Dolly Alderton/Pandora Sykes

[Shugsyshalone]

I would too!

I’m also interested in the fan echo thing (it needs a name ). It’s almost the opposite of cancel culture whereby a person’s following is so strong and on message that no one dares to speak out or offer any form of criticism.

I think this simply sums up the current social culture, and why people come to pages like Tattle to discuss their opinions.
Whether it’s a writer, an artist, a fitness guru. If anyone dares to disagree or give constructive feedback or criticism, they are usually (publicly) called out as if they have said/done something appalling. Cue being called a bully, troll, jealous and so on.
I am not talking about needless nasty comments, I’m talking about genuine feedback or pointing out that someone has said something inappropriate or mis-educated.
I’m all for celebrating people’s success, but there seems to be very skewed views on what success actually is these days.

 

[Debarkle]

I wonder if because of Pandora’s upbringing and career so far this is the first time she’s actually faced any criticism/knockbacks?

 

[Whiskers]

Elizabeth Day has posted an interesting thing about critics/reviews recently -


Emma Gannon has replied saying she needed to read that at the moment...

I do see where she’s coming from but at the same time, how can you accept praise if you can’t accept criticism? And one person isn’t necessarily right or wrong, it’s just an opinion.

 

[TravellingPants]

The echo chamber of positive reviews is such a weird concept to me... in any profession your performance is going to be reviewed and if there are things that missed the mark or could have been better executed then you should welcome that feedback! You can’t improve if you refuse to hear it.

I draw the line at being unkind and I do think it was a dick move for someone on Twitter to send Pandora the piece criticising her and her book, but I don’t think censoring reviews other than glowing recommendations is healthy or helpful.

 

[slugella]

I also think painting criticism as nasty and troll behaviour halts any discussion which is boring. Pandora could have used this situation to start a discussion, but instead she has ran away licking her wounds and had her manager/agent sharing snarky tweets. Some of these women (Dolly, Pandora, Elizabeth, Emma and that "in blue tick group") are now painted as the voice of the everywoman/a generation. And it's so dangerous if they are not mature enough to consider the views of people who disagree and engage in discussion. And I actually like some of their work, think they are intelligent and do agree with a lot of what they say, so not a "troll".

Criticism doesn't feel nice. But it is useful. At work, I always get feedback on my articles and other things I do. And sometimes my first instinct is to feel a bit irritated if I don't agree/am upset it it's something that I've worked hard on. But most of the time it also leads to: "oh yeah that makes sense/improves this/is something I had never considered". And sometimes if I do disagree with the feedback it can lead to intereating discussion and debate. Because I'm an adult and that is how life works!

I must say I'm really enjoying this thread. Some very intelligent and thoughtful posts here.

Also edit to add another thought: These women have reached a level of success, income and opportunity that the majority of people can't even hope for. And privilege may have helped them get there, but their hard work and the fact people like them enough to follow and support also means something. Yet they can't put a couple of criticising pieces into perspective and consider that maybe they don't get it right all the time? Which is fine because none of us do!

 

[Mbella]

I wonder if because of Pandora’s upbringing and career so far this is the first time she’s actually faced any criticism/knockbacks?

Pandora is clearly trying to shift career from fashion writer/podcaster to Serious Literary Cultural Commentator. The trouble with doing this is that no matter how good you were in your previous roles, your success/knowledge/experience doesn't necessarily translate. I'm experiencing this as a novel writer. I've had a decent amount of success in my professional career but writing novels is a whole different thing. It can be tough - but beneficial - to the ego to realise that you're a beginner again and that others have done what you're trying to do with much more skill: even if you're in your 30s, even if you've got loads of different achievements under your belt.

Here is the downside to getting a book published if you haven't been through the tough period of rejection and criticism that most authors face.

I sometimes ask myself: would I like to get a bad book published with a huge advance and then face loads of fair criticism? Or is it better to go through the difficult period of working, learning and growing with no guarantee of success, but creating something much more worthwhile? I'm on the latter path, and when I think about this in any depth (and see the type of work put out by Pandora etc) I'm ok with it.

Also: reviews are for the benefit of readers, not the author. So of course we need critical reviews. Otherwise it just turns into the literary circle jerk that has been so eloquently criticised already.

 

[TGreece76]

Exactly. Friendly reminder that Pandora is a hereditary title (http://www.thepeerage.com/p19709.htm#i197087). She’s related to Jane Birkin. She went to St Mary’s in Ascot, where term fees are £13,380 a term (and her niece now goes there, so it’s likely she might also send Zadie there). Her house in Kensal was £1.3 million. Christ - her bed is upholstered in Pierre Grey, which goes for upwards of £600 a metre! She categorically isn’t, and can’t be, an objective commentator on the ephemeral “millenial condition”. Her life is so far removed from any kind of normal “gen rent” experience; trying to act as an orator for the middle classes is just laughable. Throwing a tantrum when she (very fairly, and fairly diplomatically) gets called out for doing so is repugnant and spoilt. The article made some really important points, namely that Pandora’s book has an entire essay bemoaning fast fashion and why we all need to buy less, without ever really addressing how her job as ST’s Wardrobe Mistress contributed to and perpetuated consumer culture. She literally made her money, whether through Instagram or her column, by enticing people to buy. Fine - people change, as do consumption habits. But she seems to have a repeating pattern in failing to acknowledge how she is not only complicit, but culpable in the problems facing millennials. She doesn’t seem to understand that she can’t remove herself from the problem - in order to write about it well, she must fully examine her role in these issues. She’s not some observing Alain de Botton-esque voyeur - she’s an ex-fashion writer with skin in the game.

Pierre Frey*

Exactly! thought I was the only one who was irked by this.

 

[Lanavalentine]

The thing is that there will always be someone richer, more connected than you. There will be many people who’s lives you could only dream of living, and I suspect that Pandora has come into contact with a lot of them throughout her life, from her school days to her career.

The problem is that she seems to have taken all that as proof that she’s entirely average (in terms of finances and experiences) and firmly middle class.

The literary/media bubble she lives in has probably further convinced her of that - it’s so normal to most of them to live in £1.3mil houses in London, only wear cashmere or 100% wool knitwear, holiday at places like Shutters on the Beach in Santa Monica (on her Instagram) which pre-Covid, at its cheapest, was about £600 a night.

To her, this stuff is normal, because it’s what everyone around her has, too. I think she’s proven herself to be insanely myopic, if not arrogant that she could speak for women on topics which not only has she potentially played a part in (the rise of fast fashion) but which don’t actually affect her in the way she’s discussing (I highly doubt she’s ever gone on a Primark shopping spree of her volition, for example).

 

[queenamber]

I can’t remember who said this but it was along the lines of “if you listen to the good reviews, you have to listen to the bad reviews”. That circle would do well to take that advice.

 

[Cloak]

I think she must also be feeling annoyed by the reviews as she tries so hard to pander to every view and every person, to be completely inoffensive and inclusive. I’m reading her book at the moment and the criticism it’s receiving has really taught me that it’s way better to have your own opinion and stand by it, as people will take issue with whatever you do anyway. May as well actually voice and stand up for your own opinions in that case!

 

[Justlurking1]

Sorry to sound a bit daft here but what does ‘Hereditary title’ mean?

ETA - in the context of Pandora’s name I mean

 

[Mustard]

Pandora cannot take any type of criticism, constructive or not. I stopped following her on Twitter a while ago after she kept moaning whenever someone gave a slightly negative review to the High Low. She’d have an outburst of ranting tweets so the likes of India Knight could soothe her bruised ego by telling her how amazing she is. I’m not surprised she’s reacted like this over one less than glowing review.

So undoubtedly she won’t be discussing the Eric Joyce/India Knight situation.

 

[Shugsyshalone]

I also think painting criticism as nasty and troll behaviour halts any discussion which is boring. Pandora could have used this situation to start a discussion, but instead she has ran away licking her wounds and had her manager/agent sharing snarky tweets. Some of these women (Dolly, Pandora, Elizabeth, Emma and that "in blue tick group") are now painted as the voice of the everywoman/a generation. And it's so dangerous if they are not mature enough to consider the views of people who disagree and engage in discussion. And I actually like some of their work, think they are intelligent and do agree with a lot of what they say, so not a "troll".

Criticism doesn't feel nice. But it is useful. At work, I always get feedback on my articles and other things I do. And sometimes my first instinct is to feel a bit irritated if I don't agree/am upset it it's something that I've worked hard on. But most of the time it also leads to: "oh yeah that makes sense/improves this/is something I had never considered". And sometimes if I do disagree with the feedback it can lead to intereating discussion and debate. Because I'm an adult and that is how life works!

I must say I'm really enjoying this thread. Some very intelligent and thoughtful posts here.

Also edit to add another thought: These women have reached a level of success, income and opportunity that the majority of people can't even hope for. And privilege may have helped them get there, but their hard work and the fact people like them enough to follow and support also means something. Yet they can't put a couple of criticising pieces into perspective and consider that maybe they don't get it right all the time? Which is fine because none of us do!

I particularly like this thread because it is mostly made up of well thought out opinions on a bigger picture, as opposed to ripping someone to shreds for the sake of it.
I find that the subject of Dolly and Pandora strikes up lengthy and broader discussions with my friend group. Not just about them, but it opens up discussions around class, wealth, income, upbringing, levels of privilege and so on. In my immediate friend group, we are all ‘working class’ with careers that we have worked hard to achieve, careers that people of a middle class may look down on as being ‘just a job’.
In my wider friends group, there are a few who are more ‘middle class’ and the higher level of privilege really shows.

 

[stealthbtch]

The woman’s tweet about “owning a house doesn’t mean you can’t have a voice” is SO misleading.

Nobody said Pandora can’t have a voice - they just said, quite rightly, that she isn’t well placed to be the voice of millennial women!

Also, there’s a HUGE difference between owning a house and owning a multi-million pound London house that has been featured in property magazines I own a house, I’m sure many of us do on the thread, but it’s not the same as Pandora’s!

Don't forget the part where you decorated it "all by yourself" WHILST pregnant and still working!

 

[Mbella]

Don't forget the part where you decorated it "all by yourself" WHILST pregnant and still working!

I remember reading the article in whatever interiors magazine it was. It said that "a sense of optimism" helped her complete the house on a short timescale . I wanted to add: "and LOADS and LOADS of cash"

 

[stealthbtch]

Exactly. Friendly reminder that Pandora is a hereditary title (http://www.thepeerage.com/p19709.htm#i197087). She’s related to Jane Birkin. She went to St Mary’s in Ascot, where term fees are £13,380 a term (and her niece now goes there, so it’s likely she might also send Zadie there). Her house in Kensal was £1.3 million. Christ - her bed is upholstered in Pierre Grey, which goes for upwards of £600 a metre! She categorically isn’t, and can’t be, an objective commentator on the ephemeral “millenial condition”. Her life is so far removed from any kind of normal “gen rent” experience; trying to act as an orator for the middle classes is just laughable. Throwing a tantrum when she (very fairly, and fairly diplomatically) gets called out for doing so is repugnant and spoilt. The article made some really important points, namely that Pandora’s book has an entire essay bemoaning fast fashion and why we all need to buy less, without ever really addressing how her job as ST’s Wardrobe Mistress contributed to and perpetuated consumer culture. She literally made her money, whether through Instagram or her column, by enticing people to buy. Fine - people change, as do consumption habits. But she seems to have a repeating pattern in failing to acknowledge how she is not only complicit, but culpable in the problems facing millennials. She doesn’t seem to understand that she can’t remove herself from the problem - in order to write about it well, she must fully examine her role in these issues. She’s not some observing Alain de Botton-esque voyeur - she’s an ex-fashion writer with skin in the game.

Pierre Frey*

You and I are going to get along splendidly! Did you know her grandfather invented London Weekend Television or ITV or something? He was Lord Buxton of Asda (sorry , ASTA) I think and Prince Philip was at his funeral. I also love looking up the parents' piles of these media/fashion types then--because there's no Street View on Google Maps, obviously--clicking on Satellite view and seeing the pools and tennis courts.

I also think painting criticism as nasty and troll behaviour halts any discussion which is boring. Pandora could have used this situation to start a discussion, but instead she has ran away licking her wounds and had her manager/agent sharing snarky tweets. Some of these women (Dolly, Pandora, Elizabeth, Emma and that "in blue tick group") are now painted as the voice of the everywoman/a generation. And it's so dangerous if they are not mature enough to consider the views of people who disagree and engage in discussion. And I actually like some of their work, think they are intelligent and do agree with a lot of what they say, so not a "troll".

Criticism doesn't feel nice. But it is useful. At work, I always get feedback on my articles and other things I do. And sometimes my first instinct is to feel a bit irritated if I don't agree/am upset it it's something that I've worked hard on. But most of the time it also leads to: "oh yeah that makes sense/improves this/is something I had never considered". And sometimes if I do disagree with the feedback it can lead to intereating discussion and debate. Because I'm an adult and that is how life works!

I must say I'm really enjoying this thread. Some very intelligent and thoughtful posts here.

Also edit to add another thought: These women have reached a level of success, income and opportunity that the majority of people can't even hope for. And privilege may have helped them get there, but their hard work and the fact people like them enough to follow and support also means something. Yet they can't put a couple of criticising pieces into perspective and consider that maybe they don't get it right all the time? Which is fine because none of us do!

All of your points are eloquently stated. I'm also a writer and was trained early on to seek out and learn from feedback. I'm always trying to perfect it.

 

[TravellingPants]

Exactly. Friendly reminder that Pandora is a hereditary title (http://www.thepeerage.com/p19709.htm#i197087). She’s related to Jane Birkin.

This link is so interesting! I’m taken aback to see she has a brother too - she talks a lot about her sisters (especially Enna(?) who must be Eleanor) including the baby sister who passed away but I’m fairly certain a brother has never come up?!

Am now lost in a deep dive of who’s who

 

[cedarpeach]

Pandora has often talked about the fact she is a neurotic over achiever and “good girl”, so I can imagine how badly the reviews must sting. The book is on the bloody bestseller list, though, so why not take the bad reviews with good grace and focus on the overwhelming success of her debut book instead? A tantrum is not a good look.

 

[Shugsyshalone]

Don't forget the part where you decorated it "all by yourself" WHILST pregnant and still working!

There are a few articles online where her home is the feature. She has a rug in her ‘sitting room’ that costs over £3000 alone. I’m not sure about anyone else, but I know that isn’t something I find relatable or something I aspire to.

 

[Libertine]

This link is so interesting! I’m taken aback to see she has a brother too - she talks a lot about her sisters (especially Enna(?) who must be Eleanor) including the baby sister who passed away but I’m fairly certain a brother has never come up?!

Am now lost in a deep dive of who’s who

Come sit by me. I just did that deep dive too, for the Christian names, if nothing else.