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Be More Pacific

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god both of those kids had such sad lives.

someone at the very start of this thread posted an amazing article about that case and how she was really failed by everyone around her. i’ll have to try and find it to link it again.
It was me. I've transcribed it a couple of times on here as it's now paywalled. But it's important that people understand how disgusting her family are and not worthy of the sympathy they seek out at every given opportunity.

It's an article from Ths Times written in November 2013.

Too little cared for and too little mourned

"There goes Charlene Downes, ten years ago today, skipping towards the bright lights of Blackpool. Never to be seen again.

It was late autumn, the final night of the season. During the evening, the 14-year-old was spotted in a bar at the seaside resort’s North Pier. Someone bought her a vodka and Coke. She left with a young friend. They headed for a dark, waste-strewn passageway lined on each side by the rear entrances to several takeaway food premises.

This was “Paki Alley”, where chips and alcohol were in plentiful supply for children smart enough to know that one good turn deserved another. Arcades and kebab shops were a cheap escape from teenage boredom but on that particular night, November 1, 2003, a crime took place which meant that Charlene never came home.

A decade on and the unsolved murder has barely registered with the mainstream public. By contrast, Britain’s far-right parties have taken such an interest in the Downes case that banners demanding “Justice for Charlene” were raised on football terraces by sections of hardcore fans.

Their focus was triggered by a 2007 criminal trial at which it was alleged that the child was killed by a Jordanian kebab-shop owner who later disposed of her body with the help of his Iranian business partner. No remains were discovered.

Lacking concrete proof of murder, the prosecution was built on hearsay evidence from an unreliable witness and on a police officer’s transcription of low-quality recordings from bugs placed in the flat and car of one of the suspects. Its accuracy was repeatedly challenged by the defence.

On the eve of a scheduled 2008 retrial, after the first hearing led to a hung jury, the case collapsed. Both defendants were acquitted. The far-right’s conspiracy theory — dark-skinned men getting away with the rape and murder of a white girl — gained strength in 2011 when it emerged that an unpublished police report identified more than 60 girls who were groomed for sex by Asian workers at a cluster of takeaways.

Today, Charlene’s disappearance will be marked by a memorial service in the town, organised by the British National Party. Tomorrow, its supporters will stage a demonstration against “Muslim grooming gangs”. Leading the tributes will be her parents, Robert and Karen Downes. They are cherished icons of the nationalist movement. But they sit on a hollow throne.

The truth, hidden until now, is that so many men of all creeds and colours were suspected of sexual offences against Charlene that when she first went missing the police did not know which way to turn. One of the trails led directly inside the Downes family home. Confidential witness statements, social services records and internal police reports reveal that the child protection authorities first became concerned about Charlene’s home environment in 1989, the year she was born.

Then, the family were living in the West Midlands. Police and social services launched a joint investigation because a convicted rapist, jailed three times for buggery and indecent assaults on two young girls, was a regular visitor to the house and was allowed unsupervised access to a child.

Mr Downes, now 52, was “strongly advised” by social services not to allow the man inside his home but the visits were suspected to have continued. A witness told the authorities she saw the rapist “fondling [a child] in the house and that the parents were present”. They deny that any such incident happened.

In 1998, when Charlene was 9, she and another girl alleged that they were being sexually abused by a man “trusted by Mr and Mrs Downes to take them to school”. He was charged with rape but the case collapsed when the other girl failed to give evidence.

Charlene’s parents told The Times that the man seemed trustworthy because “he had a girlfriend”. They rejected a police officer’s report that they “had some knowledge of the abuse but failed to act”.

The family moved to Blackpool in 1999 after Walsall social services threatened to prosecute the parents for wilful neglect and to have the children taken into care. In the North West, a succession of men were introduced to the family after meeting Mr Downes in local pubs. Some stayed overnight or even longer.

They included a man in his 50s who described Charlene, then 13, as his girlfriend, and a 40-year-old who later admitted to police that he paid her to carry out a sex act. Three days after Charlene vanished, a 34-year-old man, staying with the Downes family while on bail, was jailed for crimes that included indecent assaults on three young girls. He admitted indecently touching the missing child.

An account of life inside the Downes home came from an environmental health officer, visiting one morning on council business, who walked into a downstairs room to find Charlene, then 12, lying on a bed in a “skimpy” nightgown. Lying alongside her was a man in his 60s. The girl jumped up and “started to scoop a number of pound coins off the bed”. The man, “shaken and trembling”, began “pulling his trouser zip up and fastening his belt”.

In a witness statement, the council employee described his shock at “the situation I had stumbled into”. He said Charlene was quick to tell him that “it’s OK — he’s my uncle”. Mr Downes then entered the room, apparently unconcerned, and explained that the man was “a family friend”. The incident was reported to social services but “it was decided not to pursue the matter further due to lack of evidence, lack of co-operation from the family and no complaint from Charlene”.

Her parents described it as a misunderstanding. Mrs Downes blamed the council worker for being too “nosey”. They said that the man on the bed with Charlene was “a lovely, nice old man” who had merely been adjusting his trousers. Mr Downes said he did not know, at the time, that any of the men he brought home had a sexual interest in children.

The couple did not comment on a hospital doctor’s report from June 2000, when Charlene was 11, warning of suspected sexual abuse, nor on the 13 visits she made to an NHS walk-in centre over a 12-month period in 2002-03, when she regularly sought help for sexual health problems.

Her mother insisted this week that her husband always sought to protect their daughter. She described the documents seen by this newspaper as “widely exaggerated and untrue”.

This is the mother of a child who apparently made regular visits, aged 11, to a Salvation Army soup kitchen and was seen dancing for men outside a pub, aged 12. Her parents explained that she enjoyed going “to church” and often danced to “music that she liked”. It was against this background that Charlene began swapping sexual favours, during the final months of her life, with Asian and Arab takeaway workers.

The Times understands that, three months before she vanished, she was one of two girls driven by Asian men from Blackpool to a lay-by in Blackburn. There, at midnight, she walked down an alley with one of the men, returning an hour later. Back in Blackpool, she was handed an envelope. Her friend asked what was inside and was told it was “what I got for what I did in Blackburn”.

Another Asian man is known to have taken her to Manchester in an old BMW less than a week before she disappeared. Neither incident was connected to the two men who stood trial over her murder.

It can also be revealed that a week before she went missing, a white man with the “motive and opportunity to murder Charlene” gave her £40. He met her again on her final night. A police report described him as a “compulsive, perverted paedophile” living in “a squalid flat knee-deep in pornographic material of all types including those featuring young children”.

Lancashire Constabulary today announces a new investigation, pledging “an open mind” about the murder. Its inquiry will not be short of suspects. Some are white; some are not.

Evidence shows that Charlene Downes was failed throughout her life. Until now, she has also been failed in death. The reports suggest that she was let down by her parents, by care professionals, by dozens of sex abusers, by her killers and by a police force that mismanaged a murder inquiry.

Today, the BNP distorts her story to sow seeds of divisive malevolence. Too little cared for, too little mourned. She deserves better."
 
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Papparazzo1

Well-known member
This has wound me up so much. PTSD is not an excuse for killing two people with their children sound asleep upstairs.

I feel I have a slight handle on this. I was subject to a horrific attack as a 14 year old girl, in my own home, in basically a burglary gone wrong. I lived with, and still do 20 years later, with PTSD. I have never attacked people, and my flashbacks were vicious, and still reoccur to a degree when triggered. When I am triggered, I certainly am not capable or murder, so his excuse, in my opinion, is pathetic.

I know trauma is complex and there are different types, but I cannot buy his and his families disgusting behaviour.
 
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MissTeddy

VIP Member
I don’t really care if it sounds judgemental but if you don‘t know where your 12 year old child is on a cold winters night then your parenting is failing. She should have been safe, and warm at home. With family tracking on mobile phones it’s not hard to know where your children are.
 
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MissTeddy

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I have been waiting for this case to come to court. It’s so disturbing and upsetting.
They obviously desperately wanted to be parents to put themselves through the process of applying for adoption, which by all accounts is very invasive.
Naive and cruel - did they expect a perfectly behaved baby? He probably missed his foster mum who had him from the day of his birth until he was 8months.
poor poor little Leiland will have been absolutely terrified of this strange, new angry lady. Everything will have been strange and different, and when he needed reassurance and comfort-she hit, pinched and smacked him. Heartbreaking. Honestly how can anyone hit a baby? I hope they throw the book at her.
 
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BigBrenda

Chatty Member
My uncle upped and left once. We’ve never seen him to this day. He was meant to be driving the tube that was blown up in the London terror attacks. He was late to work and missed his shift so someone else took over and obviously the sad attack happened and he’s never been seen again. Left a wife and 2 children behind. We did eventually track him down to India and he was remarried and getting on with life. But yeah was awful at the time he just couldn’t cope with life after that. His kids must of been 7 &9 I’m not sure now.
 
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maytoseptember

VIP Member

I’ve just been reading this story. Absolutely sickening. Sounds like it was some sort of foster-to-adoption pathway? But they couldn’t cope and things were falling apart within weeks of the baby being placed with them. She admitted to assaulting the child over and over to her husband. The husband blamed the baby “He’s really ruined it”.

They admitted things weren’t going well and SS said they couldn’t proceed with adoption until “further therapeutic work” was taken. What would it have taken to remove that baby and place him with another foster family? Or was that frowned upon because it would be too disruptive for him, and damage whatever caregiver attachments he may have formed? Poor baby really had no chance of a happy life from the moment he was removed from his birth parents.
 
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Silverback

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The statement by Logan's dad made me cry, as did reading about how Logan's stammer had gotten worse because he was so scared. I am glad he isn't suffering or in pain anymore the poor baby. Why does there always seem to be a step parent involved? Ide be so interested for an in depth psychological analysis as to how a parent can go from not abusive to abusive once they get a new partner. At one point his mum cared about him enough to buy him his little dinosaur and spiderman pjs (something my own little boy loves) and then she stands by while this happens? I can't comprehend.
My mum bought me fashionable clothes and gave me nice birthdays. She still watched motionless while her piece of shit partner attacked me while I felt like I would die.

People give what they want to give to people and don’t give a shit when they don’t want to. It’s baffling.
 
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LaBlonde

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Fauxphiehinchcliffe

Chatty Member
I am a social worker - not in childrens services but this is everyone’s fear. Nobody starts out as a social worker wanting to let a child fall through the gaps.

the social worker involved in the lily-mai case had a case load of 41. Each of those families could have had more than 1 child. That’s unmanageable and unsafe - less than an hour a week per case.

You can see how it happened - stretched social worker, visiting the family in between other visits and mindful of the case notes she must enter and so on….she’s visited this family and they’ve agreed to the placement tomorrow and the father promised not to leave baby unsupervised with the mum. She shouldn’t have accepted that given there were concerns about both parents but we don’t know all of the information and how she balanced those risks. Not an excuse but if the placement wasn’t available till the next day..what else was available as an interim? Such a shortage of foster carers etc… did this influence her risk assessment and lead to her trusting the father to keep the baby safe?

The issue here is that parents killed their child, and there aren’t sufficient resources to support social workers to do their job thoroughly and safely.

why wasn’t the placement available that day? Why are social workers still having case loads double the maximum they should have, yet are being named and maimed and scapegoated by the media when something inevitably goes wrong.

“Theresa Ferguson told the court that she was "convinced" the baby's father, Darren Hurrell, would safeguard his daughter, and that he'd already agreed he would be willing to go into a “father and baby” placement.

During that final visit, he is said to have told Ms Ferguson: "Lily-Mai is my daughter. If that’s what you’re asking of me, I’ll do it.

"She’s my only child. She is my first child. I’ll do whatever I have to do."”

 
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Jumbojet1251

Chatty Member
Alesha had 117 injuries…he got a smack down leaving his tooth through his lip. Either way, let’s hope he felt a bit of that fear that poor child had. I hope he never has a days peace for what he did to her.
 
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Lulu Goss

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I’ve just been reading this story. Absolutely sickening. Sounds like it was some sort of foster-to-adoption pathway? But they couldn’t cope and things were falling apart within weeks of the baby being placed with them. She admitted to assaulting the child over and over to her husband. The husband blamed the baby “He’s really ruined it”.

They admitted things weren’t going well and SS said they couldn’t proceed with adoption until “further therapeutic work” was taken. What would it have taken to remove that baby and place him with another foster family? Or was that frowned upon because it would be too disruptive for him, and damage whatever caregiver attachments he may have formed? Poor baby really had no chance of a happy life from the moment he was removed from his birth parents.
I just read this story on the mail too, it’s so upsetting. Those texts are awful, her saying she’s just “leathered” him - he was so tiny, how could anyone do that to a baby 😭
 
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Mascaragirl

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Absolutely disgusted at what’s come out about Bobbies killer. The fact he laughed about how she was still breathing..I am beyond disgusted. I can’t read anymore about it, I’m beyond terrified to be a young woman. Rest in Peace Bobbie ❤
 
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MissTeddy

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I thought they did know. It said she'd gone to a Christmas lights switch on with friends. Sounds like an organised outing and that maybe she wasn't usually out so late. It's really sad whatever the circumstances though.
ah ok I thought they were just loitering in town. Rant retracted !

I still think 9pm is too late for a 12 year old to be out without adults in a city centre .
 
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LaBlonde

VIP Member

I’ve just been reading this story. Absolutely sickening. Sounds like it was some sort of foster-to-adoption pathway? But they couldn’t cope and things were falling apart within weeks of the baby being placed with them. She admitted to assaulting the child over and over to her husband. The husband blamed the baby “He’s really ruined it”.

They admitted things weren’t going well and SS said they couldn’t proceed with adoption until “further therapeutic work” was taken. What would it have taken to remove that baby and place him with another foster family? Or was that frowned upon because it would be too disruptive for him, and damage whatever caregiver attachments he may have formed? Poor baby really had no chance of a happy life from the moment he was removed from his birth parents.
those text messages are absolutely repulsive, “he’s ruined it” - he’s a BABY? what did they think looking after an infant was going to be like? she sounds amazed that it was hard work. poor poor little boy: he deserved to be lived and cherished (i know it’s not the point, but what an absolutely beautiful baby he was).

i don’t understand the SS approach either, they were obviously struggling and yet he was kept with them?
 
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Silverback

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Sick to death of these sorry excuse for mothers blaming it on the partners AFTER the fact. No! You are their mother! You would take a beating every day of your life to protect your baby/babies. I’ve had enough!
Yep. I confronted my own ‘mother’ several years back about the abuse I suffered and she immediately turned herself into the victim, saying she was scared of my stepdad too and those years were awful for her.
Our relationship died after that. I couldn’t forgive her for trying to make herself the victim when the truth was that she was complicit in all of it and standing there shouting at me and backing him up constantly.
Some cunts aren’t ever meant to be mothers. These cases break my heart every time.
 
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Sketchy

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I watched a really disturbing programme the other night (can't remember what channel) about a 15 year-old Glaswegian schoolboy (Kriss Donald) in 2004 - who was kidnapped at random in broad daylight by a gang of 5 Pakistani men from the same area, who drove him around for hours before torturing, stabbing, and then setting him on fire. According to the narrator, they deliberately went out hunting for a white person to kill as revenge for some argument they'd had the previous night in some pub or club or something in Glasgow

Most of the gang went on the run to Pakistan but all were eventually captured thanks to the tenacity of the police and also with the help and co-operation of the Pakistani government, and were sentenced to 17 years (one or two may have had lesser sentences).

Kriss's mum made a short, but dignified statement after the sentencing. My heart broke for that woman.

But 17 years for burning a schoolboy to death? Monsters like that should never be released! Never EVER.
 
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TrollLolLol

Chatty Member
Poor poor girl, this has made me feel sick. She must of been absolutely terrified 😢 what makes it worse in a way is how bloody normal he looks for a want of a better word? He’s a young, good looking lad who was leading this sick double life & obsessing over murdering someone.
 
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BigBrenda

Chatty Member
There’s not been an update on the family who’s four kids died in the fire on my road. But I tell you what it’s so bizarre the dad to the children I’ve got him and his gf on Facebook and he’s just got engaged to his gf and planning a wedding. I always thought he was a good dad and involved but that’s not what people are saying now. And I don’t mean to speak bad of them but if I had lost 4 kids that way the last thing I’d be doing is planning more kids and getting married so soon.
They don’t put up photos of the littles ones anymore in a morbid way it’s like they’ve moved on and are concentrating on the new 2 he had when he wasn’t with the mum anymore.
The mums in hiding somewhere and hasn’t returned to the area, and it’s all hush hush no one speaks about it and no more has been heard since she was nicked. Really weird. Just hope they pull that house down soon I’m fed up of walking past it every day with my kids they don’t understand what happened, thank god.
But it’s awful to look at. It was a white painted front and it’s boarded up but you can see the smoke damage and burnt window frames.
All the gifts outside are now mildew ridden and sodden and it’s sort of become like an unspoken about night.
 
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LaBlonde

VIP Member
I don’t get this parking dispute? On the news it said that Jennifer had just got her driving license so was she taking up the next door neighbours parking bay? It’s bloody ridiculous to kill two people and orphan two children over such a dispute.
I read earlier that his family were vocal in their support of him during the first part of the trial.

Saw this on Facebook - his parents are minimising what he has done and the sheer terror he inflicted on Jennifer and Stephen in their final minutes.
View attachment 1351415
i cannot imagine even sitting down and typing that - and comparing their “grief” to what stephen and jennifer’s families are going through. i don’t doubt that his children are upset but they can still see their father. as parents they can still see their son. his wife can still see her husband. as long as he has people who enable him like this he will never have to face up to what he did.
 
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