Constance Marten and Mark Gordon #6

[HotesTilaire]

I think it is inefficiency in part, wasn’t there at least one day where the judge was also listed on various other cases with this slotted in between? @InTheDollsHouse had the screenshot I think.

Inefficient because you’re never going to be able to make any serious progress in a case like this if you’re slotting in in an hour between other things, it’s not a simple he nicked the £100 worth of meat from Tesco and here’s the cctv to prove it. The judge should surely be dedicated only to this or at least say this will only be M W F and the other cases in between.

The judge being busy as a likely reason 1 day, 2 days? For the fire alarm
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But then why was the jury dragged there yesterday, made to wait around half the day and then sent home? And then reporters were told the trial would resume today (and presumably the jury came back) and now it's not on again. That's inefficiency.

Because of developments which come up then require further consideration, or more information.
If you haven’t seen that side of things it’s hard to grasp. In this case I’d expect this kind of thing because of a) the other children b) she’s got quite the KC

 

[Aberscot]

I hope they are both listening and taking notes today when they heard the statement about the poor kid looking for them at the contact centre, how could anyone do that to their own kids who apparently they were desperate to have and keep.
And they were told previously that a couple of sleep suits and nappies were not sufficient for a newborn.
Mention of physical abuse also no wonder the kids were removed just a shame too late for baby Victoria,

 

[HotesTilaire]

I think it is inefficiency in part, wasn’t there at least one day where the judge was also listed on various other cases with this slotted in between? @InTheDollsHouse had the screenshot I think.

Inefficient because you’re never going to be able to make any serious progress in a case like this if you’re slotting in in an hour between other things, it’s not a simple he nicked the £100 worth of meat from Tesco and here’s the cctv to prove it. The judge should surely be dedicated only to this or at least say this will only be M W F and the other cases in between.

*judge laughs a hollow laugh, as do the Barristers*

 

[blueblue]

sorry.. the carpet thing regardless of whether or not CM needed a new carpet or was living in undesirable/unsuitable accommodation she didn’t accept the help (as far as we know) and she had the funds to be able to sort all of those things out herself.
This is not a case of she couldn’t provide a safe environment.. as far as I can see it is that she WOULDN’T.
It was well within her means to provide for Victoria (and probably for the other children too) but she chose to live and life which put her baby/babies in grave danger.
Perhaps she believed she didn’t have a choice but in my eyes she did (they both did) and their choices led to that wee girls life being cut short!
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I got laptops a few years ago for my children through a Scottish government scheme for rural areas, they were distributed by the HV team and it wasn’t means tested. We’ve never had SS involvement but at the time were considered vulnerable due to an unstable living situation (in short terms let’s while waiting for house purchase to go through). All of my children were under five at the time and we were given two laptops no questions asked and still have them to this day.. we signed paperwork when they were delivered that says they are our property not the property of Scot gov etc.

We have one of the Scottish Government bikes for my son, no questions asked, not means tested but you could very much tell it discreetly targeted families in need of support. I think this is a great way to get round anti-SS parents.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

From this article sounds like after the placement SS closed the case and it was only then reopened after they had the second child.

Sad to hear they weren't consistent turning up for supervised visitation leaving one child inconsolable. Does any one know if by the time they went on the run the children had been adopted or were they still allowed visitation ? If so how awful to just disappear on the other children. They say they wanted to keep Victoria so badly but what about the other children they couldn't be bothered to turn up to visitation for. I really feel sad for all 5 of their children they deserved better.

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial: Four children taken into care

A jury hears Constance Marten claimed she had not been to school - but was in fact from a wealthy family.

www.bbc.co.uk

This is the best reporting of today I think

 

[HotesTilaire]

Finally some background!
I wonder what is fuelling her desire to live in tents? I think it’s because they cause havoc in some way, so she doesn’t want “neighbours”. Inconsistent in visiting their children, too. It could be DV, but I suspect some usual level of paranoia too. And or substances.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

So this is why she left the baby at hospital. It’s not excusing it, but it wasn’t a case of her just walking out. I’d probably want to go in person.

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DV is why the care order was made

 

[Unicorn_Poop]

I think the contact centre evidence will be very damning in terms of contradicting their portrayal of doting parents

 

[Aberscot]

Finally some background!
I wonder what is fuelling her desire to live in tents? I think it’s because they cause havoc in some way, so she doesn’t want “neighbours”. Inconsistent in visiting their children, too. It could be DV, but I suspect some usual level of paranoia too. And or substances.

Maybe lack of paying rent too, it was mentioned they were evicted at some point.
But considering the state of the holiday cottage after only a few days I am not surprise.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

The BBC link (as far as I can work out) says that FF was under interim SS care and that’s why CM went to the supervised placement.

They got somewhere to live, and FF was then back under care of the parents under SS supervision, and then full care responsibility was passed back to CM/MG.
All seemed okay.

Then they moved from Wales and had three more children - GG, HH, II - and SS got involved again with GG

GG is referred to as their second child - so if there are twins it’s HH&II

I can’t see anything about the last two children, to work out whether they were removed at birth, or concealed pregnancy/birth.

 

[HotesTilaire]

Maybe lack of paying rent too, it was mentioned they were evicted at some point.
But considering the state of the holiday cottage after only a few days I am not surprise.

Not sure about the rent - I believe rent may not have paid, but I just get a vibe that they don’t want to be around people. That makes me think they’re doing something problematic and/or there’s some next level paranoia about “the government” knowing who and where they are.
Refusing to attend the conference via video link and going in person, despite the consequences.
He kept up his register, despite this chaotic, homeless, moving around countries.

 

[neroli]

They are just utterly evil, I honestly believe that. Producing children just to discard them! That comment for their eldest child when they failed to show up to supervised visits desperately wanted to keep Victoria did they! It’s almost laughable; had all the means & resources to keep 4 kids yet deliberately abandoned them yet have the audacity to claim they wanted to be parents! Evil evil twisted game playing manipulative fuckers

Completely agree with you. They are heartless, cunning and manipulative. They gambled with their own children's wellbeing and ultimately, lives.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

The BBC link (as far as I can work out) says that FF was under interim SS care and that’s why CM went to the supervised placement.

They got somewhere to live, and FF was then back under care of the parents under SS supervision, and then full care responsibility was passed back to CM/MG.
All seemed okay.

Then they moved from Wales and had three more children - GG, HH, II - and SS got involved again after the birth of GG.

GG is referred to as their second child - so if there are twins it’s HH&II


Why go through all of that SS process, get yourselves straight, only to give it all up again.

 

[sebanna]

I think CM and MG didn't believe in contraceptive and as a result CM was permanently pregnant. The non stop babies wouldn't have helped with the caring of the existing children.

Doll's house, I also noticed that the reason CM and MG left their baby was to attend a courthearing, which puts a different spin on the "abandonment".

If there is domestic violence, CM's KC must be desperate to use it, to suggest she was in an abusive relationship to scared to challenge him.

 

[Haveyouanywool]

I don’t think the jury, and probably the judge, will have any sympathy for them.

 

[whitershadeofpale]

I hope they are both listening and taking notes today when they heard the statement about the poor kid looking for them at the contact centre, how could anyone do that to their own kids who apparently they were desperate to have and keep.
And they were told previously that a couple of sleep suits and nappies were not sufficient for a newborn.
Mention of physical abuse also no wonder the kids were removed just a shame too late for baby Victoria,

Not sure about the rent - I believe rent may not have paid, but I just get a vibe that they don’t want to be around people. That makes me think they’re doing something problematic and/or there’s some next level paranoia about “the government” knowing who and where they are.
Refusing to attend the conference via video link and going in person, despite the consequences.
He kept up his register, despite this chaotic, homeless, moving around countries.

Some of Mark Gordon’s police interviews and their belief that SS have authority if you stay somewhere for more than 3 days makes me think that they believe in the freeman of the land type stuff.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

Maybe lack of paying rent too, it was mentioned they were evicted at some point.
But considering the state of the holiday cottage after only a few days I am not surprise.

One place was left with significant damage (smoke damage I think)

 

[Misselphaba]

I can see why MG may prefer to live outside of society/whatever you call choosing to live in a tent in the woods. In the context of his earlier lengthy incarceration, there’s probably a certain amount of trauma around feeling trapped etc and I can see why choosing to live outside may come a result of that.

What I don’t get is why CM lived like that. The only way I can understand it is in the context of DV relationships where parents decide to stay together even when children’s services tell the parents that their child will be removed unless they separate.

Chaotic lifestyle, DV and mistrust of authority/services is a dangerous mix but even with that in mind it’s still the most bizarre case. I keep thinking that there must be drugs involved but it doesn’t look like it. Then I think it must be mental illness but that hasn’t been mentioned yet.

 

[apple-tea]

Long time lurker here. I've been following these threads and various other forum discussions a lot over the past few weeks and have lots of questions... apologies, it's a big'un!


Having sought no antenatal care when pregnant with Victoria, Constance obviously didn't have an accurate idea of how far along she was. The cottage in Northumberland area appeared to have curry stains across the kitchen if I remember correctly. Perhaps she felt she was overdue and wanted to book remote accommodation for her birth and attempted to trigger the birth with a curry? The prosecution don't seem to be buying her story and it maybe seems she gave birth in the car A witness stated it seemed they were living the car, perhaps the fire resulted from excessive use of the car's heating to keep them and their newborn worn? The fire may have literally been a day or two after Victoria was born, absolutely crazy.


In light of today's news coverage of them living in a tent with Child FF, I just cannot fathom how anyone would willingly choose to live in a tent in the midst of British winter. Let alone care for a newborn baby in there too? How did they ever wash the baby or themselves? What did they eat? Where were all their belongings if it was such a tiny tent? I get that they're are the anti-establishment type but I'm not buying that they chose this as part of their 'alternative lifestyle' whatsoever. Has it been stated anywhere where exactly this tent was pitched?

If they really were about an alternative lifestyle away from society, then surely they would choose somewhere really remote? There are some beautiful little cottages in Wales for example, that are extremely remote and cheap as chips (must have been no more than £400pm around about that time). If they were estranged and isolated from their friends and family, with neither of them working then surely it didn't matter where they lived? Why were they always remaining in or close to London? If you truly want an off-grid life, then London is literally the last placed you'd want to live.

I know there hasn't been any mention of it yet but I feel there absolutely must be drugs involved somewhere. I feel there's too much going on that leads to drugs, such as:

• Choosing to remain in London - up until they went on the run, they chose to remain in London all this time. Maybe that was to remain near the contact centre(s) to visit their children but they'd still be able to travel to these if they really wanted to live off grid
• His drug dealing rumours - I read on another forum that they actually met as he was her drug dealer. The poster stated it was a rumour going around but I guess this is plausible given his serious previous convictions and how it would be hard for him to find work. It would also be a good way for him to meet people/make friends having been in prison for so long on the other side of the world. I definitely don't buy her story that they met in a shop! Do people really meet their soul mates in a shop?
• Missed appointments - It's been stated she's missed important appointments. One being a Zoom meeting with her private bank to release more money before they went on the run. And also the contact centre visits with her children that we've learnt about today (truly heartbreaking). I can't think of many reasons she'd failed to attend these apart from drugs/benders. I went through a chaotic period in my 20s where I used cocaine and alcohol to numb the trauma and pain I was experiencing. I'd take it too far by having a couple of drinks to relax which would turn into huge binge-drinking session and getting the bags in. Her inconsistent and chaotic behaviour just screams cocaine use to me. If you're someone who constantly has a lot of noise going on in your head, Coke is great for calming the noise and can make you feel 'normal'.
• No ante-natal care: Was this down to her anti-establishment views or was it because she was a drug user?
• Poor finances - If she was receiving £2.5k per month, whilst this isn't a huge amount, it should have been enough to live on a few years ago if they're living on the outskirts of London I'd say? They don't seem to be living extravagant lifestyles in terms of clothing, beauty, etc and definitely don't seem to be very social people? So where was all this money going and why were they getting to the stage of being evicted? Were they splashing out on drugs a lot? If MG was a dealer as rumoured, did he owe money to his boss? Perhaps this was why they wanted to go off-grid and the reason they were so paranoid (pure speculation obvs)? Perhaps them going on big benders would explain why neighbours stated they were away from the property for large periods of time.
• The text they received in the taxi - One of their taxi drivers reported that Constance received a text which led to a change of destination on their taxi ride. I've always been curious about this and whether they were going to pick up?

I also think drugs would be a huge contributing factor as to why they weren't fit to be parents. I don't think CM is evil, I think she genuinely loved all her children but suffers with significant MH issues and trauma. If drugs were involved, would be 100% know by now? Perhaps we haven't due to drugs being a leading factor in the children being taken into care and this hasn't been reported due to restrictions?

I can't get past MG's violent past, especially now that we have heard there was DV. I don't think it's a coincidence whatsoever that CM seemed to live a fairly normal life (compared to recent years at least) and maintain good relationships with F&F, right up until she met MG. I think she has severe trauma from the cult experience and MG had sensed her vulnerability and had somehow controlled her into cutting all ties with her previous life. I'm very intrigued to know how far into their relationship she found out about his violent past and what exactly he told her about this. Does anyone know how it would work in terms of the SO register? Would she have been informed of the full details by the authorities?

 

[Haveyouanywool]

Why would you sleep in a tent when you had a camper van? Even if it wasn’t working.
Apart from the other disadvantages of the tent, it’s not secure.
Could it be impounded due to unroadworthyness or outstanding fines.