the door to ALL males.
It is no good saying post-op TIM's are safe to allow into womens safe spaces as who is going to check? Also, where do you draw the line - what if they are awaiting surgery? Or on hormones but still have their penis? Or what if they just self-ID as a woman and don't want treatment?

My point is that women should not be placed at risk so TIM's feel accepted. If TIM feel unsafe in men's spaces, they need to address this with male society - this is not for women to resolve and does not give them a right to be in Womens spaces.

You asked if any women had actually been assaulted by TIM's in Womens public safe spaces - the answer is yes. Google Katie Dolatowski, TIM who assaulted 10yo girl in public toilet. Google Baroness Nicholson re women assaulted by TIM in hospital - hospital said there were no men there because it was a Womens ward. Google Karen White, TIM who sexually assaulted women in a Womens prison.

Fair points. But then trans women are likely to be vulnerable to violence in male prisons. So is the solution to create special trans only units? I don’t know. Genuinely wondering how the situation can be resolved without anyone getting hurt.

There are plenty of males at risk of violence in male prisons.
Putting them in Womens prisons and placing vulnerable women at risk is not the answer.

 

[mindlessness]

I don't even have words. Women's bodies are not commodities. (it's a tweet thread, there's some follow up tweets)

 

[Jen667]

A charity founded by a woman who took her underage son abroad to be illegally castrated has dodgy connections. Imagine my surprise.

 

[skronkywildcat]

My dear friend who is amazingly clear sighted pointed out to me the fact that puberty blockers give you a prepubescent looking body on a person over the age of consent. I honestly thought I would vomit. That’s what they want, that’s why that are so into pushing the trans agenda.

 

[Ekathrina]

It’s like people have become convinced that drag is a sexuality or a gender now, and it’s become somehow subsumed into the ‘trans’ agenda. As far as I know most drag artists aren’t even trans and they are mainly gay men who dress normally the rest of the time because it’s just a character.
I can’t abide drag for many reasons which we’ve all talked about before, but I think it’s a really odd phenomenon how we aren’t allowed to openly criticise it as a genre of entertainment.

 

[Ekathrina]

That Twitter thread from Caroline Farrow mentions that the police asked her if she was ‘BernardBlacksIceLolly’. That’s a Mumsnet user name, I recognise it from the Feminism boards over there. Basically either the police or whoever made the accusations are trawling those boards actively looking for people to harass for having the wrong opinions now:
Meanwhile Twitter, Facebook, Reddit and TikTok are full to the brim with the most vile misogynistic abuse and threats towards women. And they do nothing. Teenage boys are taking and distributing photos of young girls in a state of undress under changing room doors and they do nothing.

 

[thinkofacoolname]

I don’t understand why it’s ‘assigned female/male at birth’, the midwife doesn’t stand with blue and pink tags and say ‘hmmm, we’ve assigned too many boys, this one can be a girl’.

I’ve also yet to see anyone come up with a clear definition of what the genders are that don’t revolve around feelings. ‘It’s what a person feels like inside’. Bullshit. It’s gender stereotyping and old fashioned. How I experience my womanhood is different from my mum, different from my sister, different from my friends… all the ties us together is that we are biologically female. Our bodies may have similar functions but how we feel, how we dress, how we view things, is so different.

I’ve seen an article that said Joan of Arc would probably be a trans man or that Anne Lister would probably have been a trans man simply because they didn’t conform with expectations of the day.

God forbid a woman show any signs that she wasn’t happy within the confines of a societal prison that men had built for them. It doesn’t mean they want to be men, it means they wanted the opportunities that men were afforded of the day. It’s been said that Lister would be at the least non-binary because she preferred to dress more like a man, but when you see the fashions of the day then of course she’d want to dress more like a man (i.e. comfortably) for all that she did in a day. I buy clothes from the men’s department a lot because they aren’t as restricting as women’s clothing but that doesn’t mean I want to be seen as a man.

 

[Ekathrina]

It’s common for young boys to be watching it, but it’s far from normal. I mentioned a few threads back that I saw a group of boys of junior school age standing around watching porn on a phone on a street corner like it was nothing.
I do blame the parents. Children of that age don’t need smartphones, the parents are using such devices as digital babysitters and they are either too stupid, too apathetic or just can’t be arsed to set up parental controls.
My eldest didn’t even have a phone until he went to college at 16, and my youngest didn’t get one until he was 18 because he’s got learning disabilities. I have parental control settings on his phone and it’s linked to my account because he’s vulnerable and I don’t want him happening upon things by accident. I’ve also got strict settings on my household router.
Women of my age group have been warning of the dangers of kids and teenagers having free and unfettered Internet access for decades now, and we’ve been warning of increasingly violent and misogynistic pornography. No one listened, we were vilified and mocked, and this is what we’ve ended up with - a world where it’s ‘normal’ for children to have access to hardcore pornography and where 18 year old girls see selling themselves for a few quid on OnlyFans as a normal and viable way to earn a living.

 

[maytoseptember]

So …….. yes I do know there are trans women with male genitalia in women’s prisons. You were saying there was no way of telling whether trans women had gender realignment surgery before allowing them into female spaces. I was just saying that it certainly would be possible to introduce such screening for prisons.

Very very few trans identified men ever have full surgery. It’s a horrific procedure with dubious results. It’s easier to assume that most trans identified men in the prison system have penises.

Besides, why would it be OK to place a trans identified man who HAS had full surgery in with women? They’re still male, with male strength and male patterns of violent offending. Women aren’t safe simply because a man doesn’t have his penis anymore.

 

[Falkor]

It's sport for me. Lowering testosterone levels means bugger all when your body has all the other physical advantages of a male skeleton and going through male puberty - bigger lungs, stronger muscles, even the narrower pelvis meaning that the thigh bones are at a better angle to the ground for driving power through them, vital in running and cycling. Why should Lia Thomas, Emily Bridges, Cece Telfer, Laurel Hubbard and others take places away from women they wouldn't be allowed to compete against if they weren't trans? Why should Hannah Mouncey be allowed to risk the safety of every woman she tackles? Why should Maxine Blythin be Kent Cricket Club's women player of the year when she still plays on the men's team as well? And it's even more important further down the ranks, where an outstanding child in their county teams can win scholarships and sponsorships that are literally lifechanging. It's hard enough to keep girls in sport once puberty starts without them feeling there's no point in competing because a there's a boy in their age class. A few years ago someone took all the finals times of the 2016 American high school boys national competitions and compared them to the finals times of the women's events in the 2016 Olympics. If the boys had been competing in the women's events in Rio, the women would have won just six medals, five in track and field events and one in swimming. https://boysvswomen.com/#/

 

[Hollie Day]

Sorry. That’s not what I meant. I meant people on both sides who are unwilling to acknowledge that there is any point of view other than theirs and who have zero willingness to try to find a solution.

I've got my point of view and I absolutely do not have to acknowledge or come up with solutions for their issues. We shouldn't have to fight our corner, meet half way, listen to what they have to say etc. They need to stay out of womens spaces and come up with an alternative and leave us out of it. I'm saying no to men in womens spaces. Their point of view is meaningless to me. They need to stop projecting their crap on women and making us part of the problem.

 

[sheleg]

Dylan passes in the same way I passed Maths GCSE in 1997. That is, absolutely fucking not.

 

[Nelly's mum]

Ok I myself just won't ever get it. A man was in the women's loos the other night at a gig. He was locked but we just laughed.

Ok.
So you are 6'1", presumably fit, strong, and confident as you play rugby. Imagine if you were maybe 5'1", maybe less physically able, or you were a 10yo girl, or had been a victim of sexual abuse or domestic violence. Do you still think you would you would be ok with sharing Womens safe spaces with men?
How about a prison cell?
What about a residential service for Domestic Abuse survivors?
How about a rape crisis support group?

It's not all about you. You don't get to choose for every woman.

 

[Notworthy]

I'm just really tired of this attitude that unless we full on go left wing on absolutely every detail of our lives, we are right wing or far right or even a facist. Just pathetic.

 

[Scotch Mist]

It makes me bloody livid that any woman speaking the truth about biology is now labelled 'right wing'

I'm not right wing, it fucking infuriates me.
I would love to be able to vote Labour again but I can't while they've been captured by this gender ideology shite.

It's also disgusting that these fucking arseholes use that slur against Kellie Jay.

 

[blahblahboring]

Has anyone seen the video of KJK telling a TIM to get out of the womens’ toilets? She posted it to her Insta page and I don’t know how to link it here. But basically, the creep has the audacity to say, ‘As a mother…’ aside from the absolute nonsense of what is clearly a man calling himself a mother, it’s SO offensive to the actual mother of the daughters he is talking about. So she carries them, gives birth to them and (most likely) raises them, but this clown waltzes in at the last minute in a wig and claims that HE is their mother. So entitled, arrogant and disgusting. I wonder what his daughters really think of him…