Dolly Alderton/Pandora Sykes

[stealthbtch]

I think this is the basis of a book - Capital I think it’s called. I think it takes one street in south London - the prices have gone insane over a generation and it’s about the effects and the people who live there etc but also I think a broader look at society from what I remember.

I absolutely loved Capital. Its author is John Lanchester and he came on the scene in the mid-1990s with The Debt to Pleasure, a satire on posh food-obsessed Europeans. Lanchester's newest novel is about a future Britain where global warming has resulted in a dictatorial regime and every single person has to do a one-year National Service as a guard on a massive seawall that rings your scepter'd isle. If a refugee breaches the patch one is assigned to guard, the guardian loses their place and gets tossed into the sea. It's brilliant. He also writes about money and class for the New Yorker. This is all slightly off-topic so may I please just add this one thought? It's beneficial to eradicate "middle class" from any debates about income inequality. Economists might also caution to be wary of the term: it's only loosely definable, and every lower-income person who has a little bit of comfort will describe themselves as "middle class" and the same goes for most high-income people--they will identify as "middle class" because it is just easier than acknowledging their privilege.

 

[Shane]

Isn’t there 3 “rungs” of middle class? Lower middle class, middle middle class, upper middle class? (I did sociology a million years ago so could have this v wrong).

 

[Mustard]

Isn’t there 3 “rungs” of middle class? Lower middle class, middle middle class, upper middle class? (I did sociology a million years ago so could have this v wrong).

There are definitely those three rungs in the USA.

 

[maketheswitch]

That’s wonderful thread, thanks for compiling! I’ve been following James for a while now too, he’s pretty funny. Pandora is that posh person at uni who is only friends with posh people but disagrees with tories yet can’t quite being herself to vote labour so votes Lib Dem lol.

Lib Dems are just yellow Tories

I would consider myself middle middle class. I went to state school, both my parents were university educated, we had foreign holidays (we mostly drove to France or Italy and camped), my big sister won a scholarship to a very prestigious boarding school where she felt extremely out of place. My grandparents did not attend university - one missed out on a scholarship to Oxford paid for by his county to another local boy. I am extremely privileged in myriad ways but for Pandora and Dolly to try and pretend that we are the same or even similar is just tosh. I have a very close friend who is properly posh, like them, and her life, and the lives of her friends who I know through her, are just different. It's just the way it is, and I understand that to other people, I am 'posh', and have had opportunities and help that are way beyond the norm. But I would never pretend otherwise, and am conscious of it.

Lib Dems are just yellow Tories

I would consider myself middle middle class. I went to state school, both my parents were university educated, we had foreign holidays (we mostly drove to France or Italy and camped), my big sister won a scholarship to a very prestigious boarding school where she felt extremely out of place. My grandparents did not attend university - one missed out on a scholarship to Oxford paid for by his county to another local boy. I am extremely privileged in myriad ways but for Pandora and Dolly to try and pretend that we are the same or even similar is just tosh. I have a very close friend who is properly posh, like them, and her life, and the lives of her friends who I know through her, are just different. It's just the way it is, and I understand that to other people, I am 'posh', and have had opportunities and help that are way beyond the norm. But I would never pretend otherwise, and am conscious of it.

AND calling yourself ‘middle class’ when your family is titled and you went to st Mary’s Ascot is just .... silly

 

[Justlurking1]

The private school thing is just laughable with P&D. They acknowledge that it’s incredibly unfair that money can buy more opportunities, especially Dolly who has wrote pieces about it, but I’d bet my entire bank balance they would never send their own children to state school.

 

[MimiRogers]

These discussions have been fascinating and very eye opening! As someone who is not British I have been trying to make sense of what is "an hon" and all this peerage etc. How much do they matter? And do they really impact your life or are they more to "show" that you are the creme de la creme?! Regarding P&D I don't mind that they are not relatable, I certainly don't have anything like the life they do but I do enjoy following them as an insight into their "beautiful" lives, taste etc. I enjoy the HL as it encourages me to read more and I don't have a lot of time to read newspapers etc so appreciate their discussions on articles they found interesting etc. I will be listening with a more tuned in ear next time!

 

[TGreece76]

Pippy d'Fuckington!! hahahahaha

Brilliant

 

[Mbella]

I was quite surprised not to see a review of Pandora's book in the Times or Sunday Times, especially since they did a big feature on her. From memory I think Dolly's book got a glowing write up.

 

[Love_hate_small_town]

No review In the guardian either. A lot of publications ignored it.

Agree with Mbella re mentoring (tried to quote but ballzd it up) and think both genuinely want to do good in the way that most people want to do good - so long as it in no way affects their position. They both speak up about things in a very safe way. They don’t speak up when something might make an upcoming media love in slightly uncomfortable. Like many, they then hide behind the ‘ I don’t review things I don’t like, what’s the point of being negative’ line. That stance is understandable to a point but people in the media who have strong platforms SHOULD be scrutinised. They should especially be held up and scrutinised by a ‘thinker of the generation’.

I don’t dislike Pandora and Dolly for their privilege. I dislike that they only ever acknowledge it to a point and that ultimately they are part of the problem because they don’t want to rock the boat. As they climb higher they pull up the ladder behind them. They are scared of being controversial because they are fiercely protecting their place. They don’t criticise because they don’t want to be criticised by others in the media.

Also, I may be wrong here but I’ve heard pandora say that her mentoring happened ‘organically’. It makes me think that her mentee (?) already moved in the right circles but that is pure speculation.

*** I should say, in no way negatively affects their position.

 

[Silentcritique]

Yep, I’ve been meaning to add to this discussion again because while I have extensively drawn on her privilege, that’s not to say I would know what to do with it. As in, it’s hard to know whether it’s unfair to go into detail about it when I wouldn’t myself know what she can do to help people up that ladder? Mentoring can only do so much and as you said, it’s about being in the right circles. And even saying they should open up the circles, it’s hard to know how? Anyone care to share ideas? I can only think talks at state schools/colleges, that type of thing? And is it unfair to that we expect this of them when they were mostly fashion/lifestyle writers? Honestly I don’t know anymore

I guess the point that many have also made and that the guardian article focussed on, is that it’s unfair to present yourself as a spokesperson for the generation when you are mostly unaffected by the struggles they face?

 

[Jugglegirl]

I see these two anodyne privileged public school blondes who are apparently the new voices of the Millennials and I think of Julie Burchill or Suzanne Moore and how voices like theirs are not heard because they are not afraid to be controversial and tell it like it is.

 

[Love_hate_small_town]

I think they’d both have a lot to offer as mentors in that they’ve made some great career decisions and are both very successful and I think having either as a mentor would be very beneficial I’m just not sure what difference mentoring one person (especially someone from a wealthy/ media background) will make.

I’d personally love to hear an honest discussion between someone like pandora and someone who has made it in the media who is from a non-wealthy, non-Oxbridge background about obstacles, honest perceptions of privilege etc. I think that would be far more useful and I do think school visits would be useful but to be fair also hypocritical - here’s how you can make it in the media - either be mediocre, have a vague desire to and get born into privilege or be one of the very very few who don’t who have to consistently be exceptional and never put a foot wrong.

 

[Mbella]

Yep, I’ve been meaning to add to this discussion again because while I have extensively drawn on her privilege, that’s not to say I would know what to do with it. As in, it’s hard to know whether it’s unfair to go into detail about it when I wouldn’t myself know what she can do to help people up that ladder? Mentoring can only do so much and as you said, it’s about being in the right circles. And even saying they should open up the circles, it’s hard to know how? Anyone care to share ideas? I can only think talks at state schools/colleges, that type of thing? And is it unfair to that we expect this of them when they were mostly fashion/lifestyle writers? Honestly I don’t know anymore

I guess the point that many have also made and that the guardian article focussed on, is that it’s unfair to present yourself as a spokesperson for the generation when you are mostly unaffected by the struggles they face?

I think Dolly and Pandora are at their best when they talk about pop culture and books they like. However, you're absolutely right - they're trying to position themselves as millennial spokespeople which just doesn't feel right - and Pandora's book has brought this discussion to a head (it's why I'm on Tattle!)

I think they also want to involve themselves in social justice conversations e.g. Black Lives Matter, sustainability, working class issues etc but they tiptoe around the edge of these in a very frustrating way and either avoid giving an opinion or parrot the "woke" line of thinking. I think you have to go all in on social justice or just stay out of it.

In terms of what else they could do that would use their skill sets and industry connections:
- Campaign for sustainable fashion, shine a light on unethical brands, make personal commitments to only use sustainable brands
- Make a fuss about the terrible pay situation in journalism which excludes so many people from the industry
- Use their positions to persuade publishers/fashion industry to hire more people from disadvantaged backgrounds
- Explore the troubling issues around social media in meaningful depth and interrogate their own roles in perpetuating this
- shine a light on unpaid internships which are doubtless still going on even if they are illegal - it's possible to do this while acknowledging your own advantage I believe.

The trouble with all of those, though, is that they would potential alienate some sponsors, listeners and employers and might lead to backlash. But making genuine change in the world - something they claim to be for - is never easy.

 

[Love_hate_small_town]

I think Dolly and Pandora are at their best when they talk about pop culture and books they like. However, you're absolutely right - they're trying to position themselves as millennial spokespeople which just doesn't feel right - and Pandora's book has brought this discussion to a head (it's why I'm on Tattle!)

I think they also want to involve themselves in social justice conversations e.g. Black Lives Matter, sustainability, working class issues etc but they tiptoe around the edge of these in a very frustrating way and either avoid giving an opinion or parrot the "woke" line of thinking. I think you have to go all in on social justice or just stay out of it.

In terms of what else they could do that would use their skill sets and industry connections:
- Campaign for sustainable fashion, shine a light on unethical brands, make personal commitments to only use sustainable brands
- Make a fuss about the terrible pay situation in journalism which excludes so many people from the industry
- Use their positions to persuade publishers/fashion industry to hire more people from disadvantaged backgrounds
- Explore the troubling issues around social media in meaningful depth and interrogate their own roles in perpetuating this
- shine a light on unpaid internships which are doubtless still going on even if they are illegal - it's possible to do this while acknowledging your own advantage I believe.

The trouble with all of those, though, is that they would potential alienate some sponsors, listeners and employers and might lead to backlash. But making genuine change in the world - something they claim to be for - is never easy.

Agree with everything!

Also think they do pop culture really well. Their conversation on late 90s/ early 2000s fashion was really funny - quite a while back. I miss the old shows. I know everything and everyone has to evolve I just wish it was in a different way.

 

[Cloak]

In terms of what else they could do that would use their skill sets and industry connections:
- Campaign for sustainable fashion, shine a light on unethical brands, make personal commitments to only use sustainable brands
- Make a fuss about the terrible pay situation in journalism which excludes so many people from the industry
- Use their positions to persuade publishers/fashion industry to hire more people from disadvantaged backgrounds
- Explore the troubling issues around social media in meaningful depth and interrogate their own roles in perpetuating this
- shine a light on unpaid internships which are doubtless still going on even if they are illegal - it's possible to do this while acknowledging your own advantage I believe.

I might be outing myself as a total dick here, but I think that would turn me right off them. I feel like now, everyone has to paint themselves as such a picture of perfection, social justice warriors, etc, which is why everyone's opinion is totally watered down and boring. I do see value in standing up for what you believe in, but I'd want it to be a cause that they really, truly believed in rather than just preaching about the issues of the day.

I'd love them to go proper Joan Rivers and be total sassy witches and say what they actually think

 

[depository]

"Cause everybody hates a tourist
Especially one who, who thinks it's all such a laugh
Yeah, and the chip stain's and grease will come out in the bath
You will never understand
How it feels to live your life
With no meaning or control
And with nowhere left to go
You are amazed that they exist
And they burn so bright whilst you can only wonder why"

 

[Cloak]

"Cause everybody hates a tourist
Especially one who, who thinks it's all such a laugh
Yeah, and the chip stain's and grease will come out in the bath
You will never understand
How it feels to live your life
With no meaning or control
And with nowhere left to go
You are amazed that they exist
And they burn so bright whilst you can only wonder why"

Hahaha I thought of this exact song the other day when reading this thread

 

[queenamber]

I follow Caroline o Donoghue on Instagram and it looks like she's on holiday with Dolly. It's really pissing me off seeing these pseudo-Insta celebs going abroad during a pandemic.

 

[Shugsyshalone]

I ready Dolly’s book before I had even heard of The High Low, and definitely did not know who either of them were. Although I did spend a lot of the time during reading thinking this woman is not relatable to me, she is clearly not from a ‘normal’ upbringing. There was something about it that was relatable, her romanticism and raw emotions along with being of similar age to me are what reminded me of a younger version of myself.
I read the book and then started listening to the High Low because it was an easy listen every week and initially I liked that it was 2 women talking from a women’s perspective on current affairs.

 

[NotDumbNotBlonde]

yes, dolly was a nickname she acquired in her school days I think

I can't believe I didn't know this!