Lucy Letby Case #29

[avabella]

I realise I'm a random bloke who doesn't participate much so this might be a bit weird, but I've been following the threads from early on and seen all of the erm.... DISAGREEMENTS that have occurred.

So I just want to throw out there - I think it's extremely important to have voices like Ava in here. Because she nitpicks, she asks questions, she asks for clarification on random details. She basically does what a defence attorney does.

I fully understand why that rattles people, but it's important. If someone is accused of murder then it better stand up to scrutiny. You want every question asked, every scenario explored.

Thank you, that was a lovely message to come and read.

 

[Aberscot]

I wonder if Baby E mother is in court today, if I was her I would need held back.
Poor woman been made out to be a liar, it’s not something you would forget

 

[gimmethattea]

Can I just say that I definitely believe the Mom who was bringing her expressed milk for her baby and what she says about the time and the baby over Lucy.

While my son was not breastfed, despite me trying, he was formula fed and when he was in NICU, they were very specific about how many mls he was having and when it was happening.

They calculated the amount of milk he should be having in a 24 hour period and then this was split over a feed every 2 hours. He was weighed every other day during his stay and this then altered the amount slightly.

During his initial bottle attempts, we had to record what he had exactly and then any remaining milk (because he barely had 5mls) was tube fed.

At times, it was adjusted as he was being sick a lot during the first few days due to his infection and at one point, he was nil by mouth for about 12 hours. But they were really specific about this.

The mom of a premature baby born at 33 weeks did breastfeed and she was bringing in lots of milk everyday. Her baby had exactly the same procedure, an amount calculated for his weight and then feeds split over a 24 hour period. But she made sure she was there the same time every day so she could bring all her breast milk so it never ran out.

It may have been different at this hospital, but I do think they'd follow similar guidelines regarding babies milk intake to ensure weight gain was happening and feeding was getting established.


Why would any Mom make up seeing blood, hearing screaming? What do they gain?

Honestly, Lucy is just a liar and a bad one at that.
All I've seen front he defence so far is trying to confuse events of what happened. They aren't even giving credible evidence.

 

[DellaC]

I just find it really interesting from a layman’s point of view how other witness testimonies can either be believed or not, depending on what they allege to. So it’s ok to say this mums account must be incorrect, but not the other mums. For all we know the other mum could have been exhausted, delirious, dehydrated, and totally miscalculated the timings. We just don’t know. It’s interesting.

Who has said they believe 1st Mum? I think she's made an innocent mistake and her timings are a bit off. It was only pointed out by BM to make people question the next mum. And it's worked because you are.

I'm not sure if you've ever had a newborn in hospital (by your statement I think not). You can't wash, dress, cuddle them or anything. The only thing you can do is feed/provide milk. If the nurse says feed at 8pm and wear wellies and your pyjamas back to front then that is EXACTLY what you will do.

If we're going to pick holes/ play devils advocate then let's do so comparing apples with apples.

Also her phone call to her husband collaborated the timings. So if you believe Lucys text timings in the first instance then you absolutely have to believe the Mum in the case of Baby E.

 

[Windowtothewall]

This is so hard. That poor baby must have been in so much pain and as for making out the mum is lying, of course she's not. The sight of her baby with blood on his face, screaming and herself being chucked out by Letby will have scarred her for life, she will never forget that. She knows what she saw and heard, it must be obvious to the jury too that Letby is lying. They will have seen the mums reaction to her lies as well.

So far she's accused Melanie Taylor, Sophie Ellis, and mum of E of lying, incriminating Caroline Oakley for something that wasn't even her job. And it's only been a few hours. Basically every single person on that unit is a liar and all she did was get a 1ml typo wrong....

 

[SundaysChild]

I think the plan is to create as much confusion as possible around timings etc in order to try and put doubt in the minds of the jury. It’s a really cheap tactic tbh

as if that's all they've got to 'play' with.
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Yes, unfortunately.
Surely she must have expected the police to come knocking though? She had 27 interviews over 3 days so must have had breaks.
I think that BM will use that tactic, but it’s an absolute pile of

I wonder what piece of evidence made them think 'right we've got her, go arrest the bitch'?
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View attachment 2150126

He'll have her on this. The phone records match with Child E's Mum's account.

Can you imagine having to draw a diagram of where you found blood on your tiny baby ffs? My heart aches for these poor families

 

[OldBlondie]

Sheez they really did her dirty with this one …

View attachment 2150424

Actual footage of Bowel Movement when LL gets up and starts lying/contradicting herself

ETA obvs this is a joke

 

[Tofino]

Sheez they really did her dirty with this one …

View attachment 2150424

Whilst it doesn’t quite look like her, the actual facial expression was pretty much her face the entire time. The downturned mouth. I was quite shocked when the camera first panned to her before BM even started. She blinks A LOT too, quite quickly.

 

[LittleMy]

Standing by while a baby is having a collapse and doing nothing about it/not alerting anyone would count as an attack to me. Especially from a nurse with her level of experience, who has a duty of care to the babies. I’ll be interested to hear her explanation of that event.

 

[F1Grid]

Right I'm getting hella confused.

- Child C was later baptised and died that morning on June 14.

- Letby confirms, as shown from her work shift pattern displayed to the court, she was not in work that day. She worked night shifts on June 8-9, 9-10, 13-14 and 14-15.


So, she wasn't in work when this poor baby passed away?

She was in from 8pm on the 13th to 8am on the 14th, Baby C had a sudden deterioration after she had been the only person in the her at 11:28pm of the 13th according to the wiki, so during the shift. They continued CPR while the priest arrived in the night, baby was baptised. Mum and Dad then held Baby C who had no brain activity (so no chance of recovering) until his pulse stopped on the morning of the 14th.

Really good evidence of what BM is doing here, he’s making it sound like she wasn’t in by not giving much detail on timelines. You’ve got to cross reference with the agreed facts to find the hole in it.

 

[AllieBee]

The mum even heard Baby E's scream when she was in the corridor before she entered the room and saw LL there with him and blood on his mouth. He was such a tiny baby that one of the doctors (or nurses) who testified said that it was very unusual for babies that age/size to cry so loud (that it could be heard in the corridor).

This is so hard. That poor baby must have been in so much pain and as for making out the mum is lying, of course she's not. The sight of her baby with blood on his face, screaming and herself being chucked out by Letby will have scarred her for life, she will never forget that. She knows what she saw and heard, it must be obvious to the jury too that Letby is lying. They will have seen the mums reaction to her lies as well.

 

[SnowiestWinter]

Just popping on to say thank you. I never really thought to look here for information on this case but found you last night and spent a couple of hours reading the Wiki. What an incredibly well thought through and valuable source of information. I’ll join you from here on in if that’s ok.

 

[MmmB777]

What I see is that in June 2015 we see the start of a 60 day period where 6 children are allegedly attacked. 4 of these babies die unexpectedly. So that’s a years worth of deaths in 60 days, there’s talk of LL being on a bad run and at the very end of this 60 day period a child is found to have synthetic insulin in its system when it definitely shouldn’t be there. So she’s on shift for all these deaths/incidents people are talking and raising concerns, then the insulin results come in, all the suspicions are confirmed and now have weight so how on earth did it get swept under the rug?

But let’s say for argument sake I accept the blind eye being turned at the insulin point. How on earth can it carry on for another 8 months? There are still another 16 incidents that happen after that, how is nobody connecting dots, I just think if people genuinely thought she was sus at any point they’d have to have been talking amongst themselves about keeping there eye on her to some degree, I think a neo natal nurse will most likely enjoy there work and see it as much more than a pay cheque, relatively speaking against other professions anyway so,I’d expect them to care about there work and I’m sure a big rise in deaths wouldn’t be something that anybody would be able to shake off without having some questions. maybe I’m naive but I really find it hard to see how there wasn’t anybody fighting to find out what was happening to these babies, the only logical explanation to me is that they were all very aware of how poor the care was there, probably a lot of poor practice and everybody thought the rise in deaths was due to the poor conditions at the hospital.

I understand that this also gives pretty good cover for her to operate, I just don’t think the evidence is good enough to extinguish the doubt surrounding the sun-optimal care amongst other issue I have

You’re kind of giving the argument that she looked sooo guilty that you believe she’s innocent I do see what you’re saying but people absolutely were raising it. People were also slagging her “capabilities” around the middle of the case. Most people most of the time prob thought she was shit and a bit of a dick. The people that were raising the link between her and the problems were not aware of the insulin. Nobody really was, there isn’t a note saying this babies results show an overdose of synthetic insulin. She hung the bag and left, the people taking the information about the results would not have linked it to her.

Management actually sent everybody an email about the excess deaths when baby I died. The incidents were absolutely being reviewed and investigated because they were not medically explicable and it is the same people that have to be accused of scapegoating that are literally drawing attention to what’s going on.
This kind of thing has happened over and over and over again, hence why some people get away with this stuff for years. It is shocking but it really is totally a feature of these crimes! That people are not allowing themselves to fully accept someone could be doing it, delaying raising it, raising it but being told to shut up, then eventually putting their neck on the line. By baby P they literally put their necks on the line, after baby Q they said they’d only work if she came back with cctv. The podcast episode on this part of the case is very good

 

[Windowtothewall]

Where you are pointing out she's searching for the families, literally gave me the shivers. You are right! I wonder if that's how she chose her victims maybe? Was it a case of an opportunity? Or was it something about the families she didn't like? I'm really intrigued as why she chose those poor little babies that she did, as apposed to other ones.

I was also wondering whether she wanted to know more about the people she had caused trauma too. Kinda like, the happier and more fun the social media showed them, the more satisfaction she got from their grief. Whatever it is, her behaviour is very disturbing.

Because wanting to be nosey about people you've only met because you failed to resuscitate their dead baby is beyond creepy. She had no relation with them or knew them in any capacity until the resus. This would be like if a police officer checked out your social media shortly after they met you (for the first time) at the scene of your child's murder. When all they'd seen of you was crying holding your child's body, and that made them want to snoop on you. It's so intrusive at such a vulnerable moment. Only a real creep would do something like this and justify it as 'normal to me'. I can't imagine how those parents feel hearing her say this.

 

[IGiveUp22]

I still find it really risky on BM’s part to let her suddenly provide answers for things which she couldn’t during her police interviews.

police caution (bold bit Is how it’s broken down to check understanding in interview)
You do not have to say anything.
You don’t have to answer the questions put to you today, you can say no comment but this is your opportunity to tell your side of the story.
But, it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court.
if you answer no comment today, but tell the judge a story in court. A negative inference may be drawn.
same as if you answer today and you change your story in court, a negative inference may be drawn. Do you know what we mean by negative inference? Usual response here is “they won’t believe me/they’ll think I’m lying”
Anything you do say may be given in evidence.
Anything you say today is being recorded and note are being taken and all of this can be used it court should it be taken that far. Do you understand?
Sometimes you would even ask them to say it back to you in layman’s terms to check they definitely understand.

For me, it’s HUGE that she’s now offering answers

 

[Cheddar Chalpupa]

I wholeheartedly agree. I believe Mum too.

All she could do for her baby was feed him. Nothing would've stopped her.

I've been there, nothing stops you taking that tiny syringe of barely any milk up to your baby. Your whole fucking day is built around it when you're just laying in a hospital bed and your brand new child isn't with you.

 

[DellaC]

Anybody else been rushing around trying to do stuff so they’ll have peace to follow along today?

I haven't stopped since 5am, I'm sweaty and stink of bleach so off for a shower before we start

Oh and my 17 year old came home absolutely bladdered last night so I've hoovered outside her room 6 times and ACCIDENTALLY played a tune with a pan lid and wooden spoon whilst singing God Save Our King

 

[DoseofReality]

Letby said she could not recall what Child E was like when the mother visited, but did not accept blood was present on Child E's mouth.
Letby says she first saw blood at 10pm.

If she cannot recall what child E was like at 9pm then how can she say there was no blood but there was at 10pm. You just said you don't recall.

 

[DellaC]

Yeah, also see below. She says she doesn't forget the babies she cared for - but she's searching for the families, not babies and searching for the families before they'll have even had a chance to post about their babies on social media given baby is just born and still in hospital!! So it's not about the babies, it's about the parents. And why would parents she's just met briefly be on her mind to the point she has to search them.

Letby says she would have been aware of Child C's family during resuscitation efforts, and that was the first time she had seen them.

Asked why she had searched for the parents on Facebook, Letby says they were on her mind.

She adds: "When you go home you don't forget about the babies you cared for."

From the Wiki

After finishing her shift, Letby searched on Facebook for Child C's parents.

The prosecution say this would've been one of the first things she would have done after that night shift ended.

My initial thoughts are how did she know their names if she'd never met them until this point? She must've gone out of her way to find that out so that she could facebook them. Would the parents first names be on a whiteboard of some sort or just within files?

We've had quite a lot of medical intervention with my son and in my experience the staff (Drs, Nurses, Physios etc) always refer to me as Mum and my husband Dad, not often will it be Mr and Mrs and never have I been called by my first name.

It's a small point and it might be totally irrelevant but it wasn't as if she had any sort of bond or relationship with the parents. I just think she got their names purposely to revel in their grief.

 

[IGiveUp22]

Wow baby Es mum really just a fantasist then. Bull shit.

This. “I don’t recall” but you can remember you made a typo of 1 ml on some sheets???

If I was on the jury this part of her answers would be making my blood boil. The mum isn’t just imagining she’s seen the blood