UK Literary Luvvies

[youguyzzz]

I feel like this group of people are basically "women who used to write for The Pool"

I was so unsurprised when that site went down, it was so boring, just people writing about how much they love the hamstead heath ladies pond.

 

[MavisWilton]

This pic I just don't understand. Aren't you mortified when you look absolutely nothing like this at all?!!

View attachment 2062379

See, I just don't think this is necessary, and this is why people think Tattle is a bitch-fest. Making fun of someone for their looks is just always horrible. Dolly doesn't have control over what image they use to promote the event, or her book, and come on, it is clearly her. Wouldn't you want a reasonable image of yourself on promotional materials?!

I watched the live stream of this event last night, at a time when I'm feeling particularly down, and it gave me a real boost. There's a reason why Dolly is so successful- because she's got that undefinable thing, that X factor of relatability, even though she's yes, posh and privileged. She is clearly a lovely, empathetic, sensitive, smart person. I really enjoyed the conversation between her and Katherine, and the audience seemed to be having a great time too. There are so many issues we're all going through, I know this thread is a laugh and yes the literary London circle can be extremely clique-y, but sometimes the stuff they put out there really helps people and gives them a lift when they're feeling low.

At least she's doing it. At least she's putting herself out there and if she's monetising her experiences and views on the world, I say, fair play to her. Yes she's coming from a position of privilege, we all know that, but she's still talented, and has a real ability to connect with women. That is rare.

I wonder how you'd feel if people were shitting all over your looks when you've had several number one bestsellers and a column, tv show, etc. But I'm guessing you haven't had any of those things.

 

[Walkthehemline]

Her need for a child obviously dominates her life and I have no doubt that it's incredibly difficult for her.

This article really got my back up though because I hate women asking other women to dull their shine. Yes, we can all be mindful of our language and should not boast of how incredibly easy it was to conceive or whatever it may be. But if your friend wants to share the fact they're having a child, and that they love that child, why on earth shouldn't they? Most of us will envy something about other people's lives but we're allowed to celebrate what we like and we're each responsible for our feelings.

She says she wouldn't post about her "expansive mansion" etc because "it’s thoughtless to those who don’t have these things" but she frequently shows off about her million pound house in central London, her millionaire husband, that bloody Peloton, plus she posed on top of a PILE of her books only a few days ok (which was the ninth that she's published, by the way).

I'm fine with her doing that but she shouldn't be telling anyone off for sharing their privilege when she does so much of it herself.

 

[cee-bee]

I couldn’t afford to intern and wanted to work in the media which has short contracts so my CV was unrelated temp job, media job, unrelated temp job, media job… I kept getting rejected because “another candidate had more experience”- unpaid internships that gave them bigger blocks of experience

picking this back up from the Dolly/Pandora thread..

this was a huge problem for me too when I first entered the full time workforce in the early teenies. I think post financial crash, companies were able to get away with this more than they can now (maybe) but unpaid internships are exploitive, and locked many talented people out of the workforce.

I always felt it was almost a conscious thing - it meant you’d get a free worker who’d come from the “right background”.

i remember a girl I knew who was pretty unexceptional, got an internship for Henry Holland in London. Her parents paid her rent for her, gave her an allowance. They essentially bought her entry into the otherwise difficult fashion industry.

Henry Holland himself is cut from the same cloth as all the media luvvies. He only got a breakthrough as a designer because of his friendship with Agnes Deyn (they were childhood friends and when she became an “it” girl she basically promoted his work).

off topic slightly but fashion is another industry very similar from my point of view, to media.

as a society, it’s like we’ve gone backwards in terms of being more conscious about class and creating more carriers for those from a lower socioeconomic economic background. Look at the quality of books being promoted now, written by the dolly’s and Pandora’s - utter tosh. Richard Osmans books are hyped to the nth degree and are so poorly edited because I guess they just don’t feel the need to invest in quality.

same with fashion: the most recent big trendy names for example, Rixo and Shrimps - are fashion houses founded by ultra wealthy women. Working class individuals wouldn’t get a foot in - but when the fashion industry opens its doors a little wider, we get geniuses like Lee McQueen.

 

[elwb]

This is the thing. Zadie Smith is a billion times more talented than all these women put together. Would Zadie watch Dolly's TV show? Read Pandora's book? Listen to Day's podcast or follow Gammon on Twitter? Not in a million years.

I heard Zadie Smith admit in a podcast she’d give a good coverline to a friend even if she thought the book terrible. She had the integrity to admit it and it was fascinating to hear her debate the ethics. rather than these women who just circle around one another’s podcasts/coverlines/festivals saying nice things about any old crap.
Zadie was only talking about the circumstances of a good friend - these women are rent a quote in the promise of getting one in return from anyone.
Holly Bourne is another offender. Dawn o porter - who I saw admit on Instagram barely reads. Imagine Zadie Smith saying I don’t really read apart from occasionally promoting her media mates work?
It’s so irritating. On the high low there were some great reviews and recommendations but in the end you had to unpick where it was just this circle who need free promo and it became pointless.
I actively avoid books any of these people are on the cover of. I know tattle has a bad rep for just being horrible but tbh a thread like this is important to stop us being ripped off quite frankly.

 

[queenamber]

Scarlett Curtis. Especially when she talks about how she’s too depressed to work… from Richard and Emma’s country mansion.

 

[NomDeGuerre]

Urghh the ‘I see you, I love you’ crap is grinding my gears at the moment. I’m hearing it everywhere and it’s lost all meaning and just sounds like syrup. Great, you see me. Wtf am I meant to do with that in the middle of my health spiral/ mental breakdown/ other crises? Wave? I heard one MAFS contestant say it to another following a commitment ceremony and it made me mentally gag.

I’m aware this is my second MAFS reference in recent pages. It’s an addiction and I can only apologise.

Please don’t worry - I see you and I love you.

 

[queenamber]

How to Fail book by Elizabeth Day
How to Fail podcast by Elizabeth Day
How to Fail live tour by Elizabeth Day
How to Fail merch by Elizabeth Day
Failosophy by Elizabeth Day
And just in time for the Christmas/New Year cash grab, Failosophy FOR TEENS by Elizabeth Day.

Someone please make it stop

 

[SharkAttack]

Just discovered this thread. LOVING every moment of it and there's a glorious 33 pages.

Adding this in so I can find it again after I've cooked the burgers I'm about to make. But what a joy. Scarlett Curtis does my head in, Elizabeth Day is INSUFFERABLE. I don't mind Dolly and Pandora although very happy to read the bitching as I think they're a bit 2D and thus overrated.

Off to make another V&T. Sorry if you think it's weird that I'm liking your posts from October.

 

[soph30]

I can be very basic! Some really do lack total self awareness

In a way though it’s just vapid influencer culture with a more cosmopolitan, sophisticated veneer for women who are too intelligent and educated (or feel they are) to be interested in reality stars etc. Most people don’t really have any hobbies or interests but floating around like Dolly, Panda etc talking about feminism in a few lines, saying books are vital in a few lines (they never delve deeply or incisively into these issues to stay media friendly) writing articulate essays about themselves and their relationships and posting Instagram thirst traps and all their gifted items is a more viable and soulful lifestyle choice than just posting Instagram thirst traps and all their gifted items, and makes them feel interesting
None of the luvvies as far as I know have ever posted one proper hobby or interest that makes them interesting? It’s just vapid culture dressed up as being a sleek but bohemian female. Aware and informed, yet palatable and media friendly

They often miss the intersectionality of these issues too. It’s not their fault they’re all white, privileged and educated but growing up as a woman with societal attitudes is very different when you’re female and disabled, or female and poor, or a woman of colour. It’s all very well to talk about self worth when that’s all society brings you anyway as it’s built for people like you…

 

[jenmarks]

See also vital, timely, whip -smart.

 

[cee-bee]

I’ve said this before but it’s always people with mental health issues and nothing else that bang on about it (I do think it’s good to speak about how you’re feeling and raise awareness though). Mental health issues often co-exist with other conditions- you never see people with cancer for example and mental health issues going on about the mental health issues. With the luvvies it will be their only issue having pretty charmed lives and private medical care- I’d like to hear someone for whom it hasn’t been such smooth sailing have a book, I’d find that more relatable.
I’m aware mental health is not a competition and doesn’t discriminate.

thing is, it does discriminate.

the upper middle class literary types making a writing career out of having depression, experience a totally different perspective than someone poor, working class with depression. And frankly, in today’s society, victimhood is social currency. If you’re white, rich and well connected you don’t have much by way of the latter so mental health can provide that. You’re not a boring, spoiled rich kid - you’re a survivor with an interesting story all of a sudden.

Bella Mackie is able to write a trite book and make money/a career from her depression. Depression that, statistically she is more likely to recover from that people from a lower socioeconomic background. Those people won’t ever get a book deal. Their depression isn’t a ticket out of a career dead end. It’s the horrible realisation that there is no escape

people of lower socioeconomic status having a higher likelihood of developing and experiencing mental health problems, but if you glance at the authors writing on the topic, you wouldn’t think so.

I suffered anxiety and depression as a teen - family money worries didn’t help but the real problem? It was the constant nagging worry that there was no escape from the cycle of poverty. That realisation single handedly fed my depression for years. A book from someone who understood what that felt like and how to overcome it - would’ve meant more than Bella’s rather patronising take that running helped her.

and of course, Bellas experience of mental health is her experience and it’s not about having a competition over who has it worst. The issue for me is - for every Bella Mackie who cashes in on daddy’s literary connections - there are hundreds of clever, talented people with rich experiences who don’t get a look in, probably it doesn’t even occur to them that that is an option. No connections in the literary world means you might as well not bother.

I don’t think this means Bella shouldn’t write about her experiences per se, but… why couldn’t she turn down the publishing offer? Suggest that they offer the opportunity to someone else? She already had a huge platform and influential circle of support. Her voice doesn’t need to be amplified.

it isn’t brave of someone like Bella, to cash in on her mental health and on her connections. It just isn’t. She doesn’t hit the best seller lists because her books are well written, or because they are especially creative or vibrant. It’s because she’s gotten a head start into writing based on who her dad is. It’s because she’s a minor celebrity, married to another minor celebrity and benefits from exposure.

it would be braver if she decided to try and change the status quo. It would be brave if she decided that the system was unfair and she wouldn’t participate in that. It would be brave to put herself at an ever so slight disadvantage for a change. But none of them are ever that brave. But no, Bella accepts that five figure book deal for her latest crappy fiction book about murder and continues to revel in her privilege whilst pretending it’s all down to her talent and hard work.

 

[queenamber]

She criticises people for sharing their children online and compares it to bragging about sharing big houses or expensive cars, but that analogy could just keep going until there's no winning. What about her constant sharing of writing or book deals when there's people out there who have worked for years at writing or securing a book deal only to get nowhere? What about her sharing of her all best friends when there's people out there who feel lonely and isolated and struggle to make new connections? She shares her cat constantly. What about people who are longing for a pet and can't have one?

I get what she's saying about thoughtless baby announcements and I do think people (women especially!) need to be more mindful about other people's fertility journeys or child-free decisions but I think she's being a bit unfair. You can criticise every single person on social media for sharing parts of their lives. It's always going to offend someone whether intentional or not.

From the piece:
I wouldn’t post about my glorious babies on social media in much the same way as I wouldn’t post about my expansive mansion or my fleet of Bentleys (not that I have any of those), because it’s thoughtless to those who don’t have these things. Forget the language of privilege for a second: isn’t it just lacking in basic empathy? Isn’t it just being a good human?

 

[queenamber]

Nailed it.

 

[queenamber]

 

[Love_hate_small_town]

Urghh the ‘I see you, I love you’ crap is grinding my gears at the moment. I’m hearing it everywhere and it’s lost all meaning and just sounds like syrup. Great, you see me. Wtf am I meant to do with that in the middle of my health spiral/ mental breakdown/ other crises? Wave? I heard one MAFS contestant say it to another following a commitment ceremony and it made me mentally gag.

I’m aware this is my second MAFS reference in recent pages. It’s an addiction and I can only apologise.

 

[4dominoes]

Oh lord it’s just a list of luvvies and those with diverse names that have been studiously chosen
(Panda’s book)
Edit- just in case anyone thinks badly of that comment I’m not saying the diverse names aren’t deserving, just that there’s a reason they’ve been added

I don’t agree with this comment at all? I’m not sure who on there you’re referring to as luvvies other than Elizabeth Day and Dolly Alderton? It actually strikes me as a really well curated list of newcomers who have had huge recent success (Paul Mendez, Caleb Azeumah Nelson), literary heavy hitters who have been around for a while (William Boyd, Ruth Ozeki) and beloved writers of more commercial fiction (Marian Keyes, Nick Hornby). I think it’s a great list to be honest and I find the implication that the diverse authors have only been picked as tokens incredibly offensive as dismissive of their talents.

I also really don’t agree with this threads view that these women are Instagrammers who only talk about shallow things. Most of them came up as journalists. I don’t think fashion, interiors or love and friendship are more ‘shallow’ topics but that they’re often dismissed as such because they tend to be more of interest to women. I also don’t find Dolly’s analysis of female friendship shallow. I’ve said many times I thought Ghosts was rubbish and fiction writing isn’t her strength but she’s written beautifully about female friendship many times - in EIKAL, her columns and journalism, her newsletter etc. The Sentimental in the City podcast was also GREAT at analysing friendships.

Reading this thread makes me feel like these women can’t win and honestly a lot of it seems like they’re being dismissed just because they’re privileged. They totally are, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re not talented and I find these threads much more interesting when people are fairer about these things.

 

[Jelly Bean]

So I don't follow any of this lot, but Daisy's latest piece in the Guardian is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. It's ostensibly about how she realised her husband was the one when less than a year after getting together he gifted her 'one simple, heartfelt gift to show me he was the one' - a book. Sounds nice and sweet. It's a first edition of The Pursuit of Love. A quick google suggests the cost of one is upwards of £750. So, maybe a nice thought but ultimately the sort of gift that only someone minted can give. All just a bit baggy dressed up as something that's supposed to be sweet.

Eeuww just read it - possibly one of the most nauseating things I've ever read. Could anyone find themselves quite so fascinating?

 

[Spilttea]

I want to say the epitome of luviness although not London centric is Marian Keyes, used to love her and her books, but at some point in the last decade or so her writing style changed, the books are now a mishmash of everything and not very interesting or compelling.

She also seems to have leaned into her airy fairy oirish tweenesss persona wrapped up in expensive skincare and makeup.

 

[Love_hate_small_town]

I was going to suggest Bella too although I quite like her. The only thing that rules me is she also doesn’t acknowledge her privilege. Her dada was editor of the guardian and working there was one of her first jobs. Her MH struggles meant that she didn’t finish uni and had learnt on the job (always helpful to have a national broadsheet editor around to take a look over your submissions).

I admire how open she is re MH and think she is quite funny and fearless but I would love it if she’d shown all these qualities whilebeing open about what was handed to her. I don’t think it would’ve taken anything away or made her less successful.


Also slightly resentful about buying her running book. As a runner with MH challenges I was really looking forward to it but felt like it was very light and fluffy and not v useful. Didn’t get the rave reviews.

Also, saw Panda post about being cold the other day with some reference to resisting putting the heating on. It drives me crazy when incredibly wealthy people pretend the have the same concerns as everyone else. As if she is sitting in a cold house.