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peanutbuttercupp11

Chatty Member
So the Ramseys, who love their children very much, upon thinking their 9 year old son has accidentally killed their daughter, proceed to fashion a garrotte and strangle her so hard the cord is fully embedded in her neck, then decide to sexually assault her with a paintbrush for good measure? What loving parent could do that? Not to mention there were marks on her neck from where she had been clawing at the cord while being strangled so she was conscious while being strangled. Upon seeing their daughter desperately clawing at the cord while being strangled you'd think the Ramseys would realise their daughter was alive and would stop.

Then there's the male DNA in her underwear and under her nails that doesn't match the family, and the marks on her that look like stun gun marks.

The Burke did it theory just makes absolutely no sense.

I’ve watched and read a lot about this case over the years and this is my opinion of what happened:

The family got home from the Christmas party and Jonbenet was asleep - John carried her from the car and put her to bed (this matches John’s story)
At some point in the evening, Jonbenet awoke and went downstairs to find Patsy and Burke having a snack of pineapple and milk in the kitchen. Jonbenet stole a piece of pineapple from Burke’s bowl (Jonbenet had undigested pineapple in her stomach but only Burke‘s fingerprints were on the bowl and spoon)
In a moment of anger, Burke picks up a heavy flashlight (there was a heavy flashlight found in the kitchen that was devoid of fingerprints including on the BATTERIES - as if it had been wiped clean) and hits Jonbenet on the head, cracking her skull. Patsy and John, thinking shes dead, stage the crime scene (Patsy’s sweater fibres were found on the tape over Jonbenet’s mouth, the handwriting of the letter was a very close match to her writing, John had served in the navy and was very capable of making the knots found in the garrotte).
The head injury didn’t kill her - forensics found that the strangulation was performed 45 mins - 2 hours after the original head wound and this was the actual cause of death.

I think the Ramseys loved their children very much and a mixture of fear of losing Burke, fear of their damaged reputation/what people would think of them and pure panic/grief of losing a child led them to do everything they could to cover up the crime.

Unfortunately I don’t think the case will ever be solved though. The police royally fucked up the crime scene and too much time has passed now.
 
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Restless Native

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I’d find it hard to believe a 9yr old could construct a garrotte of that quality, the Saxophone being used as a pleasure source also, it almost seems unreal looking back at the accusations that were being thrown out .
The saxophone thing was absolutely ridiculous
 
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grannypants

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I’ve watched and read a lot about this case over the years and this is my opinion of what happened:

The family got home from the Christmas party and Jonbenet was asleep - John carried her from the car and put her to bed (this matches John’s story)
At some point in the evening, Jonbenet awoke and went downstairs to find Patsy and Burke having a snack of pineapple and milk in the kitchen. Jonbenet stole a piece of pineapple from Burke’s bowl (Jonbenet had undigested pineapple in her stomach but only Burke‘s fingerprints were on the bowl and spoon)
In a moment of anger, Burke picks up a heavy flashlight (there was a heavy flashlight found in the kitchen that was devoid of fingerprints including on the BATTERIES - as if it had been wiped clean) and hits Jonbenet on the head, cracking her skull. Patsy and John, thinking shes dead, stage the crime scene (Patsy’s sweater fibres were found on the tape over Jonbenet’s mouth, the handwriting of the letter was a very close match to her writing, John had served in the navy and was very capable of making the knots found in the garrotte).
The head injury didn’t kill her - forensics found that the strangulation was performed 45 mins - 2 hours after the original head wound and this was the actual cause of death.

I think the Ramseys loved their children very much and a mixture of fear of losing Burke, fear of their damaged reputation/what people would think of them and pure panic/grief of losing a child led them to do everything they could to cover up the crime.

Unfortunately I don’t think the case will ever be solved though. The police royally fucked up the crime scene and too much time has passed now.
 
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ayeayecaptain

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I’m just starting 2nd ep on Netflix - my god that woman who came up with the saxophone crap should not be allowed children nevermind anyone else….
 
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Hally34

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I cannot believe the parents discovering their 9 year old had smashed his sister over the head with a torch would then write that garbled random note and put her in the basement and stage an assault, tie her up etc. It makes no sense! The letter and the tying her up don’t align. If they were staging a kidnapping then they’d hide the body. If they were staging an intruder coming in and tying her up etc they wouldn’t have written the ransom letter. The body was not hidden, they’d have no idea the police would go on to miss searching the train room.
And why is her father continually campaigning to get items retested and items that weren’t tested, tested for DNA after the police bungled it all originally if he was involved and had done all this to protect his son?? He could still claim innocents whilst not pushing for new testing but no he’s petitioning for new tests to find his daughters killer. If Burke did it. His mother would needed to have been involved and Patsy couldn’t have been involved without John noticing she was up.
An intruder was in the house ahead of the crime, potentially had visited several times becoming familiar with the home. The window in the basement was broken for along time ahead of the crime allowing a way in.
They wrote the letter before the crime as they meant to take JB and leave but then changed their mind once in the basement with her.
The ransom note is random and strange. Written by a disturbed individual try to shield their sexually motivated crime as a kidnap for money. If the parents had staged a kidnapping and written a note in a panic it wouldn’t have been written so oddly. They would have kept it simple and more ‘classic’ ransom note.
 
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GiftedNotFree

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It’s so obvious that whoever murdered her was a sexually motivated pedophile. My best guess would be someone that had an issue with John, from a business perspective. And the fact JBR was “known” due to the beauty pageant circuit, she’d be more likely to be targeted by creeps. I also wonder if whoever did it was already in the home prior to them arriving back on Christmas night. That house was so large, it would be easy to hide in and go unnoticed.
 
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cuttle90

Well-known member
I had preconceived ideas about this case... I've recently listened to a podcast (redhanded) about it and then watched the 3 part netflix documentary.

The police made a clusterfuck out of the investigation, the crime scene etc. I don't believe John Ramsey would keep going with the documentaries etc. And pushing for DNA if he knew Burke did it... but could be a double bluff.

I find it odd that there was no reflection by the parents that it could have been the action of putting JB out in the world of pageantry that attracted some weirdo to her.

However, Burkes actions/ behaviours in this early police interviews comes across as strange as a reaction to hearing his 6yo sister was murdered.

I don't believe we will ever know the truth
 
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Libbylulu

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I originally thought Burke Ramsey had killed her accidentally in a fit of sibling jealousy and they the parents covered it up. Having watched the recent documentary I believe it was a paedophile that followed the pageants. Broke into the house during the afternoon and stayed in the basement until they were asleep. She was a very pretty little girl who was made up to look like a little woman - a pweirdo’s dream.
 
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peanutbuttercupp11

Chatty Member
I'm honestly baffled how anyone can believe the Burke killed her theory. I thought it was stupid when I first watched that ridiculous documentary that accused him and I think it's even more ridiculous now
 
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Gojo

Member
Been reading through this thread in the wake of watching the Netflix doc, but have been familiar with this case for a long time. I really hope that there can be a new investigation and better testing carried out with today’s technology. The genealogy database could prove to be a godsend as in other historical cases IF the DNA is credible and not contaminated by the crime scene being completely unsecured for hours after the murder.

I think the media have so much to answer for with the spread of misinformation from the onset and whatever your final opinion of the family their treatment was appalling. Even if they were/are guilty the media circus jeopardised the case along with sheer police incompetence at times.

I remain hopeful that a fresh look at this case actually see it solved once and for all and some kind of justice can prevail.
 
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lilyannrose

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Whenever I see pictures/video of her all dressed up, it makes me so angry. Why would anyone do that to a little girl, let alone their own mum? I hate those pagents, they disgust me.

Worst thing I saw was a girl dressed in the Pretty Woman hooker outfit.. and the judges loved it. I would be investigating those people!

The pagent industry must be a really sick world. Glad it's never taken off much here as far as I know?
 
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hehehe

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Me, I think Burke did it. He had form for attacking JB. My theory:

- he killed her by bashing her on head with Maglight tourch
- He then made the garotte (the knot used was one he had learned the previous month at Boy Scouts) - not to strangle her but to drag her into the basement (hence the inclusion of the paintbrush handle in the garotte)
- Patsy discovered it and John dictated the note to her - she adding a few flourishes of her own (it uses very maternal language in places)
- They were up all night which is why Patsy had on the same clothes she'd been wearing the night before

Happy to expand on any of these points. It's an interesting one where, unlike with the McCanns, I don't think we'll ever formally find out the truth.
- There was no forensic evidence on the torch and no blood spatter anywhere in the main house, not even a drop, which there would be even if the parents cleaned it up -- so, no.

- If you want to drag someone anywhere you hold them by the wrists and ankles. Never in the history of humans, let alone 9 year olds, has anyone fashioned a garrotte for the purpose of dragging someone anywhere. The ligature mark was clean and precise on her neck, which it would not be if someone dragged her by the neck. Even if he knew how to fashion a garrotte (knots are standard boy scout training but not garrottes) why would he have the presence of mind to suddenly remember to make one, again specifically for the ridiculous purpose of dragging JB down to the basement. Where's the blood trail from this dragging? All forensic evidence of the crime was inside the basement. So, again no to your point.

- For the millionth time, the handwriting didn't match Patsy's. So, no.

- They had a party the night before which would explain her wearing the same clothes, so even if this is true it's otherwise explainable.

None of your points are credible, sorry.
 
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Nelly's mum

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Did they have life insurance on her? What would they gain from her death?
I just never felt that the parents killed JonBenet - they seem to love and treasure her and they'd invested so much time and care in raising her. They didn't appear to be desperate for money but I don't know about life insurance.

Maybe Burke killed her and the parents worked together to draft the 'ransom' note to protect him, they were at risk of losing both of their children.

So sad, poor JonBenet.
 
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moldwarp

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- There was no forensic evidence on the torch and no blood spatter anywhere in the main house, not even a drop, which there would be even if the parents cleaned it up -- so, no.

- If you want to drag someone anywhere you hold them by the wrists and ankles. Never in the history of humans, let alone 9 year olds, has anyone fashioned a garrotte for the purpose of dragging someone anywhere. The ligature mark was clean and precise on her neck, which it would not be if someone dragged her by the neck. Even if he knew how to fashion a garrotte (knots are standard boy scout training but not garrottes) why would he have the presence of mind to suddenly remember to make one, again specifically for the ridiculous purpose of dragging JB down to the basement. Where's the blood trail from this dragging? All forensic evidence of the crime was inside the basement. So, again no to your point.

- For the millionth time, the handwriting didn't match Patsy's. So, no.

- They had a party the night before which would explain her wearing the same clothes, so even if this is true it's otherwise explainable.

None of your points are credible, sorry.
- There was no forensic evidence on the torch and no blood spatter anywhere in the main house, not even a drop, which there would be even if the parents cleaned it up -- so, no.

I didn't mention blood. Head injuries can be and have been fatal even if the skin is not broken.

- If you want to drag someone anywhere you hold them by the wrists and ankles. Never in the history of humans, let alone 9 year olds, has anyone fashioned a garrotte for the purpose of dragging someone anywhere. The ligature mark was clean and precise on her neck, which it would not be if someone dragged her by the neck. Even if he knew how to fashion a garrotte (knots are standard boy scout training but not garrottes) why would he have the presence of mind to suddenly remember to make one, again specifically for the ridiculous purpose of dragging JB down to the basement. Where's the blood trail from this dragging? All forensic evidence of the crime was inside the basement. So, again no to your point.

Strictly speaking I shouldn't have called it a garotte because it wasn't one. But, yes, you're correct in that she could also have been carried into the basement by one of her parents and the painbrush & rope contraption fashioned afterwards for staging.

- For the millionth time, the handwriting didn't match Patsy's. So, no.

Handwriting experts are split on this one, actually.

- They had a party the night before which would explain her wearing the same clothes, so even if this is true it's otherwise explainable.

No, Patsy was big on personal grooming, I don't think she would have gone to bed in all her finery, not least because it wasn't particuarly late when they got home. She was dressed because she was up all night.

None of your points are credible, sorry.

No need to apologise! None of us here are going to solve this case, we're all just gossiping and all of our opnions have equal value :)
 
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Hally34

VIP Member
Why stage her body whilst also writing a fake ransom????

To make it look like an intruder considered kidnapping but then killed her. But you could apply the same logic to a putative intruder. Why write a lengthy note only to kill the target?

Handwriting analysis is extremely inaccurate and very very weak evidence.

Agreed.

And also IF the torch was the ‘weapon’ that Burke hit her with why oh why would they leave it laying on the kitchen counter after for all to see. They were not to know there wasn’t any forensics on it. At the very least it would be tucked away to be got rid of later. Having gone to all the trouble of doing all this staging they decide to leave the weapon out??? It’s not like it would be missed like if a knife was missing from a knife block or a vase that was always in the hallway was suddenly gone for someone to notice. It was a torch. I’d go out on a limb and say it doesn’t stay permanently on the counter top and wouldn’t be missed if it was removed.

You're positing the idea of an intruder who was so incompetent that they spent about 30 minutes writing a ransom note only to kill the target (as opposed to bringing a note with them). Why baulk at the idea that this imaginary intruder might also fuck up with the murder weapon? Also, in your scenario, how do you know there wasn't another murder weapon?

The narrative that is to be believed to conclude it was the family is so farfetched and convoluted with so much that doesn’t make any sense that I have to rule it out (as a completely unqualified average joe who’s watched a few too many crime docs 😂)

LOL, I'm just an average Joe too! I think the intruder theory is far more convoluted and unlikely than the statistical Occam's Razor - which is that a family member did it.
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If they were staging her kidnapping, why would they leave her body in their house knowing how incriminating that would be? It is a very short drive from their house to the mountains/wilderness of Colorado, in the time it's taking to write that long note and stage the scene one of them could easily have driven out to somewhere remote and buried her not to be found for a long time if ever (which is IMO what the McCanns did!)

All these questions could equally be asked of a putative intruder. And you're right that a real, halfway competent kidnapper would not risk spending 30 minutes in the target's house writing a note. They'd write it beforehand. And bring it with them. Mind you, genuine ransom notes are always very, very short. Not the rambling essay Patsy produced.

I also don't see why they would put the exact amount of John's bonus in the letter, knowing again how suspicious this would look towards the family.

How would the 'foreign faction' know about the bonus amount? Actually come to that, why would the kidnappers call themselves a 'foreign faction'? They wouldn't be foreign to themselves. ISIS / IRA / Boko Haram don't describe themselves as 'foreign' do they? A faction can only be foreign to someone who isn't part of the faction. Patsy screwed up there.

I think the idea that a NINE year old kid could fashion that garrotte and have the strength to strangle his sister so hard the cord gets fully embedded in her neck, then bring her all the way down to the basement pretty laughable.

Mary Bell aged 10 was able to MANUALLY strangle two quite large, well nourished three year olds. It's not laughable, it's chilling. And eminently physically possible.

Everyone who's convinced Burke did it seems to be conveniently forgetting the foreign male DNA at the scene which rules out the family!

If you have germophobe tendencies (as I do) I suggest you stop reading now....but every single item of underwear or indeed any clothing you and I have ever bought had foreign DNA on it. From the men and women who manufactured and packed the clothes.
I find the family did it theory far far far more convoluted.

The intruder was in the house for many hours waiting for the family to go to bed. The family were out from 5:30pm to 9:15pm. They planned to take JB. They had a lot of time to write the ransom note.
Once they took JB and went to make their escape through the basement. Once in the basement they decided to attack her. Perhaps they couldn’t resist. Perhaps JB was becoming agitated so they subdued her. Perhaps they were suddenly nervous to be spotted outside carrying the child and ‘chickened’ out of leaving holding her.
I categorically don’t think the torch on the kitchen counter was used to hit JB. It’s ludicrous that it would be left on the side. It has no forensic evidence suggesting it was used and was left on the side very confidently. It would be idiotic.
The narrative for the parents and Burke to have carried out this crime is wild. You have to overlook so many illogical actions.
1. Why didn’t they call for help. They still could have ‘protected’ Burke claiming an accident.
2. Why do the ransom note AND stage the assault on JB. An intruder changing their plan is far more logical then the parents staging both of these and raising even more suspicion
3. Why is the father continually campaigning for new DNA analysis??? Have you watched the new Netflix doc??
4. The unknown DNA on the new underwear could be contact DNA from the factory yes this is possible, but what about under JB’s fingernails??

If the mother hadn’t had JB doing child beauty pagents I do wonder if the family would have been treated very differently. I think it was awful dressing her up like that and leaving her exposed to those of ill intent but I think they were being naive.
 
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It did also seem very weird how the police appeared to entirely dismiss the girl who also went to JB’s dance school and had appeared in shows with her being assaulted by someone who broke into her house as being related. Even if they were entirely separate, it’s such a rare crime to happen that you’d think it would be a real line of inquiry for them even if the police believed it was going to be totally different just so they could later say “we followed it up”.

I agree that everything we hear from experts is weighted massively towards one side or another and it’s hard sometimes to work out the truth behind it all.
 
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moldwarp

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I've not seen this latest NF docu. But I've researched a lot on this case and urge anyone who has any interest to read James Kolar's book Foreign Faction. He's ex FBI and blows the intruder theory out the water, with a forensic examination of all the known evidence.

Me, I think Burke did it. He had form for attacking JB. My theory:

- he killed her by bashing her on head with Maglight tourch
- He then made the garotte (the knot used was one he had learned the previous month at Boy Scouts) - not to strangle her but to drag her into the basement (hence the inclusion of the paintbrush handle in the garotte)
- Patsy discovered it and John dictated the note to her - she adding a few flourishes of her own (it uses very maternal language in places)
- They were up all night which is why Patsy had on the same clothes she'd been wearing the night before

Happy to expand on any of these points. It's an interesting one where, unlike with the McCanns, I don't think we'll ever formally find out the truth.
 
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peanutbuttercupp11

Chatty Member
If they were staging her kidnapping, why would they leave her body in their house knowing how incriminating that would be? It is a very short drive from their house to the mountains/wilderness of Colorado, in the time it's taking to write that long note and stage the scene one of them could easily have driven out to somewhere remote and buried her not to be found for a long time if ever (which is IMO what the McCanns did!)

I also don't see why they would put the exact amount of John's bonus in the letter, knowing again how suspicious this would look towards the family.

I think the idea that a NINE year old kid could fashion that garrotte and have the strength to strangle his sister so hard the cord gets fully embedded in her neck, then bring her all the way down to the basement pretty laughable.

Everyone who's convinced Burke did it seems to be conveniently forgetting the foreign male DNA at the scene which rules out the family!
 
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Droosie123

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Burke did it, it will take a lot to convince me he didn’t. Laura Richards and Jim Clemente were right in their documentary. Years of crime analysis behind them at the FBI and NS Yard.
It will never be solved now as it was so badly mismanaged at the beginning.
 
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