The JonBenét Ramsey Case.

[CarmenGhia]

The bowl of pineapple with her brothers fingerprints , she had eaten pineapple according to the autopsy report but her parents never fed her any! The lack of semen but a sexual assault occurred, a 9 yr old would need help to write such a long ransom note if the brother is guilty her parents covered for him, the whole thing seems really off and immature.

I know this is a really old post, but the pineapple argument is a red herring. A 6 year old is perfectly capable of helping herself to a bowl of pineapple if it was out on the side. I get the impression JB was quite young for her age in some ways, but not to the extent of not being able to pinch a bit of tinned fruit from a dish. She probably dipped her fingers in directly, if she was anything like the children I know.

 

[Justhereforthedrama]

I don’t think they’d had needed to stage the crime scene if BDI, they had enough money for good representation etc to make sure it was only ever recorded as an accident/normal sibling row gone wrong. There was just simply no need for the rest of it all, and I don’t think any injuries she had would have indicated obvious CSA if they weren’t looking for it so no need to cover it up for that reason either.

I go back and forth on the parents vs intruder, but the parents had hours to stage the scene etc potentially. If they’d done it, I can’t help feeling they’d have got rid of JB’s body, if they were that cold blooded they’d do the paintbrush and garrotte, I find it hard to believe they wouldn’t go the whole way - even if they did leave her somewhere easily found ultimately. Similarly if they were covering for Burke tbh.

I just cant say either way who I think did it, literally every bit of evidence in this case can be interpreted any way. Every expert on this case is being paid to come up with evidence that supports the payer's side.

E.G

The abuse
Police: she was taken to the doctors 27 times with vaginitis, evidence of CSA (abrasions), hymen disruption (I.E Oh look, she's sexually abused!)
Ramseys: she was not abused, here's a redacted autopsy (I.E she was not abused at all! how dare you suggest that)
Truth: she was taken to the doctors 27 times, with vaginitis once, the rest either yearly check ups or coughs\colds\a fall at a market etc. Her paediatrician had full and detailed notes. She had bed wetting issues. she was abused during the crime but it was unclear if it had happened before (I.E not historically)

The window
Police: absolutely no sign of forced entry (first officer who visited and in subsequent reports) (I.E it must be someone in the house)
Ramseys: We think we locked up last night but we cant be sure. John smashed a window last year?
Truth: No one knows if the house was secured and a window was smashed then feasibly and intruder could have put their hand through and unlatched, gaining access. Some how police missed this in their initial searches as well as a body in the basement

The ransom
Police in interviews including Linda Arndt: Notably the Ramsey's didn't mention that the ransom window had closed and no call came in, Jon was cordial and relaxed (very suspicious!)
Police report from Lina Arndt, detective on scene: (summarising) : I arrived on scene 8am-ish. John Ramsey ran into the den any time the phone rang and informed me each time that it wasn't the kidnappers, we had a recorder set up on that phone. John was anxious and i had to give him a job to calm him down (that's when he found the body)
Truth: they didn't even know when the call was to come in. It said 'between x and Y hours tomorrow' so it could have meant the next day, John collaborated with the detectives in setting up the recorder on the house phone

The evidence
Police: the Ramsey's wont collaborate, they wont be interviewed, they wont give us their clothes, bank statements, phone records etc (ooh suspicious)
Ramseys: we have been advised not to speak by our lawyers, and anyway they haven't even asked! (I.E the police are suspicious AND incompetent!)
Truth: the DA's office wouldn't authorise the police to interview the Ramsey's, they wouldn't approve phone record collection or bank statements.

 

[monga]

The saxophone thing was absolutely ridiculous

Yeah! I don’t know how that woman came up with the idea

 

[rainbowlemon]

Not to derail Madeleine's thread.


This is the newest documentary with her father done with 60 mins AUS.




This is the documentary that made me suspect the brother.



The people involved in the discussion:

Dr Henry lee - forensic scientist. Worked on the OJ simpson case + founder of the institue of forensic science.

Jim Fitzgerald : Forensic Linguist & profiler. Worked on the Unabomber case.

James Kolar : Investigator for the Boulder DA.
Stan Burke : Statement analyst (also gone through Maddie's parental statements).

Dr Werner Spitz : Forensic pathologist.

Worked on the MLK assassination and JFK case.

The mother hangs up the 911 phone call. The tape still captures sound. They amplified it using modern technology.

Patsy can be heard cleary saying :

"What did you do?"

The 911 emergency listener also says it's the first time in 20 years that anyone even spoke to her.

Her initial reaction was that something wasn't right.

 

[Hally34]

Also not sure if it’s been discussed here before, but the Ramsays claim that there were in excess of 15 spare house keys out in the world - they claim that friends / housekeepers and other staff had keys and didn’t seem very security conscious! If true, it’s possible that the killer may have spent a prolonged period in their home without their knowledge, prior to the night she was killed. If he was that “comfortable” there, it would be easy enough to navigate the house for the purpose of molesting and murdering Jonbenet on Christmas night.

Indeed, I think the killer was sneaking in and out of the house multiple times in the lead up to the crime. Becoming familiar with the layout. The families movements etc. They were likely getting pleasure of feeling close to JB and her family and were obsessed with her. They planned to kidnap her (and perhaps had even convinced themselves that they would be bringing her back) but then went off piste and assaulted her and ultimately killed her in the basement

 

[moldwarp]

I know a stun gun was suggested for the small marks on JonBenet, I remember watching something years ago that disputed this - the space between the marks varied and wasn't the same as a stun gun. I also heard that the electric toy train track was suggested as the cause of the marks.

Another strange point was the bindings; the binding to JonBenet's neck was really tight, cutting into her skin, the bindings to her wrists were loose and carefully tied on top of her cuffs. Just an odd detail

Yeah James Kolar posits that those marks were made by the toy train track and includes a diagram of the make and model of train set Burke had, which matches the marks on JB's neck.


@Hally34

The intruder was in the house for many hours waiting for the family to go to bed. The family were out from 5:30pm to 9:15pm. They planned to take JB. They had a lot of time to write the ransom note.

There's no evidence of a break in. The broken window in the basement was stated by John to have been done by himself. No footprints outside, no disturbed foliage, no damage to the external casement. How did these putative kidnappers (how many are you thinking?) know what time the family were due home? Or whether all the family had gone? How did they know they would have plenty of time to write this essay of a ransom note? Why did they include in the ransom note details that only the family would know? Why were they so concerned that John should get a good night's sleep? Whydid they specify the size of attache case?

Once they took JB and went to make their escape through the basement. Once in the basement they decided to attack her. Perhaps they couldn’t resist. Perhaps JB was becoming agitated so they subdued her. Perhaps they were suddenly nervous to be spotted outside carrying the child and ‘chickened’ out of leaving holding her.
I categorically don’t think the torch on the kitchen counter was used to hit JB. It’s ludicrous that it would be left on the side. It has no forensic evidence suggesting it was used and was left on the side very confidently. It would be idiotic.

Equally idiotic then in your account for them to leave the ransom essay, having changed their plans.

The narrative for the parents and Burke to have carried out this crime is wild. You have to overlook so many illogical actions.
1. Why didn’t they call for help. They still could have ‘protected’ Burke claiming an accident.

And lose their other child to the prison system / care system? John had already lost his eldest daughter, and now JB. Why would either of them want to give up Burke too?

2. Why do the ransom note AND stage the assault on JB. An intruder changing their plan is far more logical then the parents staging both of these and raising even more suspicion

On whose logic? There have been enough kidnappings in the US for the FBI to be able to profile these types of crimes quite well and that profile does not include hanging around casually in the house, writing lengthy essays on headed notepaper, then changing the entire MO on a whim.

3. Why is the father continually campaigning for new DNA analysis??? I dunno - why do the McCanns keep pretending they believe Maddie is still alive? Have you watched the new Netflix doc?? Not yet, as I stated upthread.

4. The unknown DNA on the new underwear could be contact DNA from the factory yes this is possible, but what about under JB’s fingernails??

A kid from the party.

If the mother hadn’t had JB doing child beauty pagents I do wonder if the family would have been treated very differently. Actually I think they were treated incredibly well, as befits their extreme wealth and white privilege. The Boulder PD allowed them to foul up the crime scene by bringing a bunch of their friends over. They would not have been treated with anywhere near the same amount of latitude had they been Black and working class.[/QUOTE]

 

[Hally34]

I don’t buy Burke did it and then the parents staged the scene to look like an intruder.
If their 9 year old had seemingly killed their child by hitting them over the head you’d call 911 and you might lie and say you don’t know how she got the injury or you might say she’s fallen down the stairs. The police didn’t even spot the head injury when they found her so the parents would have unlikely to know the seriousness of the injury to know it was fatal.

I think it was an intruder who’d taken time to know the families movements. They had learned about John’s bonus. They may well have been known to JonBenet. Or dressed as fucking Santa when they went in her room.

They may well have given JB the pineapple trying to befriend her. Like if they’d woken her and before leaving through the basement window she’d said she was hungry. Or she may have eaten it earlier then thought. I really think she had met the perpetrator before so that the perp was desperate to get close to her. The feeding her a snack and the fact she had a blanket with her. He was trying to act like he cared for her (in a sick twisted way he probably did)

I think they had written the letter before committing the crime. It was not rushed. They had time to sit and think what they were going to say to cause the most confusion. Potentially they had the initial intention of taking her and not killing her immediately but then when they took her down to the basement to exit via the broken window they decided to assault her there and then. They may well have not planned to kill her then either but then it escalated. This makes sense to me as they’d have no way to know the police would fuck up and not check the train room as you’d assume the police will check the whole house immediately. So the letter would have been a very short throw off the scent if they had immediately found the body. Why would the parents write it and then leave her body to be found so easily??

The letter was written to throw police off, cause confusion and a reason for JonBenet being gone to throw police off the scent of it being a sexual predator. They also left it on the stairs potentially to distract the parents whilst they were in the basement making their escape. But the plan changed and they left her dead in the basement. So the letter didn’t allign with the body being left as he didn’t plan to do that.

Can’t believe they haven’t looked for ancestral dna yet for the male dna found in her underwear.

 

[Capri]

Also the video of the brother being interviewed after this when he was younger showed he wasn't upset that she'd died. I think they hid the brother for a while after that with home schooling etc. That would stop him from talking about it, but still odd as most kids do eventually slip up in the end. I think the evidence is there when they could still hear patsy talking on the 911 call to the brother asking what he did. It had to have been him I think. Just covered up.

Absolutely… funny how the father at almost 80 is still trying to clear their name on 60 min etc. he keeps making public appearances but it’s so clear that they are the ones who have all the answers.

 

[grannypants]

If they were staging her kidnapping, why would they leave her body in their house knowing how incriminating that would be? It is a very short drive from their house to the mountains/wilderness of Colorado, in the time it's taking to write that long note and stage the scene one of them could easily have driven out to somewhere remote and buried her not to be found for a long time if ever (which is IMO what the McCanns did!)

How would they get her body out of the house undetected? There would be evidence of their car leaving the scene - road tracks, footprints outside the house, mileage, possibility of a neighbour seeing or hearing them leave. How would they explain to the police that they left at 3am?

Actually I think they were treated incredibly well, as befits their extreme wealth and white privilege. The Boulder PD allowed them to foul up the crime scene by bringing a bunch of their friends over. They would not have been treated with anywhere near the same amount of latitude had they been Black and working class.

This. I still find it shocking how well the Ramseys were treated by the police. They refused to do police interviews until they were absolutely forced to and then were given a copy of their transcript from their original interview so they could ensure their story was the same (!!!!!) and they didn’t allow Burke to be interviewed properly.
The investigators were even told to treat them with ‘kid gloves’. It’s insane what having money can do.

 

[Hally34]

- There was no forensic evidence on the torch and no blood spatter anywhere in the main house, not even a drop, which there would be even if the parents cleaned it up -- so, no.

I didn't mention blood. Head injuries can be and have been fatal even if the skin is not broken.

- If you want to drag someone anywhere you hold them by the wrists and ankles. Never in the history of humans, let alone 9 year olds, has anyone fashioned a garrotte for the purpose of dragging someone anywhere. The ligature mark was clean and precise on her neck, which it would not be if someone dragged her by the neck. Even if he knew how to fashion a garrotte (knots are standard boy scout training but not garrottes) why would he have the presence of mind to suddenly remember to make one, again specifically for the ridiculous purpose of dragging JB down to the basement. Where's the blood trail from this dragging? All forensic evidence of the crime was inside the basement. So, again no to your point.

Strictly speaking I shouldn't have called it a garotte because it wasn't one. But, yes, you're correct in that she could also have been carried into the basement by one of her parents and the painbrush & rope contraption fashioned afterwards for staging.

- For the millionth time, the handwriting didn't match Patsy's. So, no.

Handwriting experts are split on this one, actually.

- They had a party the night before which would explain her wearing the same clothes, so even if this is true it's otherwise explainable.

No, Patsy was big on personal grooming, I don't think she would have gone to bed in all her finery, not least because it wasn't particuarly late when they got home. She was dressed because she was up all night.

None of your points are credible, sorry.

No need to apologise! None of us here are going to solve this case, we're all just gossiping and all of our opnions have equal value

Why stage her body whilst also writing a fake ransom????
Handwriting analysis is extremely inaccurate and very very weak evidence. The intruder wrote the ransom note using Patsy notebook which had samples of Patsy’s handwriting in. They may have even been looking at Patsy’s hand writing and (badly) mimicking it to throw police even further off the scent (before they went off plan and killed JB in the basement rather than taking her from the house). I don’t even think the writing looks like Patsy’s but this is entirely subjective.
And also IF the torch was the ‘weapon’ that Burke hit her with why oh why would they leave it laying on the kitchen counter after for all to see. They were not to know there wasn’t any forensics on it. At the very least it would be tucked away to be got rid of later. Having gone to all the trouble of doing all this staging they decide to leave the weapon out??? It’s not like it would be missed like if a knife was missing from a knife block or a vase that was always in the hallway was suddenly gone for someone to notice. It was a torch. I’d go out on a limb and say it doesn’t stay permanently on the counter top and wouldn’t be missed if it was removed.
The narrative that is to be believed to conclude it was the family is so farfetched and convoluted with so much that doesn’t make any sense that I have to rule it out (as a completely unqualified average joe who’s watched a few too many crime docs )

 

[Beaversabout]

Also the video of the brother being interviewed after this when he was younger showed he wasn't upset that she'd died. I think they hid the brother for a while after that with home schooling etc. That would stop him from talking about it, but still odd as most kids do eventually slip up in the end. I think the evidence is there when they could still hear patsy talking on the 911 call to the brother asking what he did. It had to have been him I think. Just covered up.

 

[PineappleQueen19]

Burke had been smearing his shit all over her food, all over her bedroom walls and in her bed. And had previously struck JonBenét in the face with a golf club.

It’s likely the parents covered up and staged the scene though, so I doubt Burke had anything to do with the garrotte.

 

[peanutbuttercupp11]

Mary Bell aged 10 was able to MANUALLY strangle two quite large, well nourished three year olds. It's not laughable, it's chilling. And eminently physically possible

As large as those 3 year olds may have been, they're still half Jonbenets age, a 7 year age gap between murderer and victim as opposed to 3 years between Burke and Jonbenet. And he didn't just strangle her he did it so hard that cord was fully embedded in her neck. Let's say he was strong enough to do that, his DNA would have been all over that cord from struggling with it. Or did a 9 year old had the foresight to put on gloves to avoid DNA detection


If you have germophobe tendencies (as I do) I suggest you stop reading now....but every single item of underwear or indeed any clothing you and I have ever bought had foreign DNA on it. From the men and women who manufactured and packed the clothes.

I never wear new underwear without washing it first as I'm sure most people do, even so in order for them to get a DNA profile from it it must have been a decent sized sample, more so than just a brush of the hand in a shop or factory. In the Netflix documentary they said they ruled out the factory where the underwear was made as there were no white males working there which is what the sample was from.

A kid from the party.

They DNA tested everyone connected to the Ramseys, if the DNA under her nails was someone they knew's child they would have got a familial match


The ransom note makes no sense for either the Ramseys or an intruder to write, it's just too bizarre and you can cherry pick bits from it to support either theory. I don't think a weird ransom note proves the family guilt nor innocence.

 

[Ensay]

I've never believed the murderer was someone outside the family.

No genuine kidnapper would take the time to write a long, rambling ransom note while inside the house - all the time risking discovery. It seemed to be written to give John a reason to leave the house with a large case (presumably containing the body). After all, why would a kidnapper specify the type of case to bring the money in? They wouldn't care as long as they got it.

 

[Nelly's mum]

It was in her medical autopsy though that her hymen was broken amongst other historical changes to the vagina that is seen in child sexual abuse victims. I don’t want to go into the details but from the autopsy they weren’t new one off injuries but signs of historic abuse

Again, JonBenet had some changes, these are common in girls who have a history of UTIs, her family doctor said there was nothing to indicate a history of CSA.
A broken hymen is not indicative of abuse, some girls do not have a hymen and it can break at any time.

 

[ElChanguito]

I have just listened to Crime Weekly’s series on the case.

My thoughts - trigger warning, some graphic details:

There is no way Burke could have done the crime as a nine year old boy. The garrotte is expertly done, going from her neck to her wrist. Don’t believe it was physically possible for him to carry out the extreme torture she was put through. Previously hit her with a golf club and rumours he “went to the bathroom in her bed”…yikes.

My top suspects would be:

John Ramsey Jr - his semen was on a blanket inside the suitcase found next to JonBenet’s body. She had been violated with a wooden handle, was he “spent” and unable to do it with his own body?

A hitman - it seems like a professional job as such little evidence, had to be done in leather gloves imo? Stun gun used to subdue JonBenet which caused her to wet herself (body covered in urine). Garrotte method suggests someone who did that before/often. Ransom note is specific, could include things they were told about John Ramsey, that they then embellished to fit with his business background, add in movie quotes to taunt him. Left behind their Maglite which they had bashed her over the head with. Were they supposed to kidnap her and it went wrong, they panicked and killed her? Or told to make the hit as nasty as possible for maximum emotional upset?

Someone from John Ramsey’s inner circle/ disgruntled colleague - ransom note is very specific and includes his exact bonus for that year ($118,000). Clearly written by someone with good intelligence (“hence”, “small foreign faction”, the word country is capitalised, all of which is interesting). JonBenet was not violated with a penis, but a wooden handle, possibly a paint brush. That suggests an act of extreme anger/hatred/violence, and not sexual attraction to her. Seems more like an act of hatred towards John Ramsey.

Random “weirdo” from the local area: she had a red heart drawn on her hand and I believe a strange teddy dressed as Santa left in her room? Well known from the beauty pageant scene. Were they trying to kidnap her and got disturbed? They know a heck of a lot about John Ramsey, the note suggests a lot of research into him; they want to taunt him more than anything. It would be unusual for a “weirdo” not to simply take her and get the heck out of there taking her with them alive. Why a ransom note and further, why such a very long ransom note? Not normal weirdo behaviour at all.

Anyway, those are my random thoughts and impressions. Please don’t be mean, none of us are experts and no one knows the truth!

 

[grannypants]

So the Ramseys, who love their children very much, upon thinking their 9 year old son has accidentally killed their daughter, proceed to fashion a garrotte and strangle her so hard the cord is fully embedded in her neck, then decide to sexually assault her with a paintbrush for good measure? What loving parent could do that? Not to mention there were marks on her neck from where she had been clawing at the cord while being strangled so she was conscious while being strangled. Upon seeing their daughter desperately clawing at the cord while being strangled you'd think the Ramseys would realise their daughter was alive and would stop.

So they realise she’s alive and stop and then what? Take her to the hospital? How do they explain her condition? I think they were mad with grief and desperation and didn’t see a way out, and the night just snowballed for them.

The intruder theory makes zero sense to me. An intruder took her from her bed, force fed her a piece of pineapple, hit her on the head then took her down to the basement an hour or two later and killed her? And at some point sat down at the dinner table and hand-wrote a ransom letter for a child that was either already dead or close to dying? What would be the point? And why would they risk spending so much time there - if it was a planned abduction, surely you would write the letter before entering the house, to spend as little time there as possible. The intruder would‘ve been in that house for 1-2 hours at least. You would think a ‘foreign faction’ (as they called themselves in the letter) would have planned it a little better.

I just don’t buy it.

 

[peanutbuttercupp11]

So they realise she’s alive and stop and then what? Take her to the hospital? How do they explain her condition? I think they were mad with grief and desperation and didn’t see a way out, and the night just snowballed for them.

They were so mad with grief at losing their daughter that when she came back to life they just thought ah fuck it let's just kill her anyway? Surely you'd just be so relieved she's alive you'd think about the consequences later. And when Burke supposedly hit her over the head they just assumed she was dead without checking for a pulse or anything before strangling her? Then there's still the foreign male DNA and those taser like marks that can't be explained by this theory. I agree the ransom note is beyond strange but that doesn't mean her family killed her. And intruder could have broken in while they were out at dinner and had a few hours to write the note. The original plan could have been to kidnap but it went wrong in the basement at some point.

I’m just starting 2nd ep on Netflix - my god that woman who came up with the saxophone crap should not be allowed children nevermind anyone else….

YES what kind of sick freak could watch that cute video of a six year old pretending to play saxophone and think that?? I can't believe that wasn't given more attention. And she said she watched 23 hours of Jonbenet videos... if anyone needs to be on a register it's her

 

[moldwarp]

Why would they write the letter knowing JonBenet is in the basement? They had no way of knowing that the police wouldn’t immediately discover her. What was the point of the letter if her body was found straight away?

The letter was written to create the idea of an outside intruder.


For this story to be true, John, Patsy and Burke were all in on it. John would have known Patsy was out of bed. After this many years and not one has changed their story?

Patsy died of cancer, but other than that - yes, correct.

Burke would be a seriously seriously disturbed child having murdered his sister assaulting her sexually, yet has not gone on to be convicted of any other crimes.

In the US, a third of sexual assaults are committed by minors on other minors. Although I don't believe Burke sexuall assaulted JB.


I find the father John particularly believable and compelling in interviews. Patsy character made her harder to believe. She is naturally prickly and not ‘likeable’ and Burke was clearly an odd kid.

I believe Burke shows symptoms of being ASD. This has no bearing on his capacity to commit the crime, just saying, as a woman on the spectrum myself, that I don't think he's 'odd' - just ND. Having said that, none of their perceievd personal characteristics are relevant to whether they did it or not. the evidence all points that way.

But a killer? And these stories of him having done all this stuff to JB previously, are they validated? Where did that info come from?

The attack with the golf club on JB's head - that info came from Burke and separately from a family friend. The poo-smearing came from Patsy.

 

[PineappleQueen19]

I don’t think it would be accurate to say Burke murdered his sister.
If he did strike her hard with the torch, even if intentional, he’s still a child. The head injury was severe though, she needed to go to emergency services. (The strangulation occurred 45 minutes to two hours later I believe.)

IMO the parents panicked because JBR was being sexually abused (not by Burke imo) and that’s what they feared would be revealed as a result of investigating her head injury (eg if the emergency services medics alerted social service).

People are only just starting to realise how prevalent incest is, and that’s really only due to DNA mapping as a result of pregnancies. In other words it’s the tip of the iceberg. There are a lot of fucked up families out there. And the ones forcing little girls to perform as living dolls are a huge red flag.

DNA Tests Are Uncovering the True Prevalence of Incest - The Atlantic

archived 19 Nov 2024 00:18:15 UTC

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