Gender Discussion #76

[Metropolis]

Happy New Year Terfs!

 

[moldwarp]

Im not questioning this AT ALL. However, many of the members of the child rape gangs may have been of Pakistani heritage but they were born HERE. They went to school with “us”, they watched the same tv as “us”.
I absolutely agree that there are pockets of non white men who hate white women. But there are bigger pockets of men from every background who hate ALL women.

I hear you and I respect your contributions to this thread very much, but I would like to respectfully push back on your final sentence: "But there are bigger pockets of men from every background who hate ALL women." I see this argument used a lot, and for me, it basically functions as a thought-terminating statement. Because, if we responded to every crime by blandly noting that other people might also want to commit the same crime, then we don't get any further with understanding why this particular crime happened.

It's like if I got burgled and called the rozzers and they looked aorund at my shattered living room and said, "I absolutely agree that you've been burgeled Mrs M. But there are bigger pockets of people from EVERY background who want to steal things." It's like yes thank you for that incredible insight but I want you to look at the details of MY burglary.

I also don't think that watching the same telly as me or going to the same school as my kids means that a person necessarily has the same cultural and moral mindframe as decent, law abiding people in an advanced Western democracy. I mean, Fred West loved Corrie, you know? Does loving Corrie mean Fred West and I operate with the same moral and cultural code? Nah. I don't think so.

It's like the foundations of understanding a particular criminal pattern is profiling, you start with Motive, Means & Opportunity. So in the case of the child rape gangs I would suggest Motive - culturally inspired misogyny, the culture of rural Pakistan is very different to ours and I would say centuries behind where we have got to in our understanding of female autonomy (eg: we believe we should get justice for rape victims, not stone them for adultery). Means - like many immigrants (my own fam included) these guys picked jobs where it doesn't matter if your English isn't great - takeaways, cab firms, landlords. And these jobs can not only become closed shops within communities, but they also provide the means - you use your cab to ferry your victim around, you bribe them with food, you rape them in your cousin's rental house. Opportunity - they were flagrantly operating under the noses of police and SS who it appears blamed the victims and let the guys get on with it.

See this is why we need to look at these crimes in detail so that we end up with a decent profile of behaviours that can be used to stop the next rape gang ring. I just feel it's more productive to do that then just kind of throw up our hands and go "Welp, what we gonna do, bigger pockets of men from EVERY background probably want to rape and sexually torture children."

 

[MaineCoonMama]

The fireworks and London being 'inclusive' and for everyone - why can't we just have fireworks and Happy New year without any wokey or be kind messages.

Aren't they inclusive anyway? Most people can see or hear them, I've never seen one display that says 'This is for heterosexual people only' or 'Just for 18-35s.'

Perhaps I need to train as a firework tech so this year I can set off a big fat TERF one in suffragette colours over the Melbourne skyline.

 

[moldwarp]

I must say I love your input to this thread, Moldwarp. Your posts add to what is already a thought provoking and informative thread for me.
I like everyone who adds to the discussion except for Pete the Man and that Irish person who worked in a hospital and knew hundreds of trans who had suicidal tendencies but were lovely. Anyone remember them?

Spoiler: OT MaineCoonMama

aw I love your input too MCM. You were funny as fuck on the Jack Monroe threads and you're insightful as fuck on these threads! Seriously the Jack threads were so awesome back in lockdown, so many highly intelligent witty people on that thread, I swear I was crying with laughter at times. I sometimes think about going back on them but she's probably not as funny/horrendous as she used to be. I kind of think I've said all I've got to say about her anyway, when you run out of decent input you gotta move on innit

---

Looking back on this now I remember how I trained myself to ignore my ick. At the time I did feel uncomfortable but told myself repeatedly that I shouldn't be feeling that way because she was vulnerable and marginalised and I should learn not to be such a horrible person. Girls and women are constantly being told to override their instincts in this respect. It's dangerous, we have these instincts for a reason and should always listen to them.

Oh my god THIS. The Ick must ALWAYS BE HEEDED. It's our amygdala (the part of the brain that's old old old, waaaay older than homo sapients, olders than most current mammals) telling us to avoid a certain person as they may be dangerous or infectious.

The reason I KNOW the trans movement is a predators' charter is because in the early days TRAs spent a LOT of time explicitly urging us to ignore The Ick, otherwise we'd be bigots. From Laurie Penny justifying nude men in female changing rooms around little girls, to increasingly hysterical reassurances that 'girl-dique' is honestly nothing like a man's penis, it has ALWAYS been about cheating us out of our boundaries by telling us that our amygdala is the source of bigotry, as opposed to the source of our survival.

TLDR: DON'T IGNORE YA LIZARD BRAIN

 

[Metropolis]

Did James Lee Williams actually think he was a woman though? I have to say I find all the tributes to him rather odd because they are mourning the character he played not him.... I find it quite sad tbh

These are my thoughts too. By all accounts, he was a kind and generous person, but a lot of people are paying tribute to a character he played for his job, rather than focusing on the man himself. There was none of this they/them conflation when Paul O’Grady died. I fail to understand why so many outlets are referring to him as they/them. He was a man who dressed up for his career. I hate what gender ideology is doing to language and all these made-up pronouns people are being forced into using for fear of saying the ‘wrong’ thing.

 

[Em_gardener]

Mark Zuckerberg has ordered that tampons be removed from the men's bathrooms at Meta. I've never been so convinced that trans is over. It'll end in America first and we'll all follow like we all followed them down this road in the first place. It's still going to take ages though.

He's giving up on DEI as well and has removed the trans and non-binary themes from messenger.

Inside Mark Zuckerberg’s Sprint to Remake Meta for the Trump Era - Th…

archived 11 Jan 2025 17:23:50 UTC

archive.ph

 

[Metropolis]

Blardy hell

 

[Dinate]

So just one day off, and the fight continues: Sex Matters is seeking a judicial review of the British Transport Police policy which allows transgender women with a GRC to conduct strip-searches of women. The grounds of the review is that forcing women to be searched by biological men is degrading and humiliating and therefore in breach of women's human rights. The national police had a similar policy which they withdrew after the previous government voiced concerns about women's safety. At the moment, nationally police forces are using their own individual guidance:

British Transport Police sued over guidance that allows transgender o…

archived 26 Dec 2024 20:22:35 UTC

archive.ph

I don't know what the timeframe of the judicial review is. If the SC 'What is a woman?' judgment is out before the review, then I would expect the judicial review will follow the its direction.

One thing that strikes me is that these transgender women claim to feel like women, yet their actions are the complete opposite of how real women act or feel. I don't know any woman who would want to put her feelings above the comfort and dignity of another woman. So, if I knew that someone would be uncomfortable with me searching them, even if I didn't agree with their reason or think that they had anything to fear from me, I doubt that I would impose my so-called right to search them over their own feelings of unease. Men, generally don't think like that. If it's their right to do something, then they'll do it no matter how the other person feels.

 

[Lynn’ssnazzycardigan]

I don’t think transitioning should ever be done even on these people because as soon as you have exceptions or grey areas then it can be exploited. A firm line protects women and girls which is far far more important than making a few people feel better.

This is where my brain runs in circles and why I need this thread! I sometimes think “oh well if it makes him feel better and he’s not hurting anyone else then let him get fake boobs and wander round in a dress”. Then I get to “yes but I don’t want him in my female spaces, do I just trust him to be content with using the men’s? Oh what if he gets beat up for going in there?” And this is me assuming he’s one of the old style transsexuals who I always pitied and had some admiration of their “courage”, me being too naive to know what a predatory AGP was. And why am I doing all these mental gymnastics to spare the feelings of some hypothetical bloke who doesn’t give a shit about me or my daughter’s/sister’s/mother’s safety?
No. I’m not having it, it’s not my job to judge who is a “genuine” case and nor is it any other woman’s. Nobody is born in the wrong body and of course I feel sorry for anyone uncomfortable in their own skin but it’s absolute madness to suggest we go along with someone’s delusions (or perverse desires) and give away our safety and rights just so they don’t get hurty feelings. It’s not ethical or right to enable someone with a mental illness to mutilate their body in the false belief it will cure their unhappiness.

 

[TheMiceInTheShed]

Do you think they might be scared/nervous/resigned to it? I hope not , but it surprises me as well.........
2 of our friends have zero interest in addressing anything & won't talk about it. (One has a very domineering husband ..)

I think many, if not most, women have no idea how very dangerous this all is.

We can all see it's nonsense, and most women think that because it is nonsense it won't get anywhere. They have no idea how insidious this cult is and powerful these men are. Women are swept up in the everyday - feeding children, keeping them warm and clean, looking after elderly relatives and sorting out the things that have to be done everyday as well as working - just keeping the world going round, really. They don't see that these dreadful changes have occurred because they have been so distracted with looking after everybody else.

The women who have seen, and are fighting it, aren't given the publicity they should be. Government organisations are going along with it - breaking the law to do so a lot of the time - and making sure that women's protests aren't publicised, or where they are that it is done in a way to bully and terrify women.

In this conspiracy, we are fighting powerful men, perverted men, big business, governments departments and "Pick me, I'm not like the others" women, as well as sheer self-promoting idiots who will do anything for attention and don't care who gets hurt, even when those are little children.

It's fighting a dragon with a broken sword and a buckled shield - but we have to do it.

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

I was just having a nose at the early gender discussion threads on this forum (before I was on Tattle) and was amused to see that the very first post in the first thread was by a handmaiden. It was heartening to recognise a number of names that have been on here from the beginning. I used to post all my terfery on Mumsnet back in the day, but became increasingly frustrated by the moderation and the compelled use of pronouns. So glad I found this place!
View attachment 3359147

Ah, the good ole "do your research" response well guess what, we all have and can confirm the fucking obvious.

 

[Tofino]

Arghhhh so sick of people downplaying the sex by deception issue with the recent case of the TIM being attacked.

Nobody disputes the stabbing attack was wrong, or that the non-consensual filming of the blow job is wrong. But the utter inability to accept that lying about your sex in the bedroom is also wrong is infuriating. But they can’t concede it because it would mean they have to admit biological sex matters.

 

[moldwarp]

This has always been puzzling to me. At work over the years I've noticed men's words are always given more credence and respect than suggestions made by women. I have a colleague who despite being an out and proud lesbian is the same - she listens to men more than other women. Are women just conditioned from an early age to think of men as leaders

Yes, we're conditioned, not only by our families but also by books, music, literature, everything. So deeply conditioned in fact that the vast majority of women go through their whole lives without realising how deeply conditioned they are. Even women who believe themselves to be feminists (hi, Emma Watson!).

I'm a biological essentialist in a lot of ways because, despite the West's smug belief in its own historic progress, our brain and body make up are exactly what they were since homo erectus and homo neanderthalis peaced out of the party and left homo sapiens the lucky winner. And scientific studies do show that testosterone does make a person more comfortable with taking big risks, and less able to make a plan b, or spot little details which might put a dent in plan a. Oestrogen on the other hand make a person more likely to be details focussed, to be more verbally dextrous, to persuade rather than use force (women are better with language and self expression than men, typically) and to spot risk. And you can see how these differing skillsets would help A LOT back when we were living in caves or subsistence farming, and for a good while afterwards, too.

That's why studies of the performance of FTSE 100 companies over the last 15 years show that the best performers have a Board made up equally of men and women, or with a slight pre-ponderance of women. Because the guys are more likely to go "Hell yeah, let's make that massive acquisition and expand further in Europe!" and the women will go "Ok, that COULD work, but we've got to make sure we don't overpay for the acquisition and by the way here are the risks to expanding in Europe, not saying we shouldn't do it but let's just make sure we've got a good plan b if it all goes tits up" and so between them, the company performs well.

So I do think men and women are different, I also happen to strongly believe that women are superior to men in most ways apart from physical strength and being violent selfish twats, although I appreciate that's maybe a bit more subjective. I just think that centuries of being conditioned to pander to and mollify the man at all times isn't just going to vanish in a couple of generations. Not least because, when it comes down to it, our lizard brains are hyper-aware that men can get their way over us by force. And frequently do.

 

[Mismatched Pegs]

Goddess Bless Julie Bindel who was writing about this since 2017 but otherwise....crickets from the Pick Me feminists like Caitlin Moran, Jess Philips, Victoria Coren all them.

Julie Bindel first wrote about it back in 2006 (published in the Sunday Times 2007 - Guardian wouldn't touch it because they'd be "seen as racist") Her name was added to the Islamaphobia Watch website for her troubles.

ETA we really need a yawn or eye roll emoji for whenever another bloke in a frock pontificates on how vulnerable and marginalised they are whilst on the world fucking stage clinging into a shiny trophy.

 

[moldwarp]

I mean, fuck me but none of them pass. The girls, their beards never grow in properly because they don't have the right sort of hair follicles, so it just looks like disparate, flyaway bum fluff, like the fake beard I shoddily constructed in a panic for my son when he played King Herod in his primary school nativity play in 2002. The guys, well the less said about them the better. As a very wise woman (well, Shakira) said, Hips don't lie. And nor do brow bones. Or philtrums. Or shoulders. Or feet. Or hands. Or, or, or....

 

[nothanksbabes]

Spoke to my son earlier who’s at uni doing politics. This semester, he has to do a compulsory module on Critical Race Theory. I pointed out it would be good to hear different points of view and he said, “no mum, the way they’re teaching it is that you can’t disagree or challenge it. The essay titles are written as if it’s an accepted fact so nothing is open to interpretation.” I can’t see how that works as it’s a theory or an ideology just like Marxism and of course you should be free to critique it, but apparently not.

In today’s lecture the students were told that feminism is a failed concept because it was ‘invented by white women’. No debate. Of course, feminism fails if it is not inclusive of women from all backgrounds and the reasons why non-white women feel excluded should absolutely be examined and the issues thrashed out. But just to make a statement as this lecturer did that ‘feminism can’t succeed’ is ridiculous. My son also said that the students had to vote anonymously as to whether they agreed with the concept of identity politics and only a third voted that they didn’t agree .

My favourite thing about critical race theory is how fucking racist it is. "Feminism was invented by white women" is an outrageously racist statement that erases the vast and varied history of the fight for women's rights globally.

But of course, they wouldn't want to acknowledge that the feminism of the majority of the non-Western women is radical feminism, and everyone knows that women as a class are oppressed based on the material reality of their sex. Very transphobic.

 

[Metropolis]

I was just having a nose at the early gender discussion threads on this forum (before I was on Tattle) and was amused to see that the very first post in the first thread was by a handmaiden. It was heartening to recognise a number of names that have been on here from the beginning. I used to post all my terfery on Mumsnet back in the day, but became increasingly frustrated by the moderation and the compelled use of pronouns. So glad I found this place!

 

[Ilovemusic]

I remember reading a post some time ago on the gender thread (sorry, can't remember poster's name) who wrote how angry she was about a male Tesco employee dressed inappropriately (think...fetish "dog collar" etc.). Poster said she complained to the Tesco manager, calmly gave her reasons why such clothing was disrespectful to customers, particularly women.
Speak up, change the narrative.

Quoting myself to add that I found the post I was referring to, thread #64 post #942 by "bluecups", hope they don't mind the repost...

"I made a complaint last week about an employee at my local tesco. I'd noticed for a while that this fella who moves trolleys around in the car park had started wearing makeup, earrings and skin tight leggings. I find 'womanface' extremely offensive, this man's interpretation of femininity was - as it always is with these freaks - a grotesque hyper-sexualised caricature of womanhood; no woman tesco workers wear Pat Butcher earrings, red lippy and skin tight leggings. Heard from a few people that this man is 'transitioning'

Anyway, last week I saw him in the car park wearing a pale pink thick bondage collar with studs and a huge heart shaped padlock and was livid. So I went and saw the manager and pointed out that this man was clearly a transvestite who was getting his jollies by wearing bondage gear to work. I stated that it was wildly inappropriate, what about when little kids ask "Mummy, why is that man wearing a pink dog collar?" and that I, as a customer, should not be aware of what kind of bedroom kinks their employees have. They wouldn't tolerate this from any other employee. This bloke was just taking the piss because he knew he is now a 'protected class'. I said if I ever see this again I would contact head office.

I have since seen this pervert at work a few times and not once has he been wearing his gi mp collar! It's a small victory but it felt good. I'm keeping an eye on this degenerate."

 

[Funny_bunny]

Here's a little rundown of Sarah:

Playing to the Gallery: The Sarah Jane Baker Verdict

Sarah Jane Baker has been cleared of inciting violence against women.

grahamlinehan.substack.com

It’s absolutely disgusting that any group claiming to represent women would want a vile misogynistic violent arsehole like him anywhere near and not only that, but state they want to continue working with him.
As for all this “trans rights are human rights”, well what rights haven’t they got, seeing as being a TIM seems to be a get out clause for virtually anything and everything,
What about the rights of women? Women aren't allowed anything because of all this gender nonsense. This nasty individual threatens violence against women and supports sex work ( I hate the the way that a lot of things now have the positive twist of “empowerment” when it’s exploitation that MEN are benefitting from but that’s another discussion.) Why has anything that’s for women got to be turned in another opportunity for some TIM to turn the spotlight on to them and make it all about the poor, oppressed trans.

 

[moldwarp]

Reading that article... I actually agree with what he said. I think he's asking the right questions, the questions that will bring about actual change and less future victims. And it brings it a bit back on topic here because I think it really is, first and foremost, about male power and opportunity to abuse. I think we only have to look at the case of Gisele Pelicot to see that a shockingly high percentage of men, when given the opportunity to abuse vulnerable women, will. Men are a huge danger to women and our social care system does not do enough to protect young women from male abuse. We have to look at the care system and how it is depriving young women of both protection and having their basic needs for food, social interaction and comfort, and how the safeguarding failed to where these evil men had private access to vulnerable children. That's the real travesty.

Because of that, I don't think we can narrow down the sole reason behind the rape gangs to 'they were muslim'. The abusers were men, with easy access to vulnerable children and ample desired resources (food, socialisation, etc). That is a scenario that has been repeated again and again, and transcends ethnicity/religion specifically. The media wants an easy, one-factor answer to drive clickbait with simple finger pointing, and 'they're Muslims' fits the bill. But it does a disservice to the victims because it doesn't even touch on how we would begin to eradicate such gangs, which is a much more complex issue entirely.

As I've said before, I honestly don't think Islam the religion per se comes into it much at all. Culture, sure. The sad fact is that there's really only a very small handful of cultures in the world where women can be said to have any sort of parity with men in terms of freedoms and bodily autonomy. Rural Pakistan is particularly backward on this front. So if you think about it you have these men, they come from towns and villages where adolescent girls are guarded fiercely by their male relatives and rarely allowed out, then they get here, they maybe watch online porn (most women in online porn being white or far east Asian), they consume pop and media culture, they're probably racist too in the way they regard white women, and bam there you go.

Men are shits and to my mind all men are potential rapists. What you have here is large groups of men who really hated and despised white women and also wanted to sexually torture them to get their kicks. But I think the reason it became so big and terrible was because the organisations meant to protect these girls looked the other way. You can't have mass abuse without enablers.

Let's not forget that these same groups of men tried this shit on Sikh girls in the 1970s in Birmingham and there were full scale ethnic conflicts bwteen Sikhs and Muslims as a result. So they switched to white girls and were a lot more successful in their vile activities because no one was bothering to protect those girls.