Gender Discussion #71

[PryingPenny]

I agree that the root cause of violence against woman and girls is men. I don’t see trans women as men and I don’t agree with letting men into women’s spaces.

I've been trying to read your comments with an open mind, and I've found some of your points interesting and I agree there are some (very rare and complicated) situations where it may be necessary to extend compassion and respect to people who have XY chromosomes to allow them to access safe spaces for them.

The danger with applying this to all people who call themselves trans women is we don't actually have a definition of what makes someone a 'real trans woman' as it appears to be something that can be defined by the individual, based on whether they feel like a woman or not. I accept there are some people who feel their bodies are 'wrong' but I don't think the solution is surgery. I feel as though my 40 something body doesn't reflect who am internally, but what I need to do is accept that aging and over indulging in snacks and under exercising is the cause of my own issues. Therapy, including someone who is willing to say "what does being a woman actually mean?" is a helpful first step, and I don't really care if a man wants to wear more feminine clothes or even call themselves something new, but I won't affirm that they are a woman, even if they have surgery or take hormonal treatments. I don't feel like a woman a lot of days, but I still am.

Using exceptional circumstances to define the rule for the majority is not helpful, and if only 1% of men are rapists and abusers then I don't want to allow any men into a space I am vulnerable, like a hospital or a toilet. I'm not prepared to be in a bathroom with someone who has 'trans joy' or 'gender euphoria' using that space or, even worse, gets turned on by the whole idea. There are some very depraved people who have been mentioned on these threads who have manipulated 'kind people' to abuse women and children. If 1% of a bowl of sweets is deadly, I'm not going near the whole bowl, I'm not taking that chance.

 

[Tofino]

Sealioning came to mind. Intent on ‘disproving’ evidence presented to them and attempting to engage in discourse in an academic and highfalutin manner in order to provoke the ‘audience’. No point in arguing with them really, but I couldn’t sleep so . Anyway, a man can never know what it’s like to experience being a woman, so the whole argument is moot.

I don’t mind arguing sometimes because you never know who is lurking so even if the OP is being provocative, it can be helpful to others to not let their points go unchallenged. We’ve seen a number of tattlers have peaked whilst engaging with these thread. But yes I agree with the sea-lioning.

 

[Metropolis]

Funny how through written words alone we can still sometimes distinguish stupid robots and men from the women. It’s harder for sure but not impossible

Yes, I don’t think a woman would have responded thus:

 

[Tofino]

Yes, I don’t think a woman would have responded thus:
View attachment 3120338

Yes and I think the general tone (post stupid robot) was male entitlement/superiority/talking down to women rather than handmaiden / be kind / fawning.

Especially some of the early demands like ‘answer the question’ and the final responses that was an attempt to put me in my place.

oh and the insistence that men who have surgery and take hormones are indistinguishable from biological females. That’s a very TIM thing to say!

 

[PryingPenny]

Yes and I think the general tone (post stupid robot) was male entitlement/superiority/talking down to women rather than handmaiden / be kind / fawning.

Especially some of the early demands like ‘answer the question’ and the final responses that was an attempt to put me in my place.

oh and the insistence that men who have surgery and take hormones are indistinguishable from biological females. That’s a very TIM thing to say!

I do think there are women who would disagree with our views on this thread, and that's okay. I don't think we need to assume everyone who disagrees with us is a robot or a man

 

[Tui]

I think it’s being over complicated. And hijacked by ideologists for their own agenda. It’s not related to trans people because they don’t have DSDs.

The reason DSDs even exist is because we know the correct development of a human male = XY and for females it’s XX.

It only becomes complicated for a minority of individuals whose body did not develop properly and they can hopefully get the right treatment for them accordingly. I don’t see it that Hannah’s (TikTok) treatment has turned her into a biological female but due to her circumstances of being raised female from birth, lack of male puberty, early female puberty and she says externally she looks fully female, i have no issue with her going through life as a woman.

In situations like Caster and Imane, they have gone through male puberty which absolutely poses a risk to women and it’s very unfortunate if that excludes them from some things if they believe they are women due to the way they were raised (although in both those cases I think they fully accept they are male and are just using their situation as an advantage).


A male child that has no DSD but put on puberty blockers before puberty begins... I don’t know how they go on to develop as adults long term in every area but as with Hannah, it still doesn’t change the biological sex. And obviously in this scenario the far bigger risk is to the perfectly healthy child not being allowed to go through puberty its body was made for and needing medication for life. Along with potential long term healthcare risks. I dont know if the long term risk factors are the same but for a healthy male, it’s not essential. For a person with a DSD such as Hannah’s, it probably is. So the risk-benefit ratio is massively different.

I don’t think we should even entertain discussion of whether a boy who was put on PBs and not gone through male puberty is any different to Hannah and therefore not the same risk in women’s spaces/sports etc as someone who has gone through male puberty. It should be a hard no. Primarily to protect the child from harm.

Hope I’ve articulated that ok as I haven’t had a coffee yet

Yeah I do lose sympathy for these athletes when they learn they have a DSD which gives them an advantage, and compete anyway. Semenya revealed she found out at age 18 but still competed internationally for 7-8 years after that including Olympics. Khelif and Yu Ting the same, they entered the Olympics knowing they have a physical advantage which poses a danger to other athletes and did it anyway, it’s reckless and cheating tbh. A complete failure to take responsibility.
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Yes and I think the general tone (post stupid robot) was male entitlement/superiority/talking down to women rather than handmaiden / be kind / fawning.

Especially some of the early demands like ‘answer the question’ and the final responses that was an attempt to put me in my place.

oh and the insistence that men who have surgery and take hormones are indistinguishable from biological females. That’s a very TIM thing to say!

Definitely read like a bloke to me

 

[Tofino]

I do think there are women who would disagree with our views on this thread, and that's okay. I don't think we need to assume everyone who disagrees with us is a robot or a man

It’s not about the disagreement. I don’t usually assume everyone who disagrees with us is a man.

 

[Tui]

Yes, I don’t think a woman would have responded thus:
View attachment 3120338

Yep. One would say “another woman”

 

[Nelly's mum]

I am quite familiar with genetics research. Robert Winston is a clinician- read about his specific contributions to the published research, his expertise is not genetics.

And yours is? Do you think you know more about genetics than a professor with FMedSci, FRSA, FRCP, FRCOG and HonFREng after his name?

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

Yes, I don’t think a woman would have responded thus:
View attachment 3120338

Yup, that really confirmed that they were male. It's so obvious to us (women, real ones, with actual vaginas ) but they are so blind to their own male behavior and thinking.

 

[Blond3g1rl]

HRT has a significant impact on reducing or reversing many of the physical changes associated with male puberty. Estrogen and anti-androgens can lead to the development of breasts, a redistribution of body large to more typically female patterns, softening of the skin, and a reduction in muscle mass. Over time, these changes can significantly alter a trans woman’s appearance, making her look more typically female. This, along with bottom surgery, can make a ‘biological male’ appear indistinguishable from a ‘biological female’.

Last time I checked my tina didn’t secrete tit smelling liquid, need to be dilated or have hairs inside.

 

[Ilovemusic]

Well, that was some catch up! Who left the door open last night to those "sex-blind" posters? Did they stay out in the sun too long, got lost and wandered in here? Anyway, here's something for the newbies...

 

[TheMiceInTheShed]

But nobody would call someone with this condition a man and would never know they're male unless told. If someone is totally androgen insensitive, despite being male, then they do not pose the same risk to women as men do, having undergone no typical male development whatsoever.

It's irrelevant to both me and the transgender movement, there's nobody who wouldn't assume them female, including their parents and themselves, until puberty when they don't menstruate and are found to have a DSD, unless they have a medical issue that results in it being discovered earlier.

Total androgen insensitivity is a very rare condition within a rare condition.

And people who suffer it are certainly not going to be excelling in sports, either.
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Are they male? Yes. Would I refer to someone who was observed at birth to be female, raised as female, did not go through a male puberty, has no male secondary sex characteristics and zero sensitivity to testosterone as "a man" - no I wouldn't.

What point, exactly, do you think you're making?

Thank you - you put it better than I would have.

Plus - how do we know that this person IS male with a DSD? And not female.

We only have their word for it. A stranger. On the internet. Totally trustworthy source, obviously.

If they are (male with DSD), how did they discover this, and when, if they appear to be so obviously female in every respect except at the cellular level? And how have they proven their claim? Did they publish confirmed genetic test results, provenly theirs?

Just curious.
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Interesting. @JAR21 and @nothanksbabes would appear to disagree.
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So you think this person should use male changing spaces shared with those with penises?
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So would you say this person should use female or male changing spaces/toilet facilities?

Would you say that someone with a pen and/or who has undergone male puberty should be sharing females spaces/toilet facilities?

@Em_gardener
This condition is like the 1% of the 1%. It doesn't mean anything in the wider debate and it's really unfair on people with this condition to try and use them as a loophole to argue for other males to access women's spaces and facilities.

Particularly as organisations representing people with DSD's, and many individuals, have repeatedly requested not to be associated with trans, and not to be weaponised to justify a non-existent "sex spectrum".

There is a "spectrum" within each sex, but not one between the sexes. Sex is binary.
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Interesting. @JAR21 and @nothanksbabes would appear to disagree.
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So you think this person should use male changing spaces shared with those with penises?
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So would you say this person should use female or male changing spaces/toilet facilities?

Would you say that someone with a pen and/or who has undergone male puberty should be sharing females spaces/toilet facilities?

@Em_gardener
This condition is like the 1% of the 1%. It doesn't mean anything in the wider debate and it's really unfair on people with this condition to try and use them as a loophole to argue for other males to access women's spaces and facilities.

Particularly as organisations representing people with DSD's, and many individuals, have repeatedly requested not to be associated with trans, and not to be weaponised to justify a non-existent "sex spectrum".

There is a "spectrum" within each sex, but not one between the sexes. Sex is binary.

Just simply trying to understand an opposing POV.

Of course you are.
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Time to put these clowns to bed

I'll be pleased when the school holidays are over.

 

[VC10]

Start here, this person seems lovely

View attachment 3119989

A right bleeping bleep.

 

[Em_gardener]

Can I recommend this article from Nature, it’s relatively easy reading whilst explaining some quite complex scientific theory around the genetics of sex https://www.nature.com/articles/518288a

I think everyone is aware that there is a really tiny percentage of people for whom sex is complex. I just don't understand how you think this is relevant to trans people? An xy man whose sex has never been in question and who wants to become a woman is nothing like these cases.

You're free to believe that he can change into a woman if you want to but I see that as a quasi religious belief that I don't share and I don't think I should be obliged to pretend I do. I wouldn't make an issue of my beliefs around a trans person or upset them but it's a lie to say that people can change sex and I don't think it's good to see a lie being written into law or taught in schools as fact or used against women.

Even your own beliefs about the point at which a man becomes a woman is considered transphobic. None of the trans advocacy groups agree with what you say and all consider it offensive.

I'm also deeply suspicious about the huge increase in the number of teenage girls in particular who identify as the opposite sex and the Cass review was obviously hugely concerning. I don't agree with children transitioning and I think a lot of harm has been done in the name of trans rights.

 

[VC10]

I think we’re having two separate conversations here. You aren’t going to find so called ‘trans identified people’ who don’t stick up for trans rights, for the same reason you won’t find gay people who don’t believe in gay rights; it undermines their right to exist as human beings. It’s quite abhorrent that is something you want.
What you can find are trans people who would be willing to talk to you about your fears towards them to show they deserve kindness and compassion as human beings.
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And if you choose not to accept that, that’s your choice. But it won’t stop it from happening and all it’s doing is dragging down the feminist movement. Maybe have a think about what matters more to you- stopping male violence against women or fighting a loosing and unsubstantiated battle against the trans community.
p.s. I’m a les- nothing in my life involves pandering to men- you should try it!
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Thank you everyone for a good discussion, especially those that kept it civil! I know I’ve not changed anyone’s mind- that was never my intention. I simply wanted to point out that things aren’t always as simple as they seem. I think that’s been made quite clear by the fact that, even amongst yourselves, you can’t quite agree on a factor that determines sex in 100% of cases- is it possible it’s not as simple as we all assumed? Just some food for thought.

Hahahahahaaaaa, thanks for the laughs
Go and try somewhere else. Tattle isn't a wokey box-ticking forum full of friendly mods , like you're used to , we deal with scientific fact here .

 

[DottyP]

You can tell male entitlement a mile away. Of all the millions of places on the internet, there are maybe a handful where gender critical people can speak freely and truthfully. And wouldn't you know, they are always being invaded by men telling us we are unkind. These bleeping men not only want to control our speech, spaces, sports, they want to control our thoughts too. bleeps. Been dealing with male entitlement for far too many decades not to recognise it in an instant. I have been kind in the past. These days my kindness is for women and girls losing spaces, sports and language. Men do not deserve any woman's kindness, they have the whole world looking out for them.

 

[soph30]

I was groped on a busy train last night. I’ve just gone to pick up my dry cleaning and a bloke screamed something sexual at me on the street and then that he was going to follow me. I’ve got an appointment today about fibroids where I’m basically going to be given a choice; remove my whole uterus, cut my stomach open or have radiotherapy that may affect my fertility and raises my risk of cancer.
This is all in the space of 24 hours.
It just makes me furious that men can put on a dress, say they feel pretty like a woman and they’ve always felt this way, and that they belong in my spaces, with absolutely no idea of the lived experiences of women To be honest being a woman would probably be quite fun and sunshine and roses if only the positives were focused on. Which is what these men are doing.

 

[MaineCoonMama]

@oned44 What did you mean by "I'm a les, you should try it?"
Such a strange thing to say. You may or may not be a les but you're sure as duck pandering to men, in my opinion.

FUI The word is losing, not loosing.

 

[Em_gardener]