Constance Marten and Mark Gordon Case #4

[Itchy of Itchington]

Is that usual to retire the Jury?

If there's other case management to be done either by the Judge or Barristers it can happen. When I did jury service 10 years ago we got sent home at lunch time til the following week and then the next day the Judge from my trial was sentencing a right rum one for various drugs and violence offences. It could also be because of issues directly related to the Marten and Gordon that the prosecution and defence needs to work out.
As a juror it means you know you don't have to turn up to court the next day (and won't get expenses that day)

 

[heretoreaditall2019]

I'd agree with this - that particular road is (or used to be) on the local driving test route, I've practiced 3 point turns and parallel parks there back when I was a learner. It's a very normal quiet (hence being on test routes) family area, ex council houses but mostly owner occupied or single family rented, not HMOs (legal and illegal) that you see in parts of East London. I'd not realized they were living in that part of Eltham before.
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The clothing thing is puzzling me, I know it's all trying to make rational sense of people who are behaving irrationally but if they had thought to get all those clothes, snowsuit etc initially for the baby, why did they then not think to replace them?

Agreed - like obvs HMOs exist everywhere but swathes of south London was re/built post war so it’s largely filled with typical small-ish 3 bed terraced council houses which have historically and continue to suit families more so than slum landlords (that’s not to say there aren’t problems with housing standards in south tho!!). Whereas a lot of east has those beautiful Victorian houses that have been chopped up into warner flats or 8+ bed HMOs. Also the demographics in south are v different, dare I say there’s a lot more diversity? A lot of second, third gen adults too so likely more aware of services they can contact with any concerns, and more likely to engage with British news media I suppose?

^ all of this meant kindly as a second gen south London girly, albeit a white woman.

 

[MrsJones83]

I'd agree with this - that particular road is (or used to be) on the local driving test route, I've practiced 3 point turns and parallel parks there back when I was a learner. It's a very normal quiet (hence being on test routes) family area, ex council houses but mostly owner occupied or single family rented, not HMOs (legal and illegal) that you see in parts of East London. I'd not realized they were living in that part of Eltham before.
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The clothing thing is puzzling me, I know it's all trying to make rational sense of people who are behaving irrationally but if they had thought to get all those clothes, snowsuit etc initially for the baby, why did they then not think to replace them?

this is what bothers me too. They had a hat, a snowsuit, nappies for her, she did have a babygrow on at some point, and a witness says she had leggings on in one sighting, they bought a pushchair (not the best but better than nothing), so they knew enough about what she’d need, and then didn’t follow through?

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

Starting this by saying there’s absolutely zero excuse for the lack of warm clothing or shelter.

Warm clothes for the baby should have been the absolute priority before a buggy that was discarded the same day.

But, I suspect that they were trying to ration the cash they had, for fear of her accounts being frozen and/or being tracked down if using cashpoints, so after the ridiculous taxis they panicked, they bought a tent (for shelter) and a buggy (instead of being in their coats), but then didn’t spend much more.

There’s no logic to it. So many things do not make sense because we are looking at it with sensible views and they were being irrational and desperate not to be found.

 

[heretoreaditall2019]

Starting this by saying there’s absolutely zero excuse for the lack of warm clothing or shelter.

Warm clothes for the baby should have been the absolute priority before a buggy that was discarded the same day.

But, I suspect that they were trying to ration the cash they had, for fear of her accounts being frozen and/or being tracked down if using cashpoints, so after the ridiculous taxis they panicked, they bought a tent (for shelter) and a buggy (instead of being in their coats), but then didn’t spend much more.

There’s no logic to it. So many things do not make sense because we are looking at it with sensible views and they were being irrational and desperate not to be found.

TW - reference to VAGW

Also agree completely. Whilst they were found with £400 on them, that was all they knew they were going to have for the foreseeable future. Their hunger evidences that they were prioritising transport costs above everything else, as they wanted to escape from the inevitable.

Complete speculation there but with how prolific the Sarah Everard case was (would I be right in saying hers was the last as high profile missing persons case to happen in this country?) they’d have known that a component of Wayne Couzen’s whole life sentence was that he chose to set alight to her body as a means of concealing evidence. I suspect that’s the only reason they didn’t do it, as others have pointed out refusing to share the location of the baby’s body doesn’t align with genuinely wanting an autopsy.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

TW - reference to VAGW

Also agree completely. Whilst they were found with £400 on them, that was all they knew they were going to have for the foreseeable future. Their hunger evidences that they were prioritising transport costs above everything else, as they wanted to escape from the inevitable.

Complete speculation there but with how prolific the Sarah Everard case was (would I be right in saying hers was the last as high profile missing persons case to happen in this country?) they’d have known that a component of Wayne Couzen’s whole life sentence was that he chose to set alight to her body as a means of concealing evidence. I suspect that’s the only reason they didn’t do it, as others have pointed out refusing to share the location of the baby’s body doesn’t align with genuinely wanting an autopsy.

I honestly think they were going to, to conceal evidence, but then CM couldn’t go through with it.

The refusal to disclose where the body was was them holding onto the last bit of power they had.

 

[gimmethattea]

Lucy Letby had a lot of delays and days with the jury being sent home for all various reasons.

I can't believe how strong the prosecution evidence has been so far. I'm not sure how the defence can even attempt to justify some of their behaviour other than saying they did it out of love and the want to keep the baby.

Even with no official cause of death, I can see that their choices and actions made what happened inevitable.

And the fact they had slept rough in tents before with a previous child just shows that it wasn't isolated to being on the run, they just didn't care.

 

[Milliemoo99]

This case is so tragic. I now know why the media made such a fuss about this couple! Neither of them seem remotely capable of caring for a baby. Thats what makes it so disturbing. they seem to live in a parallel world, where they dont understand basic survival stuff.

The car burning was an accident, but why on earth neglect some basics, why on earth didn't they buy suitable clothing, a snowsuit, a baby carrier and a backpack to carry nappies etc.....almost all big supermarkets provide this kind of stuff.
Why not leave the baby somewhere safe, even after she had died. Leave her somewhere peaceful, like a church porch etc...not just stuffed in a plastic bag.....so .......disrespectful

 

[da1sycha1n]

I'd agree with this - that particular road is (or used to be) on the local driving test route, I've practiced 3 point turns and parallel parks there back when I was a learner. It's a very normal quiet (hence being on test routes) family area, ex council houses but mostly owner occupied or single family rented, not HMOs (legal and illegal) that you see in parts of East London. I'd not realized they were living in that part of Eltham before.
---
The clothing thing is puzzling me, I know it's all trying to make rational sense of people who are behaving irrationally but if they had thought to get all those clothes, snowsuit etc initially for the baby, why did they then not think to replace them?

especially if they were in a Morrison's store as I seen on a previous post, I'm sure Morrison's all have the Nutmeg range of clothes and even the smaller store have a huge range of baby clothes. no excuse for not getting the poor little soul adequate clothing!

 

[Ray_of_Sunshine]

I thought it was interesting she put bad girl in inverted commas but not bad man

Really interesting that these types all write incriminating little notes same as that other horror Letby.

 

[Yano]

When the case is over usually more details come out don't they? So we will find out much more.

 

[MedeaWho]

When the case is over usually more details come out don't they? So we will find out much more.

It’s not always the case where children are involved.

 

[Skinnydogs]

It’s not always the case where children are involved.

Won't they do a serious case review ? They give more info and history on those

 

[Bagpuss20]

Won't they do a serious case review ? They give more info and history on those

I would think it would go through CDOP through - they'll definetly be looking at the multi agency actions considering theyve beem on their radar before.

 

[TheArtisticMouse]

How is this case a SS failing though?

 

[HistrionicSites]

How is this case a SS failing though?

Perhaps they will consider the response made in this case and whether that had a direct or indirect on the outcome. I would hope that if something similar happens in the future, there will be less media involvement and more covert surveillance.

 

[casperon]

How is this case a SS failing though?

We don’t know if any referrals or calls were made

 

[MedeaWho]

Perhaps they will consider the response made in this case and whether that had a direct or indirect on the outcome. I would hope that if something similar happens in the future, there will be less media involvement and more covert surveillance.

Without media involvement they wouldn’t have been captured.

 

[terfette]

All of those SS haters that cheered this couple on whilst they ran. I hope they are biting their tongues. Social workers don’t remove children without a good reason. If anything, I think they are too lenient these days.

These two should never had their hands on any babies.

Those types never seem to realise that social services don't have the final say either, a judge does, and if the evidence isn't there, a judge won't side with them. One of the social workers I was referring to when I said the odd one I've had a problem with, still had to give the report shed done on me when my daughters dad took me to court. It was full of irrelevant balls and the judge went mental, he was red in the face shouting at her, asked her where she came from and threw her out of court saying "well get in your car and go back there then".
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And the suffocation risk of sleeping in a tent which they are reported to have been told previously.

That’s probably why they’re saying the date she died was just as they were sleeping in it. Until 8th Jan they were in hotels or in taxis overnight.

Yes that's what I think, that the January 9th date is to take weight from the negligence claim as they were in hotels until then.

I think she died later and the "tried to preserve the body" claim is her attempt to explain why there wasn't as much decomposition as you'd expect when they found the body in march.
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I wonder if this was how it felt to find out about the crimes of Rose West or Myra Hindley as they happened, like shock at what a woman or a mother (not that MH was I don’t think?) can do.

I asked my mum about this Hindley, West and Beverley Allitt when Lucy let by was on trial and the nut job supporters were coming out, she said she does remember some discussion in the beginning from people who couldn't understand women doing such things, and with West and Hindley, wondering whether they'd been forced by the men.

 

[Eltonjohnsflorist]

I don’t think this is a serious case review. Victoria had no contact with social services