Preston Davey Trial

Lyla001 said:

What a disgusting comment. Are you for fuckin real?. Get your head out of your arse! The only person / people that are responsible for this boys death ARE NOT the 'fag hags' as you put it . Vile comment

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Way to completely misconstrue what I said, well done

nothinonyou said:

Way to completely misconstrue what I said, well done

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Fwiw I didn't read your comment that way. The wording was sloppy in part but I agree mostly with the sentiment. I think the first part about being held in high regard is true, and the SW IS a prime example of that. I don't blame the hospital staff, they repeatedly raised issues, the SW whitewashed these issues.
I'm not sure if it was anything to do with their being gay men or just the general air of respectability they gave off, but she definitely wasn't seeing the wood for the trees.

Jayneh2020 said:

Did I read somewhere that he was left in bath and toppled over then JV got him out he appeared ok put him on the changing table and he done a poo so he changed his nappy and threw it out window for john to put in bin? Or did I just imagine that?

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the nappy part reminds me of poppi worthington case, she was also abused by her Dad and that was all hinging on a dirty diaper and him having cleaned her up when in reality he had been hurting her.

For those following the live updates. I have been reading MEN and their website is terrible for continually reloading because of all the adverts, I think that’s why tattle doesn’t allow links. I’ve found that loading it on safari then switching to reader mode lets you read it without that happening. I had to navigate the jumpy bit to reload older entries before switching to reader but then I was able to read the whole thing with previous days.

Lyla001 said:

What a disgusting comment. Are you for fuckin real?. Get your head out of your arse! The only person / people that are responsible for this boys death ARE NOT the 'fag hags' as you put it . Vile comment

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I loathe the term "fag hag" but I do think that a lot of women have a tendency to infantilise gay men and let them get away with behaviour that would otherwise be condemned. And I also think that DEI has led to children being placed with inappropriate people because there is a fear of being accused of homophobia etc, and also because it gives them an opportunity to tick a box.

It was a valid comment

nothinonyou said:

Way to completely misconstrue what I said, well done

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I understood what you were saying. For context my younger son is gay but not “gay acting” if that makes sense. He’s said many times that when he was in his late teens and early 20s at college/starting out working, the way his female peers treated him before and after finding out he’s gay varied immensely. After finding out he was gay they’d immediately start talking to him more as they would to female friends, confiding in him more, even assuming he’d be interested in talking about fashion and skincare etc (he’s not the slightest bit interested in fashion and skincare lol, I mean he’s very handsome but he’s just not interested in that stuff).

It’s an interesting cultural phenomenon, in that gay men in our culture ar kind of assumed to be a “different class” of man, sort of semi-female? It’s an oddly homophobic construct, and it’s quite specific to our culture. If you look at the evidence of how homosexual behaviour occurred in Ancient Greece, especially Sparta which is where we have the best evidence, it mostly occurred in a military context and the men involved had wives too, we don’t know for sure how they saw it but they definitely weren’t doing anything feminine, lol. They’d have sex and then go out and massacre thousands of Persians.

So, yes, I find it strange. Straight or gay, a man is still a man. In fact one could argue (taking the war loving Spartans) that being gay and mostly in male only society would make you be more masculine, not less. Because there’s no women around with their more calming and practical approach to life.

I do think a lot of people in modern western culture fall into this idea that gay men are less prone to violence because they’re gay and that somehow reduces the natural evolutionary effects of testosterone. I don’t think that’s true at all. Men are men and testosterone is one hell of a drug. It’s such a weird, false, homophobic and misandrist way of looking at things lol

ETA @TheMiceInTheShed said it better !!

TheMiceInTheShed said:

I loathe the term "fag hag" but I do think that a lot of women have a tendency to infantilise gay men and let them get away with behaviour that would otherwise be condemned. And I also think that DEI has led to children being placed with inappropriate people because there is a fear of being accused of homophobia etc, and also because it gives them an opportunity to tick a box.

It was a valid comment

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Any evidence to back that up?
The suggestion that people wouldn't do their job properly and wouldn't follow up on/report/raise concerns re a homosexual couple because of a fear of being accused of homophobia, is frankly, ridiculous.
Even more ridiculous is that a child would willy nilly be placed with a gay couple- just to tick a box.....Christ almighty. There's a process. It's followed for all people hoping to adopt.

Evidence such as that video can be released during a trial as long as the jury have already seen it but there is a legal process, I saw it during the trial of Lucy Letby when I attended in person.

The media can request specific evidence that they’ve seen presented. The judge asks both legal teams and the defence have an opportunity to argue against it but ultimately the judge makes the final decision. And I think during a high profile case there will be more requests.

I’m sure we saw some videos during the trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon too.

I think arrest videos are usually only post conviction as I’m not sure these are often used as evidence during the trials. Letby’s arrest video definitely wasn’t shown to the jury, for example.

nothinonyou said:

Way to completely misconstrue what I said, well done

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You weren't misconstrued at all. Your words made it very clear what you meant.

I'm still cringing at the Heated Rivalry comment tbh 🫠

MaryLou32 said:

Any evidence to back that up?
The suggestion that people wouldn't do their job properly and wouldn't follow up on/report/raise concerns re a homosexual couple because of a fear of being accused of homophobia, is frankly, ridiculous.
Even more ridiculous is that a child would willy nilly be placed with a gay couple- just to tick a box.....Christ almighty. There's a process. It's followed for all people hoping to adopt.

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I remember from your previous comments that you feel very strongly about this. I have highlighted a portion of your comment though that I disagree with. One could replace the word homophobia with e.g. racist, islamophobic, transphobic and there would be examples in each case where this has happened. I think it’s part of modern society, particularly in the UK where people are so frightened of being labelled “-phobic” and causing offence that they do not do their job properly. I’m not even talking about knowing of wrongdoing and deliberately turning a blind eye (though that was suggested re grooming gangs), I was thinking more of “something feels off but I better not pursue it in case I am seen as victimising or being ignorant towards a marginalised/minority/protected group”.

PoppyKJ said:

That pacing looks like panic at being caught out, not sadness at poor little Preston losing his precious life.

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That’s exactly what I thought, he’s not upset- he’s terrified for himself as he knows there’s going to be an investigation now. Vile creature

PoppyKJ said:

That pacing looks like panic at being caught out, not sadness at poor little Preston losing his precious life.

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This is what I think - the pacing, the vomiting, him saying "I'm done", "kill me", "I'm going to hell", doesn't he even say at one point "I f**king killed him", he's been caught and he's absolutely freaking out.
No sadness over poor Preston at all

I agree my wording wasn't great but thanks to everyone that clarified what I was trying to say. I do think if this were a man and a woman and a baby was brought several times to hospital , more would have been done.

Gay men can be mistaken for bubbly, kind, funny, harmless almost immediately and this often very much not always the case

nothinonyou said:

Way to completely misconstrue what I said, well done

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I didn't misconstrued anything. I knew exactly what you meant. And I stand by what I said.

Lynn’ssnazzycardigan said:

I remember from your previous comments that you feel very strongly about this. I have highlighted a portion of your comment though that I disagree with. One could replace the word homophobia with e.g. racist, islamophobic, transphobic and there would be examples in each case where this has happened. I think it’s part of modern society, particularly in the UK where people are so frightened of being labelled “-phobic” and causing offence that they do not do their job properly. I’m not even talking about knowing of wrongdoing and deliberately turning a blind eye (though that was suggested re grooming gangs), I was thinking more of “something feels off but I better not pursue it in case I am seen as victimising or being ignorant towards a marginalised/minority/protected group”.

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Yes I felt quite strongly about the fact that some people were adamant in their belief that gay men shouldn't be able to adopt and that gay men pose more of a risk to children than heterosexual couples. I commented previously about this on the real crime thread.
I agree, you could replace the word with any of those, that's literally why those words exist. People's prejudice, assumptions, fear of, discomfort, hostility towards these groups of people leading to homophobia, transphobia etc. Those groups of people are more likely to experience discrimination, abuse, exclusion, harassment etc
Of course there will be examples where people are reluctant to come forward to report wrongdoing of any description- for fear of being labelled a XXXXphobe, the reality is people generally are scared of reporting and whistleblowing- people's fear of doing so, is mostly rooted in, 'what if I'm wrong' 'what if I've accused an innocent person of something' and also 'I saw that, it's wrong, I should report it, but I don't want to involve myself or be at the centre of this' People can be scared to speak up generally, for fear of rebuttal, losing their job, causing a scene, being bullied or cast aside by colleagues.
The fact remains most people will report wrongdoing that they see within their job, regardless of the sexual orientation, race, sex etc of the person they are accusing.

I can't and will never get behind this 'they probably got away with it for so long because they're gay' rhetoric.
It's honestly ridiculous to think any person would overlook or ignore warning signs against a child just because 'aw but he's a cute little harmless gay man'
The system is broken and not fit for purpose, as is. It's nothing to do with gay or straight, posters who keep trying to bring it back to that, only reveal their own prejudice

IGiveUp22 said:

I think grandma has suspicions of physical abuse (bruises) or just for their general parenting skills - possible the comment came from that or the comment came from a space of “I’d of never left a baby alone in the bath for any reason” type of thinking.
Regarding the damage to his bum (I feel sick even writing this) my opinion was this was done when he was returned back to Varley’s care and during the lead up to this incident.
Not saying this was the first time he did anything like this, but it could be possible that he timed his assaults where grandma wasn’t going to be able to see the aftermath for want of a better word

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Yes, I think Varley's mother had suspicions, she must have been wondering about all the bruises and the broken arm.
At one point in the footage, Varley says that his mother isn't letting him hold Preston.
I think it's interesting that she also vomited in the hospital, when they were informed that Preston had died.
To me that's not a normal reaction to a bereavement, even a sudden one?
I suppose it was the shock but was there an element of "oh God, my son has done this?" and it sickened her?

MaryLou32 said:

Yes I felt quite strongly about the fact that some people were adamant in their belief that gay men shouldn't be able to adopt and that gay men pose more of a risk to children than heterosexual couples.

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Just to clarify (I can only speak for myself but others may agree) that homosexuality isn’t really a factor in this, only in that if males find themselves applying to adopt with no mother figure on the scene, they are invariably a gay couple. I am uneasy about men adopting: gay, straight, single or couples. I believe that men and women are fundamentally different and men (like their male mammal counterparts in the animal kingdom) don’t have the same nurturing instincts and drives as women.

Not only does this make men a suboptimal prospect when it comes to adopting children, it goes some way to explaining why JV and JFM weren’t flagged as potential abusers despite multiple A&E visits (including a broken arm) in a very short space of time. People expected them to be inept because they were men.

maytoseptember said:

Not only does this make men a suboptimal prospect when it comes to adopting children,

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Jesus. I've never read such utter nonsense. I didn't realise we were still stuck in the early to mid 1900's. Silly me.

Do you also subscribe to the belief that women are too emotional for leadership, that motherhood reduces competency, that women are less ambitious 🫠

PaddyDomino said:

To me that's not a normal reaction to a bereavement, even a sudden one?

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I think it is a normal reaction, especially to a totally unexpected death . I remember a friend of my sisters dying in an accident and she vomiter when she found out.

Boogs said:

When they asked who John was he referred to him as baby boys daddy. Baby boy? The fact that he referred to him as that rather than by his name or as his son says a lot I think.

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Hmm I don't think this is a stand alone red flag. I referred to my (adopted) son as the baby or my little one for aaages as it felt quite alien to me - and I have birth kids as well.
He's still awful and I am not validating him on any way!