- Notice
I have a number of people in my social circles who identify as either non-binary or trans. Some are of the nature you describe, but one I just give up with even speaking to now, as they are of the extreme views that most on this thread are talking about. I accidentally called them “she” and although I apologised (I have grown up with them so it’s a difficult habit to get out of) they stormed off and kicked up a huge fuss, accusing me of being transphobic. The vast majority would not act this way and would understand you are trying your best, but some are absolutely exasperating to interact with when they are this extreme to jump on any minor accident as bigotry. I don’t think for one second anyone on here is disagreeing with what the vast majority of trans people believe, but rather the small minority that seem to be shouting the loudest across social media over anyone that attempts an intelligent debate.
I work in healthcare and it’s such a difficult process to even wade through. Some don’t tell you and then get offended when you ask medical questions that are related to their biological sex, even though without asking those questions it is putting their health at risk. The vast majority are open and acknowledge this though. I did once have someone who outright questioned after the consultation why I hadn’t asked them about cervical smears (maybe because I can tell you were formerly male and you don’t have a cervix??) - they got uptight about the fact that I clearly didn’t view them as “passing” so they challenged me on it. It’s just an absolute minefield and with people shutting down a debate on it it’s getting even harder.
My personal opinion is trans rights and women’s rights are separate. I believe in both, but when you attempt to smush them together like current wokeness would have you believe you erase another. We should be allies to each other, not pretending we are the same.
amethyst_unicorn
Chatty Member
Summary of previous thread
Many contributors acknowledged their thanks and support of JK Rowling speaking up for women, standing up for women's rights and particularly raising concerns about the current political and social trend to promote extreme trans-activism at the expense of the safety of women and girls by allowing a biologically determined male (i.e. someone with intact male genitalia) to self identify as female and enter female designated places, such as toilets and changing rooms.
There has been much discussion with occasional contributors making statements that to not accept the current trend was transphobic, making comments about supportive opinions of JK Rowling were being made by "Karen's", "TERFs" or "cis" (usually) older females (definitions at end of post).
On the whole, intelligent arguments were made to counter these allegations. JK Rowling continues to be lambasted by extremists and there is a campaign to "cancel" her and her contribution to literature, culture and society. Some of the excellent arguments I copied and saved, but to my shame forgot to save the names of the contributors so please, if this was your contribution, acknowledge it and thank you
" I have no issues whatsoever with trans people. I do however have issues with men who still have penises and have no intention of undergoing genital surgery but still identify as women. Some insist that they should be allowed into women only spaces such as changing rooms and public toilets, and that if they go to prison they should go to a women’s prison. Several self-identified trans women have sexually assaulted or raped women prisoners whilst in jail.
They also believe that lesbians who won’t sleep with them are transphobic and have attacked and harassed women who don‘t agree with them.
These are the types that JK Rowling has issues with."
"The trans sense of entitlement really reminds me of er...male entitlement actually. Entitled to women’s spaces and women’s bodies.
Fuck off with that shit."
"The trans lobby is inherently anti women. Look at the comments on this thread. If they were supportive of gays and lesbians why have they alienated lesbians by arguing that they are homophobic for refusing to sleep with trans women. Leave women alone. Leave us be. And stop calling us cis. We are not a sub set of woman. We are women. Not cis, not bleeders, not menstruators, not cervix holders. Women. Adult female human. Woman."
"They can do what the fuck they want. Just keep their male bodies and male pattern criminality AWAY from women and children.
Yaniv is NOT an isolated incident. That is an utter lie. There is an entire subreddit, r/thisneverhappens , dedicated to recording such crimes.
One that springs to mind is Karen White, a convicted bepenised rapist and paedophile who was put in a women’s prison, and who, surprise surprise, sexually assaulted his fellow inmates.
Another is teenage transgenderist Katie Dolatowski, who attempted to sexually assault a 10 year old girl in a women’s public toilet."
"Trans women’s rights are directly taking away women’s rights.
The entire reason that women’s spaces are separate from men’s is that men are a risk to women. This risk is due to male-bodied strength relative to females, and male pattern criminality.
Since transwomen retain both male-bodied strength and the same tendency to commit male-pattern criminality, admitting transwomen into women’s safe spaces is the same risk as admitting men into these spaces. It is therefore the same as taking away women’s right to safe spaces.
This is proven by the fact that transwomen make up 0.5% of women’s prison oppositions but commit 11% of rapes. This number is conservative because transwomen with gender recognition certificates are counted as female.
As for transwomen being unwelcome in male toilets due to the threat of male violence, firstly there is no evidence that this is the case, unlike the countless crimes committed by transwomen in women’s toilets. Drag queens have been using men’s toilets for decades with few issues.
Men should be educated to not attack violent males in different clothing. Women's and children’s safety should not be sacrificed for issues that are not our fault.
Black women have spoken up about historic US toilet segregation being compared trans women’s invasive demands. You are an ignorant racist. Firstly it is racist because you are comparing black women to biological males, and because you are misrepresenting their historic struggles to use them as props in arguments.
Secondly it’s not a valid comparison; blacks were segregated in many areas of life including even water fountains and bus seats, not just private safe spaces. The toilets were extensions of general segregation, not due to particular concerns about black womens’ anatomy, strength, or sex crime risk, as you imply with these irrelevant comparisons.
Please state exactly what JK Rowling has said that “fuels hatred”.
My last thought is that it’s ironic that you are accusing this thread of being an “echo chamber”, when you are so enraged by JK Rowling gentle disagreeing with an echo chamber, that you want to boycott her."
"The majority of transgender women retain their male genitalia. So, the point is, people with penises will be using female spaces - not just toilets (which aren’t really the issue) but open changing rooms, women’s only wards in hospitals, women’s prisons, domestic abuse shelters etc. The fact is that there will be vulnerable women, victims of rape and abuse, who will have significant trauma, and should not be forced to share these spaces with people with penises, just because those people feel like women.
It’s a further problem when you realise that most transgender ideology and charities now believe that transgender does not mean you have gender dysphoria or even have to attempt to present as the opposite sex. If you say you are, you are. So a bearded, male-looking person can say he’s a woman and that’s that. Isn’t that troubling?
Then we get to the fact that self ID laws and this idea of “everyone is what they say they are” can be exploited by male predators. It is being exploited already, there are numerous examples of this. This is without getting into the fact that some transwomen (emphasis on some) are predators themselves. Plenty of examples out there."
"(It would have prevented) Katie Dolatowski (being) in the ladies toilets in the Morrisons in Kirkcaldy when, on two separate occasions, Katie filmed a 12-year-old girl over the cubicle wall and sexually assaulted a 10one-year-old girl while her father waited for her outside. Katie was convicted of voyeurism and sexual assault."
"For me it’s not just about toilets.
I, of course, do believe trans people have rights. I recognise they are a marginalised group. I believe that gender is a social construct.
i will also say this; women have difficulty entering public spaces. From catcalling, to being groped, to being abused - all of this behaviour stems from the public sphere historically being the Male domain, something that is still present in the psyche of people today. We have had to fight and negotiate for our place in this public sphere - to be able to walk down the street in a skirt and not have it be commented upon. To be able to walk alone at night. By virtue of being born with a specific set of genitalia, women have been removed from certain privileges. We continue to fight for these.
There is also the fact that, statistically, the vast vast majority of women have been sexually harassed or assaulted in the UK. I’d go so far to say that every single woman in the U.K. has experienced a form of harassment or assault at some point, ranging from unwanted advances in a pub, to someone grabbing your bum, to full on attacks. It is prevalent. I include myself among this statistic, as does JK.
I also do not see trans women as being a threat or as being perpetrators of this abuse at all. Most I’ve known are gentle souls with more empathy than most. This isn’t about these people being abusive.
for me the issue is this; women have carefully negotiated their place in the public sphere. If we - as a society - deem any people who are biologically Male AND decide they identify as the gender female, should have access to these spaces, it removes arenas that have been ringfenced for biological/cis women and it opens our public spheres to anyone who claims they are a woman. It’s opens our protected rights and spaces to exploitation.
we have had the vote for just a hundred years, compared to thousands of years of oppression. Until relatively recently, a woman was property of her male relatives or husband with few legal rights. It is mind numbing, just how recent this state of affairs was.
it isn’t about if I mind a trans woman in a bathroom; it’s about minding if a trans woman can use female only gym areas, women’s only swimming sessions, designated women’s sporting events, women’s changing rooms, women’s domestic abuse facilities, women’s health facilities and so on.
in worst case scenarios, women who have been subject to abuse from men (I volunteered in a charity supporting these women) sometimes find they cannot feel safe or secure in the presence of men. To state that any biological Male should have access to these women’s spaces based on their gender identity alone, is an idea worthy of discussion at the very least. No one should have TERF yelled at them over it."
The following definitions are from dictionary.com
"Cancel Culture" - Canceling, today, is used like a massive, informal boycott when someone or something in the public eye offends … or when we’re just over them. Justified or not, canceling someone sounds harsh. Synonyms for cancel are similarly severe: abort, wipe out, squash, trash, and repudiate.
"What happens when someone gets canceled?"
There are varying degrees of cancelation. Sometimes, it’s just a general declaration via the media or by social-media users. In other cases, however, cancelations are accompanied by mass unfollowings on social media, declines in sales and subscriptions, lost contracts, and more. While canceling can also be used with benign or humorous intent, such as with love, in other cases, canceling someone can have a very real impact on their livelihood.
"Karen" is a pejorative slang term for an obnoxious, angry, entitled, and often racist middle-aged white woman who uses her privilege to get her way or police other people's behaviours.
In 2020, Karen spread as a label used to call out white women who were in viral videos engaging in what are widely seen as racist acts.
"TERF" is an acronym for "trans-exclusionary radical feminism" or "trans-exclusionary radical feminist."
TERF is used to describe cisgender women who self-identify as feminist but who are opposed to including transgender women in spaces they reserve for people who were assigned female at birth. This is because they believe trans women are men and since men cannot coexist with their feminist ideologies, they exclude them from their beliefs and support. In fact, they often believe they should be denied rights and sometimes advocate for harm against trans people.
"Gender" is sometimes confused with “sex.” “Sex” is biological; gender is complex and somewhat amorphous, and relates to behavioral and psychological traits. Gender is primarily applied to human beings.
"Sex assignment" is the determination of an infant’s sex at birth. Generally, it’s unambiguous, but there may be complications in making that assignment if a baby is intersex. (People born with genital ambiguity were previously referred to as “hermaphrodites,” but that term is considered outdated and “intersex” is now preferred.) On occasion the sex that a child is assigned at birth doesn’t conform with that person’s innate gender identity.
"Cisgender", or just "cis", is a term for a person whose gender identity corresponds with their biological sex assigned at birth. It’s the opposite of transgender. The prefix cis is Latin for “on this side of,” whereas trans means “on the other side of.”Cisgender is favored over another term, gender-normative, which can be seen to imply that transgender identities are not “normal.”
"Transgender" has long applied to people whose gender identities do not correspond to the sex they were assigned at birth. It can be used for those who have sex reassignment surgery, or for those who present and live publicly as a different gender than they were assigned at birth.
Transgender is the “T” in the acronym LGBTQ.
"Gender identity" is a person’s self-perception of their gender as male, female, a mix of male and female, or as something else beyond the gender binary. It may differ from their sex assigned at birth. A range of identities are now being recognized.
"Binary", in the context of the gender lexicon, refers to the view of gender as consisting of only two identities: man or woman, male or female.
Nonbinary refers to a gender identity outside of those two categories: not exclusively male or female, perhaps both, neither, or something else entirely.
"Gender Neutrality" - In addition to gender neutral words and restrooms, gender neutrality can refer to the concept of ending the branding and discrimination related to gender and sex in society. Gender neutrality also encourages the idea that we should end the practice of giving roles or making rules based on sex or gender.
Many contributors acknowledged their thanks and support of JK Rowling speaking up for women, standing up for women's rights and particularly raising concerns about the current political and social trend to promote extreme trans-activism at the expense of the safety of women and girls by allowing a biologically determined male (i.e. someone with intact male genitalia) to self identify as female and enter female designated places, such as toilets and changing rooms.
There has been much discussion with occasional contributors making statements that to not accept the current trend was transphobic, making comments about supportive opinions of JK Rowling were being made by "Karen's", "TERFs" or "cis" (usually) older females (definitions at end of post).
On the whole, intelligent arguments were made to counter these allegations. JK Rowling continues to be lambasted by extremists and there is a campaign to "cancel" her and her contribution to literature, culture and society. Some of the excellent arguments I copied and saved, but to my shame forgot to save the names of the contributors so please, if this was your contribution, acknowledge it and thank you
" I have no issues whatsoever with trans people. I do however have issues with men who still have penises and have no intention of undergoing genital surgery but still identify as women. Some insist that they should be allowed into women only spaces such as changing rooms and public toilets, and that if they go to prison they should go to a women’s prison. Several self-identified trans women have sexually assaulted or raped women prisoners whilst in jail.
They also believe that lesbians who won’t sleep with them are transphobic and have attacked and harassed women who don‘t agree with them.
These are the types that JK Rowling has issues with."
"The trans sense of entitlement really reminds me of er...male entitlement actually. Entitled to women’s spaces and women’s bodies.
Fuck off with that shit."
"The trans lobby is inherently anti women. Look at the comments on this thread. If they were supportive of gays and lesbians why have they alienated lesbians by arguing that they are homophobic for refusing to sleep with trans women. Leave women alone. Leave us be. And stop calling us cis. We are not a sub set of woman. We are women. Not cis, not bleeders, not menstruators, not cervix holders. Women. Adult female human. Woman."
"They can do what the fuck they want. Just keep their male bodies and male pattern criminality AWAY from women and children.
Yaniv is NOT an isolated incident. That is an utter lie. There is an entire subreddit, r/thisneverhappens , dedicated to recording such crimes.
One that springs to mind is Karen White, a convicted bepenised rapist and paedophile who was put in a women’s prison, and who, surprise surprise, sexually assaulted his fellow inmates.
Another is teenage transgenderist Katie Dolatowski, who attempted to sexually assault a 10 year old girl in a women’s public toilet."
"Trans women’s rights are directly taking away women’s rights.
The entire reason that women’s spaces are separate from men’s is that men are a risk to women. This risk is due to male-bodied strength relative to females, and male pattern criminality.
Since transwomen retain both male-bodied strength and the same tendency to commit male-pattern criminality, admitting transwomen into women’s safe spaces is the same risk as admitting men into these spaces. It is therefore the same as taking away women’s right to safe spaces.
This is proven by the fact that transwomen make up 0.5% of women’s prison oppositions but commit 11% of rapes. This number is conservative because transwomen with gender recognition certificates are counted as female.
As for transwomen being unwelcome in male toilets due to the threat of male violence, firstly there is no evidence that this is the case, unlike the countless crimes committed by transwomen in women’s toilets. Drag queens have been using men’s toilets for decades with few issues.
Men should be educated to not attack violent males in different clothing. Women's and children’s safety should not be sacrificed for issues that are not our fault.
Black women have spoken up about historic US toilet segregation being compared trans women’s invasive demands. You are an ignorant racist. Firstly it is racist because you are comparing black women to biological males, and because you are misrepresenting their historic struggles to use them as props in arguments.
Secondly it’s not a valid comparison; blacks were segregated in many areas of life including even water fountains and bus seats, not just private safe spaces. The toilets were extensions of general segregation, not due to particular concerns about black womens’ anatomy, strength, or sex crime risk, as you imply with these irrelevant comparisons.
Please state exactly what JK Rowling has said that “fuels hatred”.
My last thought is that it’s ironic that you are accusing this thread of being an “echo chamber”, when you are so enraged by JK Rowling gentle disagreeing with an echo chamber, that you want to boycott her."
"The majority of transgender women retain their male genitalia. So, the point is, people with penises will be using female spaces - not just toilets (which aren’t really the issue) but open changing rooms, women’s only wards in hospitals, women’s prisons, domestic abuse shelters etc. The fact is that there will be vulnerable women, victims of rape and abuse, who will have significant trauma, and should not be forced to share these spaces with people with penises, just because those people feel like women.
It’s a further problem when you realise that most transgender ideology and charities now believe that transgender does not mean you have gender dysphoria or even have to attempt to present as the opposite sex. If you say you are, you are. So a bearded, male-looking person can say he’s a woman and that’s that. Isn’t that troubling?
Then we get to the fact that self ID laws and this idea of “everyone is what they say they are” can be exploited by male predators. It is being exploited already, there are numerous examples of this. This is without getting into the fact that some transwomen (emphasis on some) are predators themselves. Plenty of examples out there."
"(It would have prevented) Katie Dolatowski (being) in the ladies toilets in the Morrisons in Kirkcaldy when, on two separate occasions, Katie filmed a 12-year-old girl over the cubicle wall and sexually assaulted a 10one-year-old girl while her father waited for her outside. Katie was convicted of voyeurism and sexual assault."
"For me it’s not just about toilets.
I, of course, do believe trans people have rights. I recognise they are a marginalised group. I believe that gender is a social construct.
i will also say this; women have difficulty entering public spaces. From catcalling, to being groped, to being abused - all of this behaviour stems from the public sphere historically being the Male domain, something that is still present in the psyche of people today. We have had to fight and negotiate for our place in this public sphere - to be able to walk down the street in a skirt and not have it be commented upon. To be able to walk alone at night. By virtue of being born with a specific set of genitalia, women have been removed from certain privileges. We continue to fight for these.
There is also the fact that, statistically, the vast vast majority of women have been sexually harassed or assaulted in the UK. I’d go so far to say that every single woman in the U.K. has experienced a form of harassment or assault at some point, ranging from unwanted advances in a pub, to someone grabbing your bum, to full on attacks. It is prevalent. I include myself among this statistic, as does JK.
I also do not see trans women as being a threat or as being perpetrators of this abuse at all. Most I’ve known are gentle souls with more empathy than most. This isn’t about these people being abusive.
for me the issue is this; women have carefully negotiated their place in the public sphere. If we - as a society - deem any people who are biologically Male AND decide they identify as the gender female, should have access to these spaces, it removes arenas that have been ringfenced for biological/cis women and it opens our public spheres to anyone who claims they are a woman. It’s opens our protected rights and spaces to exploitation.
we have had the vote for just a hundred years, compared to thousands of years of oppression. Until relatively recently, a woman was property of her male relatives or husband with few legal rights. It is mind numbing, just how recent this state of affairs was.
it isn’t about if I mind a trans woman in a bathroom; it’s about minding if a trans woman can use female only gym areas, women’s only swimming sessions, designated women’s sporting events, women’s changing rooms, women’s domestic abuse facilities, women’s health facilities and so on.
in worst case scenarios, women who have been subject to abuse from men (I volunteered in a charity supporting these women) sometimes find they cannot feel safe or secure in the presence of men. To state that any biological Male should have access to these women’s spaces based on their gender identity alone, is an idea worthy of discussion at the very least. No one should have TERF yelled at them over it."
The following definitions are from dictionary.com
"Cancel Culture" - Canceling, today, is used like a massive, informal boycott when someone or something in the public eye offends … or when we’re just over them. Justified or not, canceling someone sounds harsh. Synonyms for cancel are similarly severe: abort, wipe out, squash, trash, and repudiate.
"What happens when someone gets canceled?"
There are varying degrees of cancelation. Sometimes, it’s just a general declaration via the media or by social-media users. In other cases, however, cancelations are accompanied by mass unfollowings on social media, declines in sales and subscriptions, lost contracts, and more. While canceling can also be used with benign or humorous intent, such as with love, in other cases, canceling someone can have a very real impact on their livelihood.
"Karen" is a pejorative slang term for an obnoxious, angry, entitled, and often racist middle-aged white woman who uses her privilege to get her way or police other people's behaviours.
In 2020, Karen spread as a label used to call out white women who were in viral videos engaging in what are widely seen as racist acts.
"TERF" is an acronym for "trans-exclusionary radical feminism" or "trans-exclusionary radical feminist."
TERF is used to describe cisgender women who self-identify as feminist but who are opposed to including transgender women in spaces they reserve for people who were assigned female at birth. This is because they believe trans women are men and since men cannot coexist with their feminist ideologies, they exclude them from their beliefs and support. In fact, they often believe they should be denied rights and sometimes advocate for harm against trans people.
"Gender" is sometimes confused with “sex.” “Sex” is biological; gender is complex and somewhat amorphous, and relates to behavioral and psychological traits. Gender is primarily applied to human beings.
"Sex assignment" is the determination of an infant’s sex at birth. Generally, it’s unambiguous, but there may be complications in making that assignment if a baby is intersex. (People born with genital ambiguity were previously referred to as “hermaphrodites,” but that term is considered outdated and “intersex” is now preferred.) On occasion the sex that a child is assigned at birth doesn’t conform with that person’s innate gender identity.
"Cisgender", or just "cis", is a term for a person whose gender identity corresponds with their biological sex assigned at birth. It’s the opposite of transgender. The prefix cis is Latin for “on this side of,” whereas trans means “on the other side of.”Cisgender is favored over another term, gender-normative, which can be seen to imply that transgender identities are not “normal.”
"Transgender" has long applied to people whose gender identities do not correspond to the sex they were assigned at birth. It can be used for those who have sex reassignment surgery, or for those who present and live publicly as a different gender than they were assigned at birth.
Transgender is the “T” in the acronym LGBTQ.
"Gender identity" is a person’s self-perception of their gender as male, female, a mix of male and female, or as something else beyond the gender binary. It may differ from their sex assigned at birth. A range of identities are now being recognized.
"Binary", in the context of the gender lexicon, refers to the view of gender as consisting of only two identities: man or woman, male or female.
Nonbinary refers to a gender identity outside of those two categories: not exclusively male or female, perhaps both, neither, or something else entirely.
"Gender Neutrality" - In addition to gender neutral words and restrooms, gender neutrality can refer to the concept of ending the branding and discrimination related to gender and sex in society. Gender neutrality also encourages the idea that we should end the practice of giving roles or making rules based on sex or gender.
Attachments
SqualorVictoria
VIP Member
Some non binary people claim that misgendering someone- even accidentally- is an act of violence. I'm sorry but there are women all over the world who are experiencing actual acts of violence on a daily basis so therefore I have no time for "misgendering is an act of violence".
Lanavalentine
VIP Member
You are misinformed. They absolutely ARE transactivists. That is how TRAs speak to women who believe in biological reality.
Well, you cannot actually change biological sex. That’s the problem. And you’ve missed the point - it’s not that transactivists want to pretend we don’t have vaginas, it’s that they don’t want us to talk about having vaginas, because it makes them feel negative feelings.
Agreed (although you’re kind of bastardizing that quote).
Again, you’re misinformed. Many don’t recognise it’s a separate issue - the conflation of sex and gender, and furthermore, the erasure of biological sex as a concept, is rampant in TRA circles and their ideology. Look it up.
Many women defending sex-based rights ARE gender non-conforming, and many of us speak to transpeople every day, both transpeople who agree with us (delightfully named “truscum” by TRAs) and those who don’t (in the form of arguments and debate).
Then the transpeople you know are probably considered “truscum” by TRAs and therefore won’t be liked or respected by them. Please do some research into what the loudest voices in trans ideology are saying. Your information is outdated and clearly anectdotal.
Your friends aren’t the ones who are trying to silence women, or invade their safe spaces while retaining male genitalia or making literally no effort to transition. These people exist and are in greater numbers and much louder than your friends.
I gave you two. Please research what happened in Wyoming with TRAs attempting to block a bill against FGM. Again, your trans friends are clearly “truscum” and they are not the TRAs who are responsible for this attack on women. Research what is going on.
This isn’t what is happening though. Yet again, you are misinformed. TRAs actively WANT a hypothetical person like this to have male written on their medical records. Gender critical feminists don’t agree with this, because of the issues it can cause, as suggested.
This is also kind of a non sequitur because gender critical feminism includes transmen. We want them to have access to smears etc. The problem is in changing the language around women’s biology to accomodate their feelings, hence silencing women and their ability to accurately describe themselves.
You seem to have entirely misunderstood the gender critical point of view. It’s not about “identifying” as female. People who have vaginas ARE biologically female. You can live how you want, dress how you want, call yourself whatever you want - we don’t care. We do care that because of how you personally identify, we are being told it is “transphobic” to call ourselves women or say things like women have periods. We are constantly being told that penises are female. And we’re the ones denying biological reality??!
I appreciate that you are attempting to engage with the arguments here, but I don’t think you’re fully aware of what is going on. The fact you think the people attacking Jana Cornell are trolls, not TRAs, shows you are not fully aware of the extent of the current war on women.
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Practically Perfect
Chatty Member
I am almost 49 and I am scared to to open my mouth in case I unintentionally offend somebody.
So apparently now i have to say
I am genuinely sorry if my next statement pushes buttons but; after having periods and period pain for 35 years, being pregnant for a total of 27 months, going through labour and birth 3 times and now the fecking 'change' NO-ONE is telling me that i am not a bloody WOMAN.
Honestly the world is frigging bonkers.
So apparently now i have to say
- I am a person who menstruated monthly for 35 years
- I am now a person going through the change and its the pits of hell
- I am a person with a cervix who birthed 3 children
I am genuinely sorry if my next statement pushes buttons but; after having periods and period pain for 35 years, being pregnant for a total of 27 months, going through labour and birth 3 times and now the fecking 'change' NO-ONE is telling me that i am not a bloody WOMAN.
Honestly the world is frigging bonkers.
Falkor
VIP Member
I don't identify as a gender, I am a woman. I don't wear make up, don't wear dresses unless it's a family wedding, don't own a pair of heels, don't have and don't want children, in fact I do very little that is stereotypically female - Mr Falkor does all the cooking because he loves to, I can often be found happily taking a sledgehammer to the inside of a house I'm stripping out for renovation. My biological sex makes me a woman.
Lanavalentine
VIP Member
Which posts do you find transphobic? How are you defining transphobia?
This is the root of the problem for me. So many people seem to feel that it’s perfectly ok for women’s language and rights (see above for a handy list of the rights women would lose under a reformed GRA, from transwoman Fionne Orlander) to be removed and revoked, in order to make room for transpeople and their identity and feelings around that.
We have gotten to the point where biology, women’s rights and ability to clearly label and define ourselves is transphobic. How is this ok?
Now, if we’re talking about actual transphobia, which I haven’t seen any examples of on this thread - hating people because they are trans, attacking them, mocking them as “freaks”, refusing to employ them because they are trans... that is abhorrent, and like JK Rowling said in her essay, I’d march alongside the people who campaign against this.
Funnily enough though, I don’t see a huge amount of campaigning for trans rights beyond those that trample women’s rights in the process. Never seen a campaign about housing for example, or discrimination in employment and education (beyond sex-segregated bathroom use). I wonder why that is?
Lanavalentine
VIP Member
Actual transphobia, I’m sure it does.
The problem is with what TRAs have deemed transphobic. Anything to do with women‘s biology, talking about it in public, using the words that define us = transphobic. That actively shuts down women and their ability to discuss the very thing that oppresses us (still), because our biology is the root of our oppression and even in western countries, women, particularly women of colour, face challenges within medical care, the workplace and the home/relationships relating to their natural bodily functions.
Anywhere that women congregate without male bodies is also considered transphobic. No more privacy or safe spaces for women! Are you a rape survivor with significant trauma? Too bad, your sexual violence trauma support group now has to allow visibly male people into it. Just suck it up, otherwise you’re transphobic.
That’s before we even get to what’s happening in developing countries and how girls and women are dying every day, are being disfigured for life, are living a life of daily abuse and rape and forced pregnancy from a horrendously young age, all because of their natural biology. We aren’t allowed to talk about that either, it’s transphobic! The campaigns against FGM are told to pipe down and are even told that sexual reassigment surgery is THE SAME THING! It is beyond belief.
It is an utterly insane idea that talking about these very important topics, which affect a marginalised group of people, is transphobic.
It actually has nothing to do with trans people, it’s about girls and women. There is no hate, only truth that doesn’t concern them, and that’s what riles them up so much.
I am so sick and tired of seeing people drink the Kool Aid and refer to women as cervix havers or people who menstruate. We are being forced to adjust our language to accomodate a tiny group of people, and in doing so, we’re alienating a much larger group of people (women), some of whom will be actively harmed by these changes. I cannot fathom why anyone who cares about human rights believes this to be the right and good thing.
emmer_moans
VIP Member
That letter reads very well, she's standing by her beliefs.
This quote stands out to me:
"I’ve been forced to the unhappy conclusion that an ethical and medical scandal is brewing. I believe the time is coming when those organisations and individuals who have uncritically embraced fashionable dogma, and demonised those urging caution, will have to answer for the harm they’ve enabled."
This is what a lot of us have pointed out, that teens are being encouraged to transition medically without enough preparation. Also, she's right, a lot of people are being demonised for speaking out. I feel like we are being gaslit when TRAs (and woke Twitter people) say "womens rights are not being impinged".
Good for JK for standing firm.
Bitofthebubbly
VIP Member
We don’t need the word ‘Cis’ to describe women and it sounds ridiculous to me when people say it. Just say man or woman, trans woman or trans man, I don’t see how that’s so confusing or ‘not inclusive’ for people. If anything throwing ‘cis’ in there adds to the confusion. Why are trans women demanding to be called real women whilst trying to make ‘cis’ a thing? So they get to call themselves women, but actual women don’t? It’s bullshit.
I am a woman not a ‘cis woman’ and regardless of what it means in Latin or what ever I don’t accept being referred to as ‘cis’. Trans people are the ones making the changes to themselves, not me. So why should I be expected to change how I refer to myself and other women and men? Whilst trans women go round shouting “trans women are women”. I’m a woman and always have been, I’ll be respectful and use people’s preferred pronouns so I expect the same level of respect back and for people to not call me ‘cis’. Fuck the word cis.
I am a woman not a ‘cis woman’ and regardless of what it means in Latin or what ever I don’t accept being referred to as ‘cis’. Trans people are the ones making the changes to themselves, not me. So why should I be expected to change how I refer to myself and other women and men? Whilst trans women go round shouting “trans women are women”. I’m a woman and always have been, I’ll be respectful and use people’s preferred pronouns so I expect the same level of respect back and for people to not call me ‘cis’. Fuck the word cis.
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Bitofthebubbly
VIP Member
People come on this thread regularly to call us all transphobic but very rarely do they come back to actually discuss it.
Guess it just gives them good feels and woke points to come in and ‘put us in our place’ (and add exactly nothing to the discussion) and then flounce off again whilst congratulating themselves on how woke and inclusive they are.
Guess it just gives them good feels and woke points to come in and ‘put us in our place’ (and add exactly nothing to the discussion) and then flounce off again whilst congratulating themselves on how woke and inclusive they are.
DigiDuino
Well-known member
I've come to hate the word 'cis' in a really deep way.
I recently saw an argument on twitter (from someone who hates JK) who kept calling people Cis despite repeatedly being asked not to do so.
Why are other people allowed to pick their own pronouns, genders etc but when women do not wish to be called something they are immediately transphobic.
I can't even stand twitter anymore because of all the vitriol surrounding this. #istandwithJKRowling is trending again but it's just people spamming hate against her.
I recently saw an argument on twitter (from someone who hates JK) who kept calling people Cis despite repeatedly being asked not to do so.
Why are other people allowed to pick their own pronouns, genders etc but when women do not wish to be called something they are immediately transphobic.
I can't even stand twitter anymore because of all the vitriol surrounding this. #istandwithJKRowling is trending again but it's just people spamming hate against her.
SqualorVictoria
VIP Member
I agree with all of that and I utterly reject the term "cis". If we respect their right to pronouns they should do the same and not apply terms to us that we don't want.
Milliemoo99
VIP Member
If all trans people recognise that biological females have vaginas, where on earth did this idea of 'cis' females come from?
I was born female, and I am still female, or a woman, I have absolutely no idea why anyone is attempting to change my personal identity and label me cis?
I dont have any issue with anyone wearing whatever they want to, or identifying as whatever gender they choose, I am sure it has been going on for generations.
I do have an issue if it tries to change my identity, or if transwomen, born male, full of testosterone enhanced muscles etc, try to say they have an equal right to compete in all womens events!
And I have issues if we arent allowed to discuss it openly without causing offence!
Holly Golightly
Active member
Women need J.K. Rowling's support more than ever when we have a person like Nadia Whittome - an MP, oh my God! - saying that even debating trans issues "rolling back equality" on trans rights.
I am honestly scared stiff of what these people are trying to do, and too often succeeding. Equality is not the name of the game. They want to be "more than" everyone else.
I am honestly scared stiff of what these people are trying to do, and too often succeeding. Equality is not the name of the game. They want to be "more than" everyone else.
MidnightAura
VIP Member
I firmly stand with JK Rowling. The abuse she got and continues to get makes me sick.