Defund the police and more

[whathastheworldcometo]

Defund the police doesn't mean abolishing the police force or cutting pay or cutting back on police numbers.

It's about cutting back on astronomical police budgets
It looks to shed more light on police spend, cutting back and reinvesting the money in the local communities.

I think the name 'defund police' is stupid and misleading especially for those who don't read beyond the headlines.

It's about cancelling pensions, it's about not allowing bent coppers to resign on full pensions, it's about not allowing killer coppers to keep their huge pensions. Coppers that have been convcited of rape and served sentences have been able to keep their police pensions.

Four police officers spent three weeks partying in Spain when they should have been catching crooks.

Also sick pay is a huge problem across the UK with forces. One cop was off sick on full pay for four years with a bad back and spent most of that time on the golf course until a local newspaper exposed him. One of many. There is a lot of financial abuse.


I'm not anti police I'm just explaining what 'defund the police' actually means.

They need to change the name of the group as it's ridiculously misleading.

I agree with you.

I once reported fraud to the police and they did f*** all. He should have called me back but was on sick leave for four months and then "forgot".
Then it happened again (committed by the same individual) and they did f*** all. And the police person I spoke to was really dodgy, he asked me questions about my pets (?), requested that I would phone him, wanted to talk on a Friday night (?) and I found him generally misogynistic. I asked to speak to a female officer but was told no.
Third time I took civil action and went to court and paid for it (legal fees, court fees).
I considered suing the police as if they would have taken proper action the first time it happened then it wouldn't have happened twice more.

If there would have been a department at the council that I could speak to that would have done something about it or given me advice then this would have helped.

When I see police on the street I walk around them, some of the lads walking around with guns scare me.
I would feel uncomfortable if I ever needed them as I really don't trust them.

Agree with this. And as I have said previously if we are going to do this with the police on the grounds that they are publicly funded then you must also look at the sickness records for NHS staff, teachers, social workers, and council staff. It would surely be only fair and what community groups want most of all is fairness right?

I do think that the "absence records" of all public workers should be looked at.
In the private sector you dont have any employment rights for the first two years and your absences are being monitored also, why should it be different in the public sector?

I agree about treating everyone in a profession by the actions of select individuals. It's not fair, and I don't understand why the police force has been singled out.

I think that the sentiment has arisen as many people (women especially) have had bad experiences with the police.
So the perception is that it is not just a "few select rotten apples" but a more general approach that the police takes.
And to be truthful: it was not just George Floyd and not just Sarah Everard (although her case is a tragic exception - but look at how many other officers are now being investigated for racial /misogynistic texts etc).
Events like the police actions at the vigil in March don't help with public perception either.

I do acknowledge that there are very good policemen, but I think that many people have lost trust in the police.

 

[Taetae95]

I'll admit I'm not the most well read on the topic so I don't have a strong stance either way. From what I understand it's not suddenly getting rid of all police but involves a shift in society overall towards community, prevention and rehabilitation. More funding for social workers and other community workers to help people in the first place, little to no prison sentences, etc. I feel like it would take a huge change in attitudes, funding and government to implement something like this though.

Police can do good but there are many who abuse their powers and especially poc who have worse experiences with them so I understand why there is a lack of trust in them. Idk what the answer is but I think putting funding and energy into things proposed by the defund crowd would help society in general even aside from policing so I think it's worth considering some of their ideas.

 

[NeverEnough]

I'll admit I'm not the most well read on the topic so I don't have a strong stance either way. From what I understand it's not suddenly getting rid of all police but involves a shift in society overall towards community, prevention and rehabilitation. More funding for social workers and other community workers to help people in the first place, little to no prison sentences, etc. I feel like it would take a huge change in attitudes, funding and government to implement something like this though.

Police can do good but there are many who abuse their powers and especially poc who have worse experiences with them so I understand why there is a lack of trust in them. Idk what the answer is but I think putting funding and energy into things proposed by the defund crowd would help society in general even aside from policing so I think it's worth considering some of their ideas.

Or to put it another way, little to no consequences.

Most of the criminals I have known over the years enter into crime because they weigh up the potential gains, against the repercussions, and come down on the side of the gains. Hence those who “ain’t got tit to lose” are more likely to end up committing illegal acts then those who have successful careers and money in the bank. It’s desperation and greed which are the motivating factors.

Take away the repercussions and, well, you get more going for the gains. And I don’t think an intervention and the tacit disapproval of their peers is going to change their mind.

And to be truthful: it was not just George Floyd and not just Sarah Everard (although her case is a tragic exception - but look at how many other officers are now being investigated for racial /misogynistic texts etc).
Events like the police actions at the vigil in March don't help with public perception either.

I do acknowledge that there are very good policemen, but I think that many people have lost trust in the police.

Go on then. How many out of the total police workforce? You bought it up.

 

[Taetae95]

That's what I meant - improving society overall e.g. more help for those less well off, assistance to get jobs, social workers, professionals to help with substance abuse or mental health issues, community facilities so kids aren't in the streets as much etc etc. Obviously it won't take away all crime or be an overnight solution but I don't see what's bad about putting money and effort into generally improving society which would then take away one of the motivators for crime for a lot of people. (I never said anything about getting rid of police or prisons above). Meanwhile the government just keeps on making cuts which only hurt people and then when there's a problem the solution is seen as more policing.

Tbh at the end of the day empathy is needed to look at the larger scale and sadly people usually tories will always look down on certain members of society and have a mentality of punishing others or pulling themselves up by the bootstraps in difficult circumstances so I don't expect agreement.

 

[whathastheworldcometo]

Go on then. How many out of the total police workforce? You bought it up.

I brought it up you mean.

Well, google is free for everyone to use, but I have a link for you: five in relation to WC.
I don't think it is a small number, but perceptions my vary.

Sarah Everard killer 'swapped sexist, racist and homophobic texts' with serving police officers

The police watchdog said messages shared on a Whatsapp group between March and October 2019 were of a “discriminatory and/or inappropriate nature”

inews.co.uk

There is obviously a problem within the Met police, I don't see how this can be denied.

 

[NeverEnough]

That's what I meant - improving society overall e.g. more help for those less well off, assistance to get jobs, social workers, professionals to help with substance abuse or mental health issues, community facilities so kids aren't in the streets as much etc etc. Obviously it won't take away all crime or be an overnight solution but I don't see what's bad about putting money and effort into generally improving society which would then take away one of the motivators for crime for a lot of people. (I never said anything about getting rid of police or prisons above). Meanwhile the government just keeps on making cuts which only hurt people and then when there's a problem the solution is seen as more policing.

Tbh at the end of the day empathy is needed to look at the larger scale and sadly people usually tories will always look down on certain members of society and have a mentality of punishing others or pulling themselves up by the bootstraps in difficult circumstances so I don't expect agreement.

In the United Kingdom at the moment every child has access to full access to education from the age of 4-16. We have a universal free health service. We have a comprehensive social security system as a safety net to support you through the bad times. Here is a list of “community facilities” in my city alone.

Community Centres in Sunderland, Tyne And Wear

Find Community Centres in Sunderland, Tyne And Wear on the Sunderland Echo directory. Get reviews and contact details for each business including phone number, postcode, opening hours and photos.

findit.sunderlandecho.com

Here are is a list of the leisure facilities available, most of which have discounts available of up to 100%.

Active Sunderland - Sunderland City Council

www.sunderland.gov.uk

And that doesn’t take account of the free libraries supplied, the free community play parks, and after school clubs offered by the teachers (and yes, shock horror, police) usually unpaid in the free time of the individuals. Hell every morning I go to work I walk past an expensive skate part which from what I can see is used by teenagers to drink cider. With all this on offer if kids are still hanging out on street corners it’s because that is exactly where they want to be.

Exactly how much “help” do some people need . Sadly some people usually lefties just love to keep people dependant on the state. One must never take responsibility for their own shortcomings right?

 

[whathastheworldcometo]

In the United Kingdom at the moment every child has access to full access to education from the age of 4-16. We have a universal free health service. We have a comprehensive social security system as a safety net to support you through the bad times. Here is a list of “community facilities” in my city alone.

Community Centres in Sunderland, Tyne And Wear

Find Community Centres in Sunderland, Tyne And Wear on the Sunderland Echo directory. Get reviews and contact details for each business including phone number, postcode, opening hours and photos.

findit.sunderlandecho.com

Here are is a list of the leisure facilities available, most of which have discounts available of up to 100%.

Active Sunderland - Sunderland City Council

www.sunderland.gov.uk

And that doesn’t take account of the free libraries supplied, the free community play parks, and after school clubs offered by the teachers (and yes, shock horror, police) usually unpaid in the free time of the individuals. Hell every morning I go to work I walk past an expensive skate part which from what I can see is used by teenagers to drink cider. With all this on offer if kids are still hanging out on street corners it’s because that is exactly where they want to be.

Exactly how much “help” do some people need . Sadly some people usually lefties just love to keep people dependant on the state. One must never take responsibility for their own shortcomings right?

I looked at the sites and tbh it doesn't look that attractive to me.

But apart from "leisure centres" children also need someone to talk to, someone who understands them.
Women need support that the police obviously does not provide.

My own experiences with Met police were negative. I reported fraud, various times, they did nothing as it was my former partner.
I had sleepless nights and anxiety attacks and had to spend serious money on lawyers etc to essentially help myself.
Talking to the police was not just a waste of time but another source of stress.

 

[Caffeine Fiend]

I have a family member who is a cop and the stories I hear are horrifying. He was telling me he knows of 2 different police officers who have contacted women theyve met in the line of duty by using information taken during statements etc to track them down to pursue them romantically. They were caught and kept their job.

I work for the public sector, if we are found to use any information about any individual in a way not related to the work we do, we get fired. Right away. Its gross misconduct and there is no holding on to your job.

So whilst I absolutely do not want there to be no police service, which isnt what defund means. Why is it one rule for one, but another rule for another?

Also Id rather funds were used in better ways. I know so many police officers atm going out with faulty equipment, panic buttons that dont work. Clerical staff have been reduced so actual police officers are having to do much more paperwork which reduces how many police there are on the streets. As I said I have a close family member who is a police officer and when they tell me how many cars/staff are available at any one time for quite a vast area Im horrified. Might just be Police Scotland but Im under no illusion that its all sunshine and smiles for the cops out there working however when stats come out that 50% of police officers found guilty of sexual misconduct keep their jobs questions need to be asked.

 

[Yel]

I've had some terrible experiences with the police in the UK which reinforce the view that they look after themselves even when in the wrong. Just my experience and it wouldn't be fair to judge the whole force.

A suspected drunk off duty met police officer wrote off a friend's car crashing into it but when the on duty "independent" police officer arrived he conveniently failed to breathalyse anyone. They colluded to intimidate someone innocent in their early 20s who hadn't been driving for long and made her think she was in trouble when she'd done nothing wrong. Her insurance went up, she had minor injuries for months and now probably has a lifelong distain of the police due to two officers with very poor conduct. She didn't take it further.

I know of several other cases like this. But of course defunding isn't the answer. The systemic issues need to be addressed. I'm not suprised public confidence is low as they don't seem to attend often - another friend called up when a burglary was in progress and they wouldn't attend .

It attracts the best and worst people for the job. Friends I know in the met seem to very quickly pick up bad traits when someone experienced takes them under their wing and passes them on.

Very tricky job that seems to be getting even harder to do. I think their benefits (like the subsidised housing for the first two years) have been reduced.

 

[whathastheworldcometo]

I've had some terrible experiences with the police in the UK which reinforce the view that they look after themselves even when in the wrong. Just my experience and it wouldn't be fair to judge the whole force.

A suspected drunk off duty met police officer wrote off a friend's car crashing into it but when the on duty "independent" police officer arrived he conveniently failed to breathalyse anyone. They colluded to intimidate someone innocent in their early 20s who hadn't been driving for long and made her think she was in trouble when she'd done nothing wrong. Her insurance went up, she had minor injuries for months and now probably has a lifelong distain of the police due to two officers with very poor conduct. She didn't take it further.

I know of several other cases like this. But of course defunding isn't the answer. The systemic issues need to be addressed. I'm not suprised public confidence is low as they don't seem to attend often - another friend called up when a burglary was in progress and they wouldn't attend .

It attracts the best and worst people for the job. Friends I know in the met seem to very quickly pick up bad traits when someone experienced takes them under their wing and passes them on.

Very tricky job that seems to be getting even harder to do. I think their benefits (like the subsidised housing for the first two years) have been reduced.

Sorry, I didn't want to react with "haha" but with the shocked "wow" face right next to it. Apologies!

And sorry for what your friend experienced, it is v wrong

 

[caterday28]

In the United Kingdom at the moment every child has access to full access to education from the age of 4-16. We have a universal free health service. We have a comprehensive social security system as a safety net to support you through the bad times. Here is a list of “community facilities” in my city alone.

Community Centres in Sunderland, Tyne And Wear

Find Community Centres in Sunderland, Tyne And Wear on the Sunderland Echo directory. Get reviews and contact details for each business including phone number, postcode, opening hours and photos.

findit.sunderlandecho.com

Here are is a list of the leisure facilities available, most of which have discounts available of up to 100%.

Active Sunderland - Sunderland City Council

www.sunderland.gov.uk

And that doesn’t take account of the free libraries supplied, the free community play parks, and after school clubs offered by the teachers (and yes, shock horror, police) usually unpaid in the free time of the individuals. Hell every morning I go to work I walk past an expensive skate part which from what I can see is used by teenagers to drink cider. With all this on offer if kids are still hanging out on street corners it’s because that is exactly where they want to be.

Exactly how much “help” do some people need . Sadly some people usually lefties just love to keep people dependant on the state. One must never take responsibility for their own shortcomings right?

Free education can continue until the age of 18, if that's what you choose.

I don't really have much to add, but despite labelling myself as left-wing I do agree with what you've said.

 

[Phoenix Lazarus]

Looks like the police, or at least some of them, are defunding themselves by fraud.

Jaffa Cakes allegation prompts Halifax PC's misconduct hearing - BBC News

 

[NeverEnough]

I brought it up you mean.

Well, google is free for everyone to use, but I have a link for you: five in relation to WC.
I don't think it is a small number, but perceptions my vary.

Sarah Everard killer 'swapped sexist, racist and homophobic texts' with serving police officers

The police watchdog said messages shared on a Whatsapp group between March and October 2019 were of a “discriminatory and/or inappropriate nature”

inews.co.uk

There is obviously a problem within the Met police, I don't see how this can be denied.

So 5 under investigation out of a total officer complement of 33800 approx.

Number of police officers in London 2023 | Statista

There were 35,900 police officers in London in 2023, an increase of 1,032 officers when compared with previous year.

www.statista.com

Or to put it another way 0.01% of the total workforce.

As you say, perceptions may vary.

 

[whathastheworldcometo]

So 5 under investigation out of a total officer complement of 33800 approx.

Number of police officers in London 2023 | Statista

There were 35,900 police officers in London in 2023, an increase of 1,032 officers when compared with previous year.

www.statista.com

Or to put it another way 0.01% of the total workforce.

As you say, perceptions may vary.

No, this is not what the article says. Please read it carefully.

It says there were five officers under investigation that were linked to WC only! Five more in his team with these attitudes!

If you think this is a small number then I would be very concerned.

Please do your own research if you want to know how many policemen and - women are under investigation /have been investigated in total.
I don't know why you would ask me to do the work for you?

With regards to preceptions: I think nobody in the police should have misogynist or racist attitudes.

 

[NeverEnough]

No, this is not what the article says. Please read it carefully.

It says there were five officers under investigation that were linked to WC only! Five more in his team with these attitudes!

If you think this is a small number then I would be very concerned.

Please do your own research if you want to know how many policemen and - women are under investigation /have been investigated in total.
I don't know why you would ask me to do the work for you?

With regards to preceptions: I think nobody in the police should have misogynist or racist attitudes.

I have done the research. There is currently nowhere which shows a definitive number of police officers currently under investigation. And that is the conclusion I will draw until you provide the information you seem to believe you’re in possession of. I’m really not entirely sure why you are being evasive about this, surely this is a good outlet in which to post your truth no? A forum for debate.

I've had some terrible experiences with the police in the UK which reinforce the view that they look after themselves even when in the wrong. Just my experience and it wouldn't be fair to judge the whole force.

A suspected drunk off duty met police officer wrote off a friend's car crashing into it but when the on duty "independent" police officer arrived he conveniently failed to breathalyse anyone. They colluded to intimidate someone innocent in their early 20s who hadn't been driving for long and made her think she was in trouble when she'd done nothing wrong. Her insurance went up, she had minor injuries for months and now probably has a lifelong distain of the police due to two officers with very poor conduct. She didn't take it further.

I know of several other cases like this. But of course defunding isn't the answer. The systemic issues need to be addressed. I'm not suprised public confidence is low as they don't seem to attend often - another friend called up when a burglary was in progress and they wouldn't attend .

It attracts the best and worst people for the job. Friends I know in the met seem to very quickly pick up bad traits when someone experienced takes them under their wing and passes them on.

Very tricky job that seems to be getting even harder to do. I think their benefits (like the subsidised housing for the first two years) have been reduced.

Make a complaint | Independent Office for Police Conduct

www.policeconduct.gov.uk

 

[Blueblue123]

I think it's more about defunding the whole policing to prison system that doesn't actually reform most criminals.

Police do their job, yes but in a lot of cases, lack of money and infrastructure aside, their biases stop them from doing their job properly. That's why you get women reporting harassment from men and being told to come back "when an actual crime happens". Because the education isn't there to understand that it's not just a woman moaning or feeling mildly uncomfortable, it's her intuition saying she's in a potentially dangerous, maybe fatal situation.

A lot of social sectors have been stripped of money, but the idea is to not put the majority of it into prosecution measures but redirect it into the community and be preventative.

If we actually had a society that truly tried to deal with misogyny, racism, anti social behaviour etc then we wouldn't need to rely on the police so much and they wouldn't be overworked due to a lack of funding.

 

[whathastheworldcometo]

I have done the research. There is currently nowhere which shows a definitive number of police officers currently under investigation. And that is the conclusion I will draw until you provide the information you seem to believe you’re in possession of. I’m really not entirely sure why you are being evasive about this, surely this is a good outlet in which to post your truth no? A forum for debate.

Make a complaint | Independent Office for Police Conduct

www.policeconduct.gov.uk

Not sure why I am being evasive?
If you have done the research and no information is available, how should I collate the information?

I find the fact that five (!!!) other officers exchanged indecent messages with WC, I think this is appalling enough. Far too many.
(I provided the link "I was in possession of".
No wonder he wasn't investigated for his indecent conduct just days before he killed and raped someone, if so many people in his team seem to have negative attitudes toward women.

Yes, this is my perception of the situation.
Do you find this to be acceptable? Normal?

 

[Blueblue123]

Some of the most heavily policed people in society, the ones who live in low income area and/or minority groups where it's common to see 3 or 4 police vans parked on the street for the evening "just in case", will tell you how fruitless a lot of that police presence is.

Stop and search is branded as a preventative measure against knife crime but studies show very few searches lead to an arrest. Why not put the money into a community program that keeps kids busy, out of trouble and realigns their thinking so they're not motivated to be violent and commit crime?

Oh and regarding the latest plan to implement a tracking service for vulnerable, at threat women:

Exactly how much “help” do some people need . Sadly some people usually lefties just love to keep people dependant on the state.

Relying on police is a reliance on the state...

It's just spreading that burden to other sectors where the outcome isn't a fine or prison sentence. And potentially nipping any problems in the bud before they develop into a crime.

A society that can't function without being heavily policed isn't a civilised one in my opinion. Take away the police and sanctions, we all go rogue because we haven't actually been taught how to behave, we've just been taught how to avoid prison.

I'm not anti police at all, but I'm aware they're not the solution to everything.

 

[NeverEnough]

Sorry to bump this thread after so long but I think this item of news is current and relevant to this thread.

Minneapolis Election: Voters Reject Question To Replace Police With New Agency

Minneapolis residents on Tuesday voted against a proposed amendment that would have removed the city's police department from the city charter and replaced it with a Department of Public Safety.

minnesota.cbslocal.com

The background to this is well known. Minneapolis was the epicentre of BLM and was where George Floyd was murdered. The city council has been overseeing “progressive policies” which have resulted in soaring crime rates, ironically enough the worst of which are centred in the mainly black areas which these policies were designed to protect. (I guess the local gangs don’t respond well to virtual hugs from middle class white folks).

Anyway after months of this situation the electorate have chosen to reject these policies and retain the police department.

More detailed analysis here

Minneapolis voters reject plan to overhaul city policing

Minneapolis voters on Tuesday soundly defeated a controversial measure intended to remake policing in the city. In a stunning turn, two City Council members who supported the change lost their bids for reelection.

www.mprnews.org

Interesting that a higher proportion of the black community supported retaining the Police Department. I thought BLM was the mouthpiece of a united black community?

 

[whathastheworldcometo]

not directly on-topic, but directly related: the "bed of lies" podcast describes how the met police pretended to be activists and got romantically involved with female activists for the purpose of spying