Lucy Letby Case #29

[F1Grid]

The MBBRACE data is done based on the hospital the baby's born at, because it's more to do with care in labour and prenatally. So say you've got a baby born at Chester, they're immediately transferred to Alder Hey where they then die. The death is counted under Chester's numbers, even though the baby wasn't actually treated in Chester. Or if say, you get a woman who takes her baby home and the baby dies due to suffocation while co-sleeping, that baby's death is still counted as Chester.

It's not actually measuring deaths in the NICU.

 

[MmmB777]

I am quoting you here but only to reply about this incident with Baby N, the rest of the post is not directed at you!

I was talking purely about the collapse/incident that happened that they focussed on in the podcast.

Morally, ethically and more importantly legally there is no way (from what was said in the podcast which seems to be a LOT more accurate than the live reporting on twitter and Chester live etc) she should be found guilty on that charge. To me (with my legal hat on) it’s just another example of the CPS over reaching and pushing boundaries of charging standards.

If someone has not been in the building, let alone the ward, then comes on duty and goes absolutely nowhere near the baby and then something happens to that baby, how on earth can she be guilty of that? If the jury find her guilty of this charge in particular then it just shows to me even more strongly that juries of peers needs outlawing. A sentiment I share along with many others in the legal profession.

I am still (this many months on) finding it very frustrating that some posters (not you in particular as I do not recall you doing this or even names of those that do, its a generalised comment) who effectively decided guilty from day 1 of the trial are so able to accept so many beyond flimsy pieces of circumstantial evidence as absolute proof of guilt or being “dodgy” “abnormal” “psycho” etc and yet so very, very dismissive when others give an opinion that actions aren’t necessarily important or “abnormal”.

Take the facebook searches as an example, some posters saying they indicate guilt. Then we hear now in the defence case that out of nearly 200 searches I think it was, only 2 were for babies in the indictment. Similar stats for handover sheets. Similar with the whole shredder thing. It was at her parents house and I am sure that much earlier we heard that it wasn’t her shredder but her parents. So presumably her parents put the shredder box in the wardrobe in their home. I am going to presume again that they helped her to pack her stuff to move in with them after the arrests so they could have been the ones to shove the paperwork in that box. No-one knows because we haven’t heard. It’s is likely the whole thing was explained in court but we aren’t getting anywhere near full reporting as that would be impossible.

Similarly when some posters (no idea who as I don’t look at posting names really) are talking about LL being caught in lies and inconsistencies. No-one can know that unless they are the jury/judge/prosecution or defence. The reporting is not word for word. It is also severely lacking. The wiki includes cut and pastes from the reporting.

I can just see the posts that will occur when the prosecution start cross examination. “Oh look they caught her there” etc.

In reality what happens is the prosecution will suggest (just as the police do when questioning) that she has said x, y or z and that contradicts what she said on a, b or c occasion even when she has done no such thing. It is literally what they do to defendants. They draw inferences and point those out irrespective of accuracy. Sometimes a judge will intervene if they can recall the truth, sometimes they won’t or can’t remember.

If you understand how police question suspects and how a prosecution or defence barrister/solicitor questions witnesses and the defendant then you understand that most likely she has not been caught in any lies or inconsistencies.

I said it months ago and I say it again we are not getting anywhere near close to a verbatim record from the reporting.

I just hope none of the jury are reading threads like this one on tattle. There’s bound to be at least one member of the jury not keeping to the rules. You could read the threads here and on Facebook, Reddit, other forums etc and be in the courtroom day in and day out and think you were watching a totally different trial.

Still on the fence here until all evidence has been heard. I use the word evidence lightly as I prefer to take it in its purest legal form. I was actually swayed slightly more towards guilty before LL started her evidence. I am very much hoping that the defence has medical experts to bring and I am going to be very interested in what they say.

I was going to let this one pass on by but just to briefly say, it does feel slightly contradictory and hypocritical to say how awful it is people post about her guilt and how you’d hope juries don’t see these forums (that you’re also contributing on) and then also say there is one charge that has to be NG whilst dropping your legal background to give it weighting. Seems, if anything, even more problematic if I’m honest than little old me just saying I think she did it. Not to say I’m not very happy for you to continue to contribute. Will leave it there because I think I explained why the jury would be able to use their inference about baby N’s initial throat trauma. I would also say, if it interests you, there are many cases of serial killers that work in healthcare and this is exactly the kind of evidence used to get many successful convictions.
P. S. Taking, sorting and keeping 200+ handovers and other medical records is illegal

 

[Tofino]

And so far, I don’t believe the jury are aware of these other deaths. They are to decide her guilt based on the evidence presented for these babies on the indictment. Not speculate about babies outside of that when they know nothing about them.

 

[Cheddar Chalpupa]

I think if there are any mothers on the jury who were ambivalent before she's just blown it by accusing the mother of lying.

 

[F1Grid]

What kind of setting do you work in?
We were talking about it at work a couple of weeks ago and there was a pretty 50/50 split.

For reference, surgical here, everyone thinks she’s guilty.

Definitely think it would depend on speciality.

 

[MmmB777]

Hello! I’ve got pages and pages to catch up on. I’ve been a bit busy today, at the crown court!!

They weren’t going to let me in but I said ‘don’t you know who I am? I’m Tofino. The creator of THE almighty wiki.’ And they let me in!!

haha joking, I was actually pleasantly surprised how un-busy it was. The overspill room was only two thirds full so unless everyone on this thread tries to go on the same day then I don’t think anyone wanting to go will have any issues getting in.

I picked a great day to go as the medical evidence and events surrounding the collapses are the most important for me. I knew they were starting on baby A but because I went expecting not to get in I didn’t think ahead about which babies I would hear about.
So I am so pleased I heard babies A-E and some of F.

I’ll try and catch up on the thread after putting my son to bed. And give you some more of my thoughts if you want to hear any!

 

[Tofino]

@Tofino oh my word we neeeeeeeeed to know the details! Just seen someone on fb say they went today and she came across as very vulnerable and quiet. Need absolutely more detail than this

ETA that is not the gif I chose but oh well! I am ready!

Hmm interesting. She did speak quietly, she was asked to speak up again (I don’t know if this was in the live reporting as not read that yet).

i suppose she did ‘look’ vulnerable but there are so many holes in her evidence and the questions BM is asking, which you’ve all picked up on throughout the day, that she is not coming across credible to me. I’ll go into more detail later on my thoughts but just trying to answer initial questions first. I’m glad there is lots of live reporting as otherwise I would be more nervous about what I can and can’t say!

 

[gmf21]

Just wanted to say that in 25 years of nursing, some of it in areas where you see a lot of suffering, I have never had any training or formal support around vicarious trauma. Or a debrief after a death or traumatic event, if you’re lucky there’s a senior nurse or doctor who will ask you if you’re okay.

 

[DellaC]

I’ve nursed mostly adults with cancer and I’ve had cancer, it’s not the same. I imagined I was reasonably empathetic but when it happened to me I though ‘I really didn’t get it did I’. Nowhere near the same depth and duration of feeling, because let’s face it, it’s not you it’s happening to. At the end of the shift you go home. Although obviously LL couldn’t switch off, very unhealthily.
I do think it’s a bit different if it’s happening to a child, maybe it’s instinctual to want to nurture and protect in that situation.
I’ve had a few traumatic experiences in my life, but PTSD? I’d have to Google it. Not because I might not have had it but, if I did, I didn’t recognise it.
My partner was in the Falklands and saw some horrific things. He’s a big guy and was tasked with carrying the very badly injured up ladders from below deck after a ship was bombed (he’s not a medic) amongst other things. Honestly, it just doesn’t bother him. As far as I can tell, he’s not suppressing anything, it just doesn’t bother him.
I’m making him sound like a psycho . He’s not (hopefully)

Hope you've got rid of the horrible fucker! (The cancer. Not your hubby).
--------------------------------------
We're all built different and our life experiences mould us.

I had a very traumatic childhood and that has implicated in the way I act and my personality.

I think LL was a mollycoddled, spoilt brat who's overbearing parents treated like a child way into adulthood. I think she's been used to getting her own way and as a result is controlling and manipulative. Being an only child didn't help.

As soon as you take away the ability to control and you lock her in a police cell she freaks out (possible SH and ED). She gets diagnosed with PTSD as a result of how she's presenting. I doubt she'd ever open up fully to a health professional amd could easily manipulate a diagnosis.

I might be completely wrong, I may be partially right. That's just my take on her so it makes no odds.

Anyway I'm off to have a lovely day in the rain with a bunch of cretins I can't stand and eat food I shouldn't eat because I look like I'm 4 months gone

All the best darlings. Rule Britannia

 

[Morning_Star]

This. “I don’t recall” but you can remember you made a typo of 1 ml on some sheets???

If I was on the jury this part of her answers would be making my blood boil. The mum isn’t just imagining she’s seen the blood

The mum even heard Baby E's scream when she was in the corridor before she entered the room and saw LL there with him and blood on his mouth. He was such a tiny baby that one of the doctors (or nurses) who testified said that it was very unusual for babies that age/size to cry so loud (that it could be heard in the corridor).

 

[Tofino]

Tofino you are also talking about deaths that happened 7+ years ago. She was searching the parents immediately after the deaths. I would have to say that there is something quite normal about her not being overtly emotional when talking about the deaths of patients that happened so long ago. . I would be curious to know if anyone else giving evidence in the case (other physicians or healthcare staff) became emotional when talking about the deceased babies?

She was searching parents on the anniversaries too, some of whom she had only met briefly. She only stopped searching people just before she got arrested.

Not sure what the other professionals have to do with it, they are not the ones on trial listening day in day out, they are not the ones that witnessed all 22 sudden unexpected collapses. They are not the ones that were there for all seven deaths. They were not there listening to the parents (who were on her mind enough previously to invade their privacy) giving evidence about how they lost their precious babies.

But as it happens, yes a number of professionals have been reported to cry whilst giving their evidence.

 

[Daisydunn15]

@Tofino I feel like this is the same fella who was posting about you last time... if so how does it feel knowing you were sat with such a fan?

 

[Deeznutslol]

I think the plan is to create as much confusion as possible around timings etc in order to try and put doubt in the minds of the jury. It’s a really cheap tactic tbh

 

[slidders]

Did anyone see this in the DM today? Seems Letby isn’t the only one!

 

[Lucyxxxx]

I bet she was a Hincher.

 

[Treesy19]

Here’s hoping Tofino’s kid is asleep with no messing tonight. No pressure though Tofino honest.

 

[DellaC]

She's just liked a post from 13.36


I'm pouring a wine. Fuck it

 

[Upintheair83]

If baby E’s mum is in that room listening to her essentially say that mum didn’t bring breast milk at the time she was supposed to and has literally made up her son being so so distressed and blood around it’s mouth and being told to leave. Honestly that poor poor woman. I would have to be removed I think.

I honestly want to smack this bitch in the face.(and I'm in no way a violent person) but I feel actual rage on behalf of all these mothers. She's a fucking evil Psychopath. I hope the women and the staff at the prison she ends up in, makes her life hell.
She's beyond sick.

 

[Wellthisisinteresting]

This is why I didn’t want to say I was going beforehand because you never know who is lurking and reading these threads! (Not specifically because of James although I know he’s mentioned me before ) I know some people feel very strongly about her innocence and it’s clear what my position is, and I’m not interested in getting into any discussion at the court house about it.

might have to go in disguise next time though incase I see any of the same people more than once

just an outfit idea …

 

[raspberryjuice]

She’s coming across like a compulsive liar. Her texts, her police interview and her answers in court are all completely different.

Can’t wait for prosecution to pick Pinocchio apart!