Exactly this!! Too scared to step out of line and also seems everyone is too busy patting each other on the back no matter how good the book is just to make sure they get a good review for their cover in return.
If anyone has any good, honest book review websites/accounts would love to hear.
I’m also interested in the fan echo thing (it needs a name ). It’s almost the opposite of cancel culture whereby a person’s following is so strong and on message that no one dares to speak out or offer any form of criticism. I vaguely remember studying it back in the pre-social media world. I think it’s called ‘imagined audience’ and it’s where a publication/ persons ethos is emulated by their audience. The audience uses the same language, cultural shorthand etc as the person/ brand. Heat magazine did it brilliantly. Scott Mills is really good at it too but you see it everywhere now with social media.
I’m going to look up what I’m waffling about. Probably should’ve done that first and quoted accurately like a good girl.
Having v briefly looked it up it’s not quite what I mean. I think I mean a passive imagined audience. Their legion of fans all speak, look and act the same way and it’s in line with pandora and Dolly. You can hear it I’m the emails they read out (often painfully earnest -although often admittedly quite serious in subject matter - and always at pains to show how frightfully well read/ thoughtful and woke the person is). This comes from someone who has had an email read out. I was such a fan. Maybe I’m bowing out because I don’t read enough anymore to be part of the gang because I can’t find a fecking review I trust.
I also think painting criticism as nasty and troll behaviour halts any discussion which is boring. Pandora could have used this situation to start a discussion, but instead she has ran away licking her wounds and had her manager/agent sharing snarky tweets. Some of these women (Dolly, Pandora, Elizabeth, Emma and that "in blue tick group") are now painted as the voice of the everywoman/a generation. And it's so dangerous if they are not mature enough to consider the views of people who disagree and engage in discussion. And I actually like some of their work, think they are intelligent and do agree with a lot of what they say, so not a "troll".
Criticism doesn't feel nice. But it is useful. At work, I always get feedback on my articles and other things I do. And sometimes my first instinct is to feel a bit irritated if I don't agree/am upset it it's something that I've worked hard on. But most of the time it also leads to: "oh yeah that makes sense/improves this/is something I had never considered". And sometimes if I do disagree with the feedback it can lead to intereating discussion and debate. Because I'm an adult and that is how life works!
I must say I'm really enjoying this thread. Some very intelligent and thoughtful posts here.
Also edit to add another thought: These women have reached a level of success, income and opportunity that the majority of people can't even hope for. And privilege may have helped them get there, but their hard work and the fact people like them enough to follow and support also means something. Yet they can't put a couple of criticising pieces into perspective and consider that maybe they don't get it right all the time? Which is fine because none of us do!
So I read the free kindle sample. And first thing I wanna say is that I was really surprised when i read dolly’s book last summer. I’ve said here before but it was far better and far funnier than I thought it would be and I held my hands up then and admitted I was wrong. I wasn’t above holding them up regarding Pandora’s offering to the world if I thought I’d been unfair in my assumptions...
I wasn’t though. Whoever first said it’s saturated with other people’s opinions, that’s bang on. It feels tediously over researched, the work of someone who at school worked hard and got good grades jumping through hoops ... but she never had an original thought in her life. Or had the courage too. Hence an inability to critically assess what Intelligent statement to include and what isn’t really relevant or useful.
So the kindle sample gives you the short introduction, in which I counted five quotes from other writers, and the first essay (on wellness culture ) in which I quickly lost count of so-called sources ( she rarely develops or returns to the ideas she quotes either). This screenshot I felt well sums up that earnest undergraduate tone - Michel Foucault crops up in some form on just about every BA humanities course in the country. (Of course you will notice another quote from a completely different person on this page too).
What else? I didn’t read one thing about wellness culture I’ve not heard discussed in a podcast or read in an article or even talked about with friends before. Yes we know it’s all over Instagram, yes we know it’s based on (at best) flimsy science and impossible to achieve lifestyles. Yes we know it’s a new way people restrict calories and it has a name - orthorexia. We know the value of wellness as a marketing term in 2020, it’s hardly a rising trend but a well established and hugely profitable industry - as she says herself, Sainsbury’s has a whole wellness aisle. We know it also can be used as a moral judgement - that “clean” eating is a problematic concept and term. We’ve been laughing about Goop for over a decade, so when she lists all the whacky products associated with wellness like crystals or mooncups it’s like mmm a lot of the things that started out niche there are probably available in the Sainsbury’s aisle now... so what’s your point ?
the girl doesn’t even have any of the associated problems privileged people have. The audacity!(please understand I am saying that and the following tongue in cheek and semi-ironically. Of course I’m not criticising her for not having suffered an ED though I am questioning what on Earth she brings to the table on this subject ) She’s never had an eating disorder or even been neurotic about weight, her family all seem to get on swimmingly and just love to sit down and eat together (the extent of her adversity appears to be that shes always liked lunch earlier than her families preferred time of 2pm).
to be fair, a few interesting concepts come up. The way Buddhism is used to sell stuff as no other religion could be co-opted, techorexia was a new term to me and one interesting thought of her own, how our generation is cynical and used to calling out shit while at the same time eats up so much nonsense. None of it is explored tho, there isn’t room. Any vaguely intriguing idea is buried in a torrent of quotes, wry thoughts and quirky references.
Yep I knew several people from uni who chose an ‘edgy’ nickname. You wouldn’t think Lucy could be shortened but apparently so if you want to be pretentious enough
Also knew a photography student who’s name was ‘flash’ because apparently she’d had a camera around her neck since she was old enough to use one bla bla bla
I know someone who has met Pandora and apparently she is a complete bitch. She turns up with an assistant and apparently just sat their stony faced the entire time, rolling her eyes. I find it very hard to listen to the high low and listen to her talk about her insecurities and trying to be so “woke” when I know she’s actually a complete cow. It’s a shame because I really, really like dolly.
I’ve often thought you can hear an eye roll over the airwaves.
The other day dolly did a AMA on insta. Someone asked what her favourite thing was about . She said that pandora never bitches about people behind their backs. That may be true or may be a dig at this thread but she definitely makes snide remarks.
I keep thinking about the niggles I have around their privilege. Several people have highlighted how P and D do acknowledge it more than others and that they are good are sharing their platform with less privileged normos. I do agree but something still irks me and it’s not just the giant chip on my shoulder.
It’s not just P and D but they do have a huge platform and their USP is basically ‘Posh but Woke AF. I am increasingy disappointed by how much they are selling out (the merch, the sly promos and puff pieces that are not adequately flagged, the endless live events)
I’ve also been surprised by some things they’ve recently said and some things I’ve read on this forum. I was really shocked by Dolly’s ‘even my cleaner was disgusted’ (paraphrasing) comment on twitter.Also, when they were discussing ‘Such a Fun Age’ on the podcast they said some things which I found a touch racist (I’d be interested in others’ opinions, maybe I need another listen).They were discussing the part in the book where the wealthy white character Alix was hiding her privilege from her black babysitter, Amira (cutting tags off clothes and pretending to eat leftovers). I read the book and read that as a class thing. The way they Discuss it on the podcast is as a race thing From the assumption that black equals poor. I feel that that whole scenario in the book could be flipped with a wealthy black employer and poorer white nanny of you see what I mean? While so much of that book is about race I don’t think that part necessary was and I found their discussion of it jarring. I also found it interesting that Dolly said she found bits of it very uncomfortable reading (fair enough) and how she cannot imagine ANY of her (presumably white) friends reading it without discomfort around privilege when a lot of the privilege in the book is also surrounding wealth.
I maybe need to re phrase this message When I’m less tired. Does anyone get what I mean?
Just want to add that when they addressed the BLM movement on the podcast (I seem to remember a whole episode being dedicated to it for extra WPWP) they recommended a wealth of books and resources. They mentioned that someone (I think it was Reni Eddo-Lodge) had voiced discomfort about the huge rise in sales linked to the recent BLM events. They suggested various ways of sharing the books that were being suggested e.g getting them second hand or borrowing them from a library (groundbreaking ). Now I know this was in current Covid uncertainty around jobs and economy but FFS it made me so mad on behalf of the authors. They never suggest scrimping on books (Pandora makes a point of mentioning the enormous amount she lets herself spend on books and magazines). They also plug away at their own books. Don’t recall them suggesting people pass around a copy of their book EVER. Instead they bang on about the importance of pre ordering for authors and paying for ‘good’ journalism (regular Times Online plug and The Pound Project - Dolly’s mate). Maybe it was very unfortunate timing and maybe it was a genuine push to get those books read by as many people as possible but it seemed like the work of those authors and academics was not worth paying full price for.
I don’t think it is ok to question the validity of a woman’s experience with PND, even if you’ve had negative experiences with her.
PND has not been taken seriously for so long, and it’s still often dismissed as not serious or important enough for proper action to be taken. I am not a fan of Pandora at all but I’ll never judge or question her experiences with PND.
Anyway, we need a new thread! Title suggestions anyone? OR since The High Low is finished, should we separate them or something?
I SO agree with this, no matter how much money or privilege someone has, it doesn't exempt them from illness and depressions, we must be mindful of that, because it's the exact reason people tend to not open up about these things, which in turn might help people x
Another writer they recommend is Holly Bourne, and I find her overrated too. Such horrible, selfish, narcissistic characters. Pretending had an important topic at its core (rape trauma) but I just hated the plot so much.
It’s always women who work in media or startups, live with their rich best friend in an apartment they couldn’t afford without her, some kind of dating app involved, drama at someone’s wedding or hen party or work event, social media posts give something away in the plot, drinking too much as a sign of the protagonist’s issues, they have amazing animal-esque sex with a man whom you wouldn’t have expected to be good in bed, blah blah blah... it’s like a check list of modern female fiction.
I remember reading the article in whatever interiors magazine it was. It said that "a sense of optimism" helped her complete the house on a short timescale . I wanted to add: "and LOADS and LOADS of cash"
Pandora’s inability to face and explore any criticism is the down side of having everything smoothed by money and privilege. My partner and I often discuss how after about 5 years in our respective industries we felt we really knew our stuff but it was around the 10 year mark that we gained that internal confidence in our skills and knowledge. That confidence gives you such freedom regarding criticism. You no longer fear it because you are fully confident in your position and the worst case scenario is that it’s an opportunity to learn. If you’ve always worked in the same field that happens around the 30 mark.
Pandora has accelerated through her career. She has promoted herself to a level of incompetence.
She gained senior positions very early in her career which do seem to have come as a result of status and entitlement.
She hasn’t done the hard miles. She’s driven and she’s had a lot of jobs but it seems like the worst thing she’s faced is getting into trouble for taking a freebie she wasn’t entitled to (what is it with rich people and free stuff?). I think it’s really telling that her instinct when she gets criticised is to minimise any constructive element -“some true, most of it convenient fiction” , play the parent card (she did this when her daughter was a baby, tweeting something about being at home with Baby feeling flat and now she’s ‘taking time off with my baby’) and allow her circle to close in and defend her then add and delete sub tweets. Basically deny, elicit sympathy, hide and encourage others to fight for you.
No review In the guardian either. A lot of publications ignored it.
Agree with Mbella re mentoring (tried to quote but ballzd it up) and think both genuinely want to do good in the way that most people want to do good - so long as it in no way affects their position. They both speak up about things in a very safe way. They don’t speak up when something might make an upcoming media love in slightly uncomfortable. Like many, they then hide behind the ‘ I don’t review things I don’t like, what’s the point of being negative’ line. That stance is understandable to a point but people in the media who have strong platforms SHOULD be scrutinised. They should especially be held up and scrutinised by a ‘thinker of the generation’.
I don’t dislike Pandora and Dolly for their privilege. I dislike that they only ever acknowledge it to a point and that ultimately they are part of the problem because they don’t want to rock the boat. As they climb higher they pull up the ladder behind them. They are scared of being controversial because they are fiercely protecting their place. They don’t criticise because they don’t want to be criticised by others in the media.
Also, I may be wrong here but I’ve heard pandora say that her mentoring happened ‘organically’. It makes me think that her mentee (?) already moved in the right circles but that is pure speculation.
*** I should say, in no way negatively affects their position.
In terms of what else they could do that would use their skill sets and industry connections:
- Campaign for sustainable fashion, shine a light on unethical brands, make personal commitments to only use sustainable brands
- Make a fuss about the terrible pay situation in journalism which excludes so many people from the industry
- Use their positions to persuade publishers/fashion industry to hire more people from disadvantaged backgrounds
- Explore the troubling issues around social media in meaningful depth and interrogate their own roles in perpetuating this
- shine a light on unpaid internships which are doubtless still going on even if they are illegal - it's possible to do this while acknowledging your own advantage I believe.
I might be outing myself as a total dick here, but I think that would turn me right off them. I feel like now, everyone has to paint themselves as such a picture of perfection, social justice warriors, etc, which is why everyone's opinion is totally watered down and boring. I do see value in standing up for what you believe in, but I'd want it to be a cause that they really, truly believed in rather than just preaching about the issues of the day.
I'd love them to go proper Joan Rivers and be total sassy bitches and say what they actually think
Christ, Pandora thinks she’s bloody Alain de Botton on Fearne Cotton’s podcast.
Loved her response to Fearne’s introduction (Fearne suggested that P must have felt that she wasn’t doing her life right otherwise she wouldn’t have written the book), she might as well have replied ‘No, my life is perfect but my presumptuous little brain thinks all the commoner millennials are getting it wrong, so I thought I’d write an utterly pointless book about it’.
Do you all remember when Dolly was talking once about attending friends’ birthday parties? I remember Pandora saying it’s good etiquette to turn up and not cancel, and Dolly said sometimes you just HAVE to cancel. But her solution was to phone up the pub or venue and have a bottle of champagne delivered to the table. I’ve just revisited that and realised how bloody narcissistic that move is. Oh look at me, I’m amazing because the whole table will have to be interrupted as a bottle of Veuve is delivered — so although I can’t be bothered to attend your party, I’ll still steal the show.
I think they've had so much criticism over the last year, I don't blame them for wanting a lower profile. Particularly as a lot of the criticism has been on Twitter and from other journalists and writers.
They've also been held up as what's wrong with media (white, privileged) whereas they do actually seem to try and give space to diverse voices on the podcast.
I wish they'd reduced the frequency rather than just stopping it. I'll be paying for the final show as overall I've loved the podcast and think Dolly and Pandora are generally good people.
For sure and I don’t think that I necessarily want to read an author who comes from the same background as me but I think that there is an awful lot written and produced by people from a very similar background and I wish there was room for more voices. I really like a lot of P & D’s content but I’m not sure how much content is needed from the same perspective - podcasts, articles, newsletters, fiction, non fiction, tv shows, films from hundreds of Pandoras and Dollys. I’m so glad that there is so much female driven content at the moment, I just wish it was more diverse but maybe this is a stage that needs to happen.
We cannot ignore the fact that they really go out of their way to bring in different voices and different perspectives though, come on. That's a huge part of their podcast!
I honestly think I'm the only one who is sick of them apologising for/admitting their privilege. I feel like they do it every 5 minutes to the point I want a disclaimer on at the start of their podcast that you can skip. Who cares? Is there any point? I think at this point the responsibility is on the reader or listener to manage their own feelings around that, like be a big girl and realise everyone has a different path in life, some luckier than others, just get on with it
This thread has been so interesting to read. I’ve gone from being a huge fan of the High Low to feeling bored and irritated by it. I think it has stopped feeling like a conversation and instead is like pre-prepared opinions being read out. Sometimes one will do a monologue on something and the other will then just switch to a monologue on a different topic. It is disjointed. I’ve also realised that the big words they use hide the lack of critical analysis of things they are saying.
I think the podcast is beginning to disappear up its own butt: for fear of saying something offensive they try so hard to be woke and it really kills the conversation. You can tell they’ve become self conscious about their influence and are terrified of being cancelled for saying the wrong thing. It deadens the dialogue- also Pandora in particular is trying so hard to be perfect it’s just repellent. Dolly on the other hand seems to have a drink problem and is incredibly vain - it detracts from her brand of honest girl about town- I’m so tired of hearing another story about her and her mates getting drunk.. boring and self centred. The trouble is they’re both posh girls who have built these media careers and now are the media establishment- seriously all these types interview each other and write reviews of each other’s books and it’s all so predictable and utterly unoriginal. I sense they k ow it too - people who actually have exhausted their imaginations already, aged 32.
I’m so glad I found this thread. I used to absolutely love the podcast but I now practically hate listen to it.
Dolly started to grate on me pre pandemic when she kept crying at everything. I’m all for a bit of emotion but it seemed like every week she was crying over a book or a poem. The way she says ‘my memoir’ really bugs me for some reason. I really enjoyed her book and actually bought it for several friends but I’m over it. She absolutely rinsed the crap out of it with the endless tour and plugs.
As for Panda, I had warmed to her but I feel that she too is rinsing away now her book is out. I don’t think she’s a great writer but I guarantee her book will get amazing write ups, as Dolly’s novel will when it comes out. They all just harp on plugging each other’s books.
Also, while I’m here, I feel that dolly has no idea who she is still. She emulates sixties sirens and hedonistic hippy vibe but it just doesn’t ring true. The down side of being so privileged is that actually money has smoothed the way so much that there is a lack of substance.
Finally Pandora is definitely a ‘cool girl’... I don’t diet, care about makeup or exercise and I eat crap. I must just be naturally rail thin and immaculately presented.
I’m also interested in the fan echo thing (it needs a name ). It’s almost the opposite of cancel culture whereby a person’s following is so strong and on message that no one dares to speak out or offer any form of criticism.
I think this simply sums up the current social culture, and why people come to pages like Tattle to discuss their opinions.
Whether it’s a writer, an artist, a fitness guru. If anyone dares to disagree or give constructive feedback or criticism, they are usually (publicly) called out as if they have said/done something appalling. Cue being called a bully, troll, jealous and so on.
I am not talking about needless nasty comments, I’m talking about genuine feedback or pointing out that someone has said something inappropriate or mis-educated.
I’m all for celebrating people’s success, but there seems to be very skewed views on what success actually is these days.
Yep, I’ve been meaning to add to this discussion again because while I have extensively drawn on her privilege, that’s not to say I would know what to do with it. As in, it’s hard to know whether it’s unfair to go into detail about it when I wouldn’t myself know what she can do to help people up that ladder? Mentoring can only do so much and as you said, it’s about being in the right circles. And even saying they should open up the circles, it’s hard to know how? Anyone care to share ideas? I can only think talks at state schools/colleges, that type of thing? And is it unfair to that we expect this of them when they were mostly fashion/lifestyle writers? Honestly I don’t know anymore
I guess the point that many have also made and that the guardian article focussed on, is that it’s unfair to present yourself as a spokesperson for the generation when you are mostly unaffected by the struggles they face?
I think Dolly and Pandora are at their best when they talk about pop culture and books they like. However, you're absolutely right - they're trying to position themselves as millennial spokespeople which just doesn't feel right - and Pandora's book has brought this discussion to a head (it's why I'm on Tattle!)
I think they also want to involve themselves in social justice conversations e.g. Black Lives Matter, sustainability, working class issues etc but they tiptoe around the edge of these in a very frustrating way and either avoid giving an opinion or parrot the "woke" line of thinking. I think you have to go all in on social justice or just stay out of it.
In terms of what else they could do that would use their skill sets and industry connections:
- Campaign for sustainable fashion, shine a light on unethical brands, make personal commitments to only use sustainable brands
- Make a fuss about the terrible pay situation in journalism which excludes so many people from the industry
- Use their positions to persuade publishers/fashion industry to hire more people from disadvantaged backgrounds
- Explore the troubling issues around social media in meaningful depth and interrogate their own roles in perpetuating this
- shine a light on unpaid internships which are doubtless still going on even if they are illegal - it's possible to do this while acknowledging your own advantage I believe.
The trouble with all of those, though, is that they would potential alienate some sponsors, listeners and employers and might lead to backlash. But making genuine change in the world - something they claim to be for - is never easy.
. She said that pandora never bitches about people behind their backs. That may be true or may be a dig at this thread but she definitely makes snide remarks.
