Karen Read Case #2 The Retrial

[avabella]

47 pieces of tail light recovered over the space of 4 weeks. 24 of which do not match, many of the pieces recovered during undocumented searches by Michael Proctor that manage to fit together in big chunks.

No bruising, no broken bones, no blood on the tail light or tail light pieces. Puncture holes on the clothing consistent with soemthing going into it and being pulled back out eg a claw or tooth

It’s misleading to say that they ‘don’t match’. They may not physically match each other in a jigsaw puzzle (because we know Karen has said she picked out pieces elsewhere), but it’s not like they’re from a random tail light.

And the time they were recovered is irrelevant. They had the initial pieces recovered by SERT (two officers testified) before anyone else had set foot on the property and Karen’s car wasn’t impounded by then.

 

[avabella]

It's not what she thought though it's what a reasonable person would think. That's where she can get caught out by this. She was drunk. A reasonable person is a non drunk person

Ah ok, got ya. That’s interesting.

I wonder why the ‘he didn’t look mortally wounded’ hasn’t been explored further. I would have liked to have known when she thinks blood gushed out of his face, because it wouldn’t have been when they found him.

 

[NarcRage]

If she drove say 34 feet left of the flagpole, her rear view would then be obscured by the bad weather......plus she's drunk AF (I think she should be charged with DUI at a minimum btw)......Trooper Paul said John was pirouetted and landed 30 feet away from the point of impact. John's body was found at the flagpole....so, where was he stood approximately? I would've guessed on the road outside the house?

I would guess on or close to where his shoe came off is where he was standing.

 

[evoway13]

I also wondered if John threw his glass at the tail light, then Karen gunned it in reverse, John would've seen reversing lights on the Lexus and watched the car approaching him......so, he stood there, waiting for Karen to hit him?

 

[LondonCalling272]

If she drove say 34 feet left of the flagpole, her rear view would then be obscured by the bad weather......plus she's drunk AF (I think she should be charged with DUI at a minimum btw)......Trooper Paul said John was pirouetted and landed 30 feet away from the point of impact. John's body was found at the flagpole....so, where was he stood approximately? I would've guessed on the road outside the house?

Absolutely agree she should be charged with DUI, any of them who admitted to it should be. It’s gross that it seems to be an accepted norm in that town.

Got this from microdots but based on the Commonwealth’s theory the sticking point is how he ended up so far from the alleged point of impact

 

[NarcRage]

I also wondered if John threw his glass at the tail light, then Karen gunned it in reverse, John would've seen reversing lights on the Lexus and watched the car approaching him......so, he stood there, waiting for Karen to hit him?

It probably happened in seconds - and he was also drunk so his reaction times might not be the same as a normal person. Even a normal person might not have reacted in time.

 

[Tatvam]

I don't believe that she intended to hurt him. I think she was going too fast in reverse and couldn't stop/control the car in time.

Interestingly though, second degree murder in Massachusetts doesn't just look at Karen's intention. It has a second limb and introduces what a reasonable person would have known.

See (B) below.



1. The defendant caused the death of the victim

2. The defendant:
A. intended to kill the victim; or
intended to cause grievous bodily harm to the victim; or
B. Intended to do an act which, in the circumstances known to the defendant, a reasonable person would have known created a plain and strong likelihood that death would result.

So the CW have to show a strong likelihood that a reasonable person would have forseen a plain and strong likelihood that he would die (by being incapacitated and left in the cold). Arguably the fact that once she sobered up she panicked and started saying he's dead he's been hit by a plough etc does not help her case. Because even Karen could see the potential consequences at that point...

If the jury finds she caused the death she really could be looking at conviction here for murder.

I'm happy to be proven wrong but there's just no way 12 people are agreeing on a murder conviction in this case. And I say that before the defence have even put on one witness

 

[NarcRage]

Absolutely agree she should be charged with DUI, any of them who admitted to it should be. It’s gross that it seems to be an accepted norm in that town.

Got this from microdots but based on the Commonwealth’s theory the sticking point is how he ended up so far from the alleged point of impact

To be fair rhat diagram doesn't look like he travelled very far though

 

[evoway13]

I would guess on or close to where his shoe came off is where he was standing.

But, that's not 30 feet away from the flagpole.....if we're going on Trooper Paul's account. His shoe must have come off towards the house if he was propelled 30 feet. Wasn't the shoe found a couple of feet from the flagpole at the side of the kerb?

 

[NarcRage]

I'm happy to be proven wrong but there's just no way 12 people are agreeing on a murder conviction in this case. And I say that before the defence have even put on one witness

All I'm saying is it's interesting to look at what is required for a murder conviction. A lay person might say 'oh she hit him. But she didn't mean to kill him' - I mean that's what I think too. But legally in Massachusetts it doesn't matter for a murder conviction whether or not she intended to hurt him!

 

[evoway13]

To be fair rhat diagram doesn't look like he travelled very far though

I agree, if she was going fast in reverse, he would've gone a lot further

 

[NarcRage]

But, that's not 30 feet away from the flagpole.....if we're going on Trooper Paul's account. His shoe must have come off towards the house if he was propelled 30 feet. Wasn't the shoe found a couple of feet from the flagpole at the side of the kerb?

I don't think we are going on Trooper Paul are we? We have more data now and Dr Welcher

 

[evoway13]

....are we discounting Trooper Paul's reconstruction?

 

[NarcRage]

I agree, if she was going fast in reverse, he would've gone a lot further

Not if she clipped him and spun him so he was off balance and fell, which seems to be the theory being put forward. She obviously didn't slam into his full body because he would have more bruising/broken bones. I think it was a side swipe. Karen herself called it a "clip"

 

[LondonCalling272]

....are we discounting Trooper Paul's reconstruction?

Can it be discounted when Welcher used his info? At least one of his pictures was in the PowerPoint slideshow yesterday. That may have opened the door for it to come in again

 

[NarcRage]

....are we discounting Trooper Paul's reconstruction?

I don't think it's necessary. Has it been put into evidence in this trial?

 

[NarcRage]

Can it be discounted when Welcher used his info? At least one of his pictures was in the PowerPoint slideshow yesterday. That may have opened the door for it to come in again

It wasn't a picture from his report. They both used the same original picture and Trooper Paul added text onto the photo for his report. Trooper Paul's exhibit has text on it so it was not a photo from his report .

 

[dustyrhodes]

I'm not buying conspiracy. I will never be convinced. Shoddy police work, crappy, sloppy techniques with added misogyny. All reprehensible, but that doesn't prove a set up. The truth is usually simple and straightforward, it doesn't require mental gymnastics or a tin foil hat.
She's guilty of manslaughter, but there isn't enough for a conviction.
That poor family.

 

[evoway13]

It’s misleading to say that they ‘don’t match’. They may not physically match each other in a jigsaw puzzle (because we know Karen has said she picked out pieces elsewhere), but it’s not like they’re from a random tail light.

And the time they were recovered is irrelevant. They had the initial pieces recovered by SERT (two officers testified) before anyone else had set foot on the property and Karen’s car wasn’t impounded by then.

The car was collected at 4.00pm and was booked into the Sally Port at 5.31pm The first pieces of tail light found by SERT was around 5.45pm. The Sally port is a 5 minute drive from Fairview

 

[dustyrhodes]

Can it be discounted when Welcher used his info? At least one of his pictures was in the PowerPoint slideshow yesterday. That may have opened the door for it to come in again

It will come up again, Welcher opened the door to it