I don't have any reason to disbelieve what JJK says, although the prosecution seem to have put a different spin on her account so it definitely needs cleared up.
- Status
New to Tattle Life? Click "Order Thread by Most Liked Posts" button below to get an idea of what the site is about:
I’m honestly just hoping it’s a reporting error and they have way more detail in court that we’re not getting. Too confusing.
Yeah can the defense call JJK and get her to clarify this? Because her account of what happened that day paints an entirely different picture…
---
I know, I feel really bad for them. This is so confusingNot a f7cking clue, I'm so confused at this point now. God help the jury
Yeah that's pretty much it. JJK hasn't specified on the stand which way she was facing at the time the alarms went, but LL came in to speak to her and moments later the alarms went, LL then went over to assist which suggests she wasn't already right at the cot, so either way there's no opportunity based on her evidence during the trial.
---
It's on the write up and also the mail podcast and they tend to give better context to the evidence so I'm inclined to believe that it went down in court the way its been reported.
Ok that was my understanding too. It sounds like she came into the room to say hello to JJK, they were both together with another baby, then the monitor went off so LL went over to see.
So yeah, based on that version of events, I am struggling to see where she would’ve had the opportunity to harm that particular baby.
Hopefully this can be cleared up either way
Butting in before having caught up.
Baby K’s murder charge was dropped (ruled not guilty) because he died at AP.
The attempted murder charge still stands. I’m sure the jury does know about this as the judge made the ruling at the start of the trial.
There are good reasons why this charge was dropped, so I can’t see it making any difference to the outcome.
Baby K’s murder charge was dropped (ruled not guilty) because he died at AP.
The attempted murder charge still stands. I’m sure the jury does know about this as the judge made the ruling at the start of the trial.
There are good reasons why this charge was dropped, so I can’t see it making any difference to the outcome.
Omg! She poked that baby’s throat with something while JJK was busy!
Butting in again.
Transportation can be dangerous for unstable patients, so I believe it could be successful argued that baby K’s decline and subsequent death could be due to this.
Handover is often the busiest time on the ward from a nursing point of view. Everyone is trying to complete their care/notes, tidy up etc. Where I worked we even had to empty the bins.
Unless you’ve been lucky enough to be organised, it can be hectic.
Transportation can be dangerous for unstable patients, so I believe it could be successful argued that baby K’s decline and subsequent death could be due to this.
Handover is often the busiest time on the ward from a nursing point of view. Everyone is trying to complete their care/notes, tidy up etc. Where I worked we even had to empty the bins.
Unless you’ve been lucky enough to be organised, it can be hectic.
Ah fair enough, I wasn’t aware of that as I don’t follow the podcast.
I still (imo) don’t think it’s a coincidence that LL was there when this happened after everything we’ve heard with the other babies in the trial, but I can see why it’s caused confusion and doubt so hopefully they clear it up one way or another.
My opinion is she’s busying herself with injuring/destabilising the baby while her trusting friend is preoccupied with another child, etc. whi amongst us hasn’t been busy when a friend steps in and makes themselves at home in our space. My friend has come in and made coffee and brought me a cup, all while saying hello & I’ve been tying up loose ends. Now if my sick infant in adjoining area, on feeding tube, suddenly desaturated & began bleeding with throat swelling afterward, I think I’d need to question if she’d readjusted it - especially if others’ babies had been having incidents around my friend too.
The opening statement says ‘A colleague said Lucy Letby came into the room to say hello, but when the nurse's back was turned, Letby told her Child N had desaturated before assisting with the breathing.’
This strongly implies JJK originally said her back was turned. So couldn’t have seen Lucy the entire time.
In the reporting from when she gave evidence, it’s coming across like her back wasn’t turned, possibly Lucy was with her then ‘went over’ to baby N when the monitor went off.
BBC article said:
Nursery nurse Jennifer Jones-Key, who was working that morning, told the court how Ms Letby, who was just beginning her shift, came onto the unit to "say hello", as the pair were friends.
Ms Jones-Key said: "I think the monitor then went off, so Lucy went over to see. [Child N] went quite pale, I think he'd stopped breathing."
The nurse said she assisted Ms Letby with breathing support until doctors arrived.
And in the podcast it’s worded:
JJK told the court ‘I remember Lucy looking over because he had gone a bit pale and the monitor went off and we started neo-puffing
Unless there is anything anywhere else I’m struggling to see how this completely removes Lucy from having opportunity. The reporting from JJK being on the stand is not very detailed.
I suspect this is down to reporting btw. I just don’t know how it is accepted Lucy was nowhere near the baby and the jury must find her NG, on that charge, based on that. (Happy to be corrected if there is more detailed reporting somewhere!!).
i guess this is what the entire trial is - for this baby, there is reasonable doubt that she had the opportunity to harm them on this occasion.
On the flip side, the injuries the baby had, I haven’t heard a medical plausible explanation for them either. It’s another occasion where a seemingly stable baby, suddenly collapses. With the sounds of it, after 0 immediate involvement with any staff member, never mind LL.
I guess this is what the jury have to decide - do you believe the prosecution in that the witness was busy/preoccupied, turned her back & Letby took advantage.
Or do you believe her account, with Letby & come to the conclusion she didn’t hurt this baby on this occasion.
I think I’d want another explanation for the injuries to make me fully believe the witness so maybe that’s what the defence’s medical expert will do
On the flip side, the injuries the baby had, I haven’t heard a medical plausible explanation for them either. It’s another occasion where a seemingly stable baby, suddenly collapses. With the sounds of it, after 0 immediate involvement with any staff member, never mind LL.
I guess this is what the jury have to decide - do you believe the prosecution in that the witness was busy/preoccupied, turned her back & Letby took advantage.
Or do you believe her account, with Letby & come to the conclusion she didn’t hurt this baby on this occasion.
I think I’d want another explanation for the injuries to make me fully believe the witness so maybe that’s what the defence’s medical expert will do
I think what I’m trying to say with baby N, is that to the jury there might not be any doubt (either way) because I’m pretty sure JJK would have said a lot more than what’s reported and (I believe) will also have her statement, and if there was something that changed from her statement then it would have been questioned like with the nurse who elaborated further re machines being turned off.
What happened to baby N? Do people think the screaming was just in hunger as BM alleges and that’s unrelated to their throat swelling and blood behind the vocal cords? Why did their problem get better and return 12 days later with letby there again? Why didn’t letby record their fresh blood properly and alert a doctor when she’d previously text someone saying she thought the baby (who was in excellent condition only being monitored for haemophilia which turned out to be mild) had a 50% chance of survival? And was aware of the haemophilia and the problems they’d had previously. Why is one entry for more blood signed off in letby’s writing but she’s written someone else’s initials. Surely a nurse that is having such an unfortunate year with deaths and near misses would be incredibly cautious and escalate any bleeding in a baby with haemophilia right away. Is it of no significance at all that 3 other babies have swelling and fresh blood in their throats that shocked people.
I’m sure Letby will remember which way JJK was facing for us and clear it up.Anyway, glad I cleared that one up!
I see what you’re saying, so if JJK originally said that her back was turned, then that’s why the prosecution have said that in the opening statement. What I don’t get is why she isn’t corroborating that on the stand?
I just think if there is a witness telling a different version of events and that she didn’t have her back turned, I’d be inclined to believe her as she was there at the time. Then I’d have to ask the question, ok so when did LL have the opportunity to harm the baby? If she’d only just come on shift, walked in the door and said hello, then the desaturation happens moments later, I don’t see how she could’ve harmed the baby if we go with how JJK describes the scene. I would want to get a reasonable explanation as to how it could’ve happened if her back wasn’t turned and LL wasn’t near the baby before I could say G for that particular charge.
If she wasn’t corroborating it on the stand then i would expect prosecution to ask her why it’s changed. And I would want to hear an explanation to decide if it was reasonable. I just don’t think it’s been reported.
The reason I think it was in her original statement is because with the other nurse that said she was sat with Lucy in her statement, prosecution pointed out they thought she was mistaken and gave a reason why (records). This didn’t happen for JJK in the opening statement. It’s reported that they said SHE said it.
Ok I understand, it’s as we keep saying, it’s such a shame we aren’t able to get the full picture / all of what is being said in court
- Status