Gender Discussion #98

[TheMiceInTheShed]

That’s really interesting. Makes sense that a Muslim girl with limited scope for rebellion might go deeper into religion than kick back against it.



Despite being an atheist, I think our society is suffering for the lack of religion, and people are turning to even more bonkers ideologies instead to fill the void.



Fascinating! I definitely think a lot of foreign cultures in the UK, certainly not just Hindus (actually I’d say that Hindus are less like to indulge in such behaviours, since they’re underrepresented in crime and prison stats) possess very different moral codes and, again, our society is all the worse for it. I didn’t know about the trickery angle in Hinduism but was aware of the tenet about accumulating wealth

RE; BIB - "People who stop believing in God don't believe in nothing - they believe in anything"- GK Chesterton

And here in the west, whether you are a person of faith or an atheist, your life has been founded upon, and shaped by, a Christian ethos. Even if you resent the fact, it is the water we swim in - it's all-pervading and evident in all of our social service systems etc (which are not, as far as I am aware) present in any non-Christian country - except Israel.

Everything about our society would have been radically different if there was no Christianity. It's as simple as that. It isn't perfect, because people aren't perfect, but it is closer to it than many other faiths are.

Atheists may claim that non-belief would be the way to go - but would it? And even Richard Dawkins said that there must be an evolutionary advantage to having a belief in a "superior being", otherwise it wouldn't be so all-pervasive in every society.

 

[TheMiceInTheShed]

This. The more I read about Islam, the more it horrifies me and I want to see it eradicated. In addition to condoning subjugation of women and pedophilia, it condones bestiality. There is nothing peaceful about this religion. It's disgusting and merely exists as a control form. It's the ultimate religion for misogynists, bullies, perverts and narcissists.
I genuinely fear that in 50 years time or so, I'll have to 'convert' to Islam to ensure the survival of my family and myself. I have a disabled daughter whose mental age is below that of her actual age. I'm terrified for her because I know how evil men can be. Sometimes, I worry that we'd be better off dead if the future came to that. I know that sounds extreme but the UK govt have deliberately created this situation, since at least the Blair years. Lately, there has been a huge drive throughout Europe to import 1000s of men from opposing and dangerous cultures. My birth country of Sweden is not the safe place it used to be. Sexual crimes against women have risen starkly. Swedish prisons are so full that prisoners are being sent to Eastern European prisons to help with the overflow. My German friends don't go to Christmas markets anymore. It's not worth it now that Muslim men are running children over. Scottish communities are suffering and one these men grape a teenager in broad daylight. Women's safety, children's safety does not rank in modern society. I'm bleeping fed up of it. I'm a human being, not a second class citizen.

Hear, hear.

We are being abused as nations and our governments are facilitating the process.

 

[BlairWaldorf86]

Following a religion that has a belief in a higher being is one thing. Using that religion/belief to promote harmful things like misogyny, homophobia, etc is another. Maybe someone needs to invent a religion that believes in a higher power but treats everyone equally.

 

[TheMiceInTheShed]

Following a religion that has a belief in a higher being is one thing. Using that religion/belief to promote harmful things like misogyny, homophobia, etc is another. Maybe someone needs to invent a religion that believes in a higher power but treats everyone equally.

Like Christianity?

That is what Jesus preached.

I agree it isn't always practised, but that is a basic tenet of the faith. "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength, and you shall love your neighbour as yourself" - and everybody is our neighbour ie everyone is equal in the sight of God and should eb treated with respect.

 

[Phil Anne Throw Pee]

Like Christianity?

That is what Jesus preached.

I agree it isn't always practised, but that is a basic tenet of the faith. "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength, and you shall love your neighbour as yourself" - and everybody is our neighbour ie everyone is equal in the sight of God and should eb treated with respect.

I did a Theology degree and have now decided I am very much an atheist. The bible is IMVHO, a fairytale, and a classic example of the patriarchy in action: The grape of Dinah and Eve as the fallen woman just 2 examples of its deep rooted misogyny. All religions subjugate women, even now, we have only just appointed the first female Archbishop of Canterbury.

Belief and the problem of evil is central to my beliefs, and nobody has ever been adequately able to answer the question of how a supposed all loving God can allow innocent children to die in the name of war.

 

[BlairWaldorf86]

Like Christianity?

That is what Jesus preached.

I agree it isn't always practised, but that is a basic tenet of the faith. "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength, and you shall love your neighbour as yourself" - and everybody is our neighbour ie everyone is equal in the sight of God and should eb treated with respect.

I guess the trouble is the Bible (and any other holy book) is completely open to interpretation… if women aren’t classed as people then “love your neighbour as yourself” only applies to men.

 

[moldwarp]

I guess the trouble is the Bible (and any other holy book) is completely open to interpretation… if women aren’t classed as people then “love your neighbour as yourself” only applies to men.

Love Your Neighbout as Yourself is a revolutionary idea because it explicitly shattered the clan system on which Jewish / Judean society was built, which privileged the clan and blood / tribal ties over everything else. Look at the context in which Christ says this and you will see clearly that he is proposing that equality before God should replace tribal and clan instincts.

It was a truly revolutionary (and, in the eyes of the Pharisees and Romans, highly dangerous) idea. And it still is today.

@Phil Anne Throw Pee Jung was bang on about humanity's need to tell stories. Narratives and stories are how we understand ourselves and create some livable order out of the chaos of the universe. From the Flood to the Blitz Spirit, narratives give us meaning. As Popper said there are only actually about 3 narratives in the world (Quest, Katabasis, and I can't recall the third) and all cultures have them.

Look not for literal truth but for the metaphorical truth in all texts which transcend time and culture.

 

[chizontiz]

RE; BIB - "People who stop believing in God don't believe in nothing - they believe in anything"- GK Chesterton

And here in the west, whether you are a person of faith or an atheist, your life has been founded upon, and shaped by, a Christian ethos. Even if you resent the fact, it is the water we swim in - it's all-pervading and evident in all of our social service systems etc (which are not, as far as I am aware) present in any non-Christian country - except Israel.

Everything about our society would have been radically different if there was no Christianity. It's as simple as that. It isn't perfect, because people aren't perfect, but it is closer to it than many other faiths are.

Atheists may claim that non-belief would be the way to go - but would it? And even Richard Dawkins said that there must be an evolutionary advantage to having a belief in a "superior being", otherwise it wouldn't be so all-pervasive in every society.

It’s the evolutionary nature of religion that I’m really interested in atm and trying to read more about. I read something Richard Dawkins-esque about how religions ensure the passing on of genes of certain groups by enforcing strict practices that only ‘true believers’ will commit to, as this weeds out those whose lack of commitment will take resources from the group as a whole. All I could think about when I read that was the trans movement!

 

[TheMiceInTheShed]

I did a Theology degree and have now decided I am very much an atheist. The bible is IMVHO, a fairytale, and a classic example of the patriarchy in action: The grape of Dinah and Eve as the fallen woman just 2 examples of its deep rooted misogyny. All religions subjugate women, even now, we have only just appointed the first female Archbishop of Canterbury.

Belief and the problem of evil is central to my beliefs, and nobody has ever been adequately able to answer the question of how a supposed all loving God can allow innocent children to die in the name of war.

deep rooted misogyny. All religions subjugate women, even now, we have only just appointed the first female Archbishop of Canterbury.

Dinah and Eve (and the daughters of Lot, the dismembered concubine, Jephthah's daughter, the expulsion. of Hagar - what Phyllis Tribble called the "Texts of Terror") are all in the OT. Christianity was totally revolutionary in its gospel of equality for all. It was described as the religion of "slaves and women" (not a compliment) - can't recall who by.

how a supposed all loving God can allow innocent children to die in the name of war.

This comes down to humans' free will - as long as we wage war, refuse to share, put excessive personal wealth before the needs of the vulnerable, there will continue to be suffering. It bugs me as well, I admit.

Love Your Neighbout as Yourself is a revolutionary idea because it explicitly shattered the clan system on which Jewish / Judean society was built, which privileged the clan and blood / tribal ties over everything else. Look at the context in which Christ says this and you will see clearly that he is proposing that equality before God should replace tribal and clan instincts.

It was a truly revolutionary (and, in the eyes of the Pharisees and Romans, highly dangerous) idea. And it still is today.

@Phil Anne Throw Pee Jung was bang on about humanity's need to tell stories. Narratives and stories are how we understand ourselves and create some livable order out of the chaos of the universe. From the Flood to the Blitz Spirit, narratives give us meaning. As Popper said there are only actually about 3 narratives in the world (Quest, Katabasis, and I can't recall the third) and all cultures have them.

Look not for literal truth but for the metaphorical truth in all texts which transcend time and culture.

Christ says this and you will see clearly that he is proposing that equality before God should replace tribal and clan instincts. . .

It was a truly revolutionary (and, in the eyes of the Pharisees and Romans, highly dangerous) idea. And it still is today.

Indeed - if we truly followed his preaching we would perhaps find that there is enough for everyone in this world without destroying the planet in the process

Jung was bang on about humanity's need to tell stories

I think that this is what differentiates us from other animals; the need to create meaning, and to share experiences to form social relationships. Interesting post @moldwarp - thank you. (Ihad to google Katabasis ). I've been trying to find Popper's 3rd narrative, but can't - however, there was an interesting quote from his book "The Open Society and Its Enemies".

He wrote:
"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."

He is right, and I think we are seeing this coming back to bite our tolerant western societies in a whole host of ways.

 

[chizontiz]

Haven’t finished the ep yet but relevant to the current convo and focuses on treatment of women:

https://spotify.link/AjWluw7ruXb

 

[GabbyBeGone]

But the 'boycott' has been everywhere. I just don't believe her on that.

i don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility that she hasn’t heard of it. If you aren’t on social media much or in hardcore TRA social groups then there’s no reason really to have heard of it.

Ive never heard it discussed at work, and only discussed it outside the internet with a fellow TERF friend who had the guts to bring it up.

I suspect many of my workmates are oblivious. Many of them have pronouns in their signature but still talk about their or their families’ love for Harry Potter

 

[VC10]

And of course Stonewall are quick to jump in.

Stonewall backs human rights chief in warning UK over trans exclusion…

archived 15 Oct 2025 10:59:49 UTC

archive.ph

My understanding (from reading articles, IANAL) is that the EHRC has to follow the SC ruling. It can't change the law.

Its function is to work out how it should lawfully be implemented in different circumstances, so that employers and businesses have clear guidance.

Although it's obvious in many situations - we just return to the system we successfully used for many years - it may be unclear for some employers. For example, a small business with 6 employees, 5 women and 1 man, have a toilet block with two cubicles for the women and a single-occupancy toilet for the man. The single toilet is also an accessible toilet. Is this lawful? These are the situations that the EHRC are clarifying. Not whether Harry - now known as Harriet since last Monday - should now be allowed to use the women's. The law says no.

Stonewall are just muddying the waters - as usual.

Stonewall would stand in a bucket of tit if they thought they could earn a kudos point out of it....

 

[Dinate]

Me neither. I think she was being sarcastic saying she hadn’t heard, just like her apology was sarcastic too. Good on her.

I took this in the manner of Mariah Carey's magnificent 'No, I don't know her'.

 

[Dinate]

Baroness Falkner has sent this excellent letter to Bridget Phillipson basically telling her to get on with putting the guidance before parliament:

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/news/ehrc-urges-government-ensure-accurate-statutory-guidance-equality-act-available?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=Orlo

She reminds everyone that the guidance is just that and that is the law is now clear. She adds that organisations who are still relying on the practical implications of the old, now outdated guidance, are likely to be acting unlawfully. In other words, you are breaking the law so just get on with the changes as the law isn't going to magically alter when the guidance is published.

 

[chizontiz]

This less thread related, but relevant to the religion chat, I came across Tim Mackie on YouTube when looking for political/cultural interpretations of the bible. I found this really interesting:



There’s another podcast called Almost Heretical that I’ve listened to a bit of but tbh I need to start with OT for dummies or something because a lot of it (and Tim’s stuff) is way over my head.

thread related, my very female migraines have been a steaming pile of tit this week!

 

[TheMiceInTheShed]

This less thread related, but relevant to the religion chat, I came across Tim Mackie on YouTube when looking for political/cultural interpretations of the bible. I found this really interesting:



There’s another podcast called Almost Heretical that I’ve listened to a bit of but tbh I need to start with OT for dummies or something because a lot of it (and Tim’s stuff) is way over my head.

thread related, my very female migraines have been a steaming pile of tit this week!

Thank you for this - I haven't time to watch it now, but I certainly will.

 

[ObservO]

What will be the next social contagion from the people who want to

Some women do choose to wear it. When I was at uni one of my flat mates insisted on wearing one, her family were horrified. They had escaped Afghanistan and the Taliban (first time they had power) made it to the Uk and were trying to fit in and their daughter was determined to wear one.

There are many muslim women, either by heritage or converts or reverts who elect to wear hijab or niqab out of choice when their parents, family members, partners and no person or authority is requesting them to. I believe the term is hijabi or niqabi women.

There's lots of younger and well educated politically active women who make that choice and the women I know of are great, this is why it doesn't bother me. In the same way as Jewish women in some areas are perfectly able and free to choose to be 'relaxed' or even turn their back on tradition, they choose an ultra-orthodox life and choose to wear the wigs and humble modest clothing and abide by traditions that many think are strange. That's why it doesn't bother me personally, who am I to judge another?

My family of origin was completely effed up, with devastating consequences, so I don't care to judge other people's voluntary actions. So-called British culture and values never did anything for my lot and is not something I care a jot about. If force or harm is involved, different story.

 

[minimaz]

Was scrolling on instagram and saw this video by an OBGYN about the damage Lupron does to teenagers put on it for endometriosis. All the comments are agreeing with her about the harm it does and what an awful class of drugs they are, anyone whos sharing their experience have only ever taken it a few months. Imagine the pile on there would be if she said they shouldn't be used for puberty blocking. One of the most frustrating things about TRAs is their insistence that puberty blockers are a pause button with no harm attached

 

[emmer_moans]

I feel sick. That poor female hotel worker who got murdered by a male "asylum seeker"

This government is willfully putting women and children at risk. There's been rapes, and murder. All directly because we are letting men in whose cultural norms regarding treatment of women DOES NOT ALIGN with the freedoms our women the past 200 years have fought for.

And it seems the stock answer of these rapists and murderers is 'i didn't think it would be wrong' And Starmer is still trying to convince us there is nothing to see here.

There's actually such a hotel in my city centre and it's right near the main shopping centre carpark. I used to walk on foot near there as well, but you know what, I simply will go somewhere else to shop (the nearest out of town retail park). My city centre is one of the UK's most diverse but it looks so run down and full of men.

That poor woman just doing her job

So as women we can't run at night from our own men (by that I mean raised here, any race), we get paid less, not taken seriously by the NHS, etc, and now we are getting grape and assaulted and murdered by unchecked amount of men from abroad who are brought up hating women.

 

[moldwarp]

deep rooted misogyny. All religions subjugate women, even now, we have only just appointed the first female Archbishop of Canterbury.

Dinah and Eve (and the daughters of Lot, the dismembered concubine, Jephthah's daughter, the expulsion. of Hagar - what Phyllis Tribble called the "Texts of Terror") are all in the OT. Christianity was totally revolutionary in its gospel of equality for all. It was described as the religion of "slaves and women" (not a compliment) - can't recall who by.

how a supposed all loving God can allow innocent children to die in the name of war.

This comes down to humans' free will - as long as we wage war, refuse to share, put excessive personal wealth before the needs of the vulnerable, there will continue to be suffering. It bugs me as well, I admit.


Christ says this and you will see clearly that he is proposing that equality before God should replace tribal and clan instincts. . .

It was a truly revolutionary (and, in the eyes of the Pharisees and Romans, highly dangerous) idea. And it still is today.

Indeed - if we truly followed his preaching we would perhaps find that there is enough for everyone in this world without destroying the planet in the process

Jung was bang on about humanity's need to tell stories

I think that this is what differentiates us from other animals; the need to create meaning, and to share experiences to form social relationships. Interesting post @moldwarp - thank you. (Ihad to google Katabasis ). I've been trying to find Popper's 3rd narrative, but can't - however, there was an interesting quote from his book "The Open Society and Its Enemies".

He wrote:
"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."

He is right, and I think we are seeing this coming back to bite our tolerant western societies in a whole host of ways.

It was Nietzsche who said that about Christianity being the religion of slaves and women. He classed Christianity as part of the 'slave morality' he condemned as opposed to the strong with a will to power, like the ancient Greeks and Romans he had a constant hard-on for.

Nietzsche had some proper beef with St Paul, who he thought twisted Christianity until it was the opposite of what Christ intended. I have to say, I 70% agree with him - not fully, but 70%. Paul was a cultural elite and he instituionalised Christianity and added a bunch of stuff to make it acceptable. Christ's teachings were proper revolutionary. Paul's were the same old patriarchy.

Christ's teachings are highly pro-woman. Who were his closest disciples? Mary Magdalen, Mary & Martha. Who was given the privilege of being the first to learn of his resurrection? Mary Magdalen. Who gets the most authorial respect in the New Testament? His mum.

Also, the first and most generous financial backers of Christianity were rich Hellenistic women. Christ's Christianity is defo a religion of strong women. But Paul took it and put the patriarchy back in.

Nietzsche is the guy who said "God is dead" but he didn't mean it triumphantly. He thought it was a really duck-up to kill God, because it meant that we would now have no forgiveness and empathy, and we would be stranded without a unifying moral code. And I think that is exactly what has happened. And we've been tossing around desperately trying to find a replacement belief ever since (Communism, facism, environmentalism, trans...none of it's worked as well as Christianity did! How much have we regressed since we killed God? We've been bleeping idiots!)

I still get bleeping chills when I read Nietzsche's prophetic lament:

"God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?"​