Gender Discussion #69

[usefullyuseless]

Welcome to Terfville.

Women are women. Men are men. You can't change your sex. Lesbians don't want penis. Gay men don't want vagina. It's really that simple.

We've just witnessed an apparent man strike a woman in Olympic boxing, broadcast as sport into millions of homes. WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE.

 

[MmmB777]

In tears too. God it was worse than I could have imagined. I keep thinking of her in the old interview, how much her late farther inspired her and I see she’s just said “I wanted to be a warrior for my father but I was in too much pain”. Unbearable. I am glad he is not here to see it.
Shame on everyone involved. Shame on that cheating fucking bastard. Shame on the men that won’t speak up. Shame on every fucking transmaiden for selling out their sisters to have their faces broken by men.

 

[MmmB777]

But we can’t just go around calling butch females male because they present as such. I agree it’s very fishy though.

As someone that was brought up around amazing butch lesbian friends of my mother, in the gay rights/left wing (when they weren’t mental) movements, I find it absolutely fucking insulting that I’m accused of being prejudice against women that are butch.

Gender nonconformity is awesome. What you wear or your haircut does not change your sexed body. It’s not our movement that would happily tell a young butch girl that she’s born wrong and would be better off medicalised and living a lie her whole life.

We are a group of women on this thread that put the rights, dignity, fairness, safety, opportunities, achievements of WOMEN above all else. We might have differing views in many other ways but this issue unites us.
To accuse any of us of not respecting women just cos they might have short hair or “masculine” clothes is a total insult to our intelligence and integrity.
If these were butch women there’d be no fucking issue but butch women don’t fail sex testing.

Categorising butch women and black women like washed up nobody Mark Steel has just done, in with fucking MEN is an absolute insult to those women. Men aren't another type of woman.

Get off your knees.

 

[VeniVidiVicki]

Imane Khalif was born female. Presumably with all the genitalia and body parts and functions that go with someone who has that has that on their birth certificate. She is not transgender, she's literally from a country were she'd be locked up in prison if she was.

Two cisgender women took part in a boxing match and people have lost their minds because they feel one of them looks man-ish.

Khelif was born with ambiguous genitalia. No one has said he’s transgender. We have said he’s a man with a DSD.

If you’re going to plop on a thread, at least have the respect to read it first. Otherwise you can just fuck off for being rude.

 

[Em_gardener]

Nicola Adams has spoken out now. Go Nicola!

 

[MmmB777]

Not sure I’m going to express this properly but here goes..
I think the treatment of these boys with ambiguous/underdeveloped genitalia is in itself misogynistic.
Women don’t equal…lacking. We are not just men that are lacking. Why does our biology truly mean nothing. Our unique health experiences and our biological material reality mean nothing. Don’t have a penis? Oh you can just be a women then.

I’ve just been rereading about Sophie Ottaway who was born male with disfigured genitalia. They took away the male genitals (including perfectly healthy testes) and fashioned a hole. Sophie describes the “vagina” as plopping out in the nappy. The doctors put it back inside the baby and then sealed the hole shut. Sophie in adult life then had brown ooze and suffered sepsis. The medical pathway they put Sophie on affected their whole life.

Putting a hole into a person = female. What can that hole do? Well nothing except nearly kill you in this case. To me it means that women are really just seen as a receptacle for a penis. You’re a hole. That’s the function that makes you a woman apparently.

I don’t know why some women can’t see that this isn’t a fight for “bathrooms and sports” (as Rob Delaney mockingly labelled it) it is a fight for our material reality and a place in the world where we are not just humans that are lacking being men. Our reality as women means something. Not a thought in a man’s head. Not a hole. Not the absence of male. Not something obtained by outfits or haircuts. Not being constantly told to make our space, reality and existence in this World smaller and smaller.

 

[KerGlr5]

I'm also getting annoyed at all the references to 'gender tests.' It's sex. Biological Sex.

 

[Tofino]

A simple cheek swab can protect female boxers

The IOC’s dangerous and misogynistic ideas about gender inclusion are to blame for the humiliation of Angela Carini

www.thetimes.com

This is a really good article.

I hadn’t realised this

But at the 1996 Atlanta Games an IOC questionnaire asked female athletes if the cheek swab should continue (82 per cent said yes) and whether it made them “anxious” (94 per cent said no). Nonetheless the IOC ignored almost 1,000 elite women who replied and abolished cheek swabs for Sydney in 2000.

Tells you everything you need to know about the IOCs respect for women in sport.

Oh and just a reminder whilst people try to discredit the IBA and want to blindly trust the IOC. The IOC are the ones that have allowed a convicted paedophile sex offender to compete in their Olympic Games this year. Think again about their ethics and integrity and willingness to protect other competitors. A number of Olympic athletes this year are children.

 

[Tofino]

Do you know what I think is the biggest indicator that Khelif is a man?

That none of these people, none of them, would defend and speak up for a biological woman in the way they are for him.

They know exactly who he is.

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

For those who watched it, did the commentators refer to the male boxer as "she"?

Also, I wonder which changing rooms and showers he used?

I'm so, so angry

They did. On my coverage the female commentator did the whole "emotions are high" as an excuse for Angela not congratulating the man and refusing to look at him afterwards. Us women and our unreasonable "emotions"

 

[Status:PiningTheBog]

"We don't give the slightest shit about women"? Just a guess.

Sharron Davies is rightly kicking off on X. Good for her.

 

[DoraMaar]

Apologies if this has been posted already - it's Dr Emma Hilton (@FondOfBeetles on X) who is an expert (has written papers and advised governing bodies) on this topic

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

It just feels like nobody gives a fuck about the safety of women. It's so disheartening to see something you think is wrong and to speak up and say something only to be dismissed and mocked as being a bigoted pearl clutcher.

I just feel like I'm being told to shut up like I was when I tried to tell people about the abuse I was suffering at home. Like I'm the one shattering everyones illusions of a fantasy and they resent me for it.

 

[SkippyDoo]

This was entirely predictable. Would anyone else like to come into this thread and tell me it’s a matter of debate what male and female are and up to the IOC?

No male athletes in women’s sports, no exceptions. That includes XY individuals with DSDs, who are still male. We know they are being actively scouted because they can beat women since they’re male. The IBA has already called this out.

 

[Tofino]

Imane Khalif was born female. Presumably with all the genitalia and body parts and functions that go with someone who has that has that on their birth certificate. She is not transgender, she's literally from a country were she'd be locked up in prison if she was.

Two cisgender women took part in a boxing match and people have lost their minds because they feel one of them looks man-ish leading to reports from a dubious source that she was tested and found to have XY chromosomes and a slightly higher level of testosterone than average for a woman...none of which makes her a man anyway.

A man whose dick and balls didn’t develop in properly in utero is still a man. Why are you struggling to understand this basic concept?
---

It just feels like nobody gives a fuck about the safety of women. It's so disheartening to see something you think is wrong and to speak up and say something only to be dismissed and mocked as being a bigoted pearl clutcher.

I just feel like I'm being told to shut up like I was when I tried to tell people about the abuse I was suffering at home. Like I'm the one shattering everyones illusions of a fantasy and they resent me for it.

It has been really frustrating especially those that are deliberately being obtuse and ignoring facts like we have seen on here. However the reason I think this topic has exploded this week is because they are panicking at the amount of people that have come out and said this is wrong. Look at the amount of likes the posts from JKR, Riley Gaines et al have had. Far, far more than their average posts. FairPlay for women said they gained 10,000 followers overnight.

This isn’t a trans issue but the TRAs have to fight this to the death because if people realise this is wrong, the penny starts to drop about biological males in other women’s spaces. That trans women will never be women. This will have peaked a lot of people. It was sport that peaked me (Rachel McKinnon) I never thought TWAW, I was rather oblivious to the whole concept of gender ideology. But seeing a man was allowed to compete against women was just so wrong to me it sent me down a rabbit hole and the rest is history. I’m sure there will be people going down this rabbit hole right now because of the boxing.

The news reporters are making me angry because they are complicit in spreading misinformation. IOC are making me incredibly angry too because all I’m seeing is wealthy men getting angry that women dare question them. They feel undermined right now and I almost feel like their response to people (women) who dare speak up about this is like they have flown into narcissistic rage. Now posting videos about online abuse in boxing? They can fuck off.

When do these same people fighting so hard for these boxers ever stand up and defend biological women in the same way?

 

[nothanksbabes]

This just came up in conversation and I explained DSDs and somehow I'm still wrong. And the person I had this conversation with is my boyfriend's boss (he brought it up, I have no desire to share my opinion on this generally, I'm fucking knackered and off work sick already) so I'm automatically wrong for not just sitting back and ignoring it.

It doesn't matter how calmly women present the facts, we're always aggro and we're always required to defend ourselves. It's so fucking disheartening.

I told my fella if he doesn't want a woman who stands up for her (well evidenced) beliefs he can fuck off aswell. I'll be a "man hater" with my cats and books before I'm someone with no integrity.

 

[VielleFemme]

I made the mistake of reading the thread about this on r/Olympics on Reddit. A bunch of men gloating about a man beating the crap out of a woman in public. So so so so angry right now.

 

[maytoseptember]

whispers I still don't understand why people are calling her a man with a DSD rather than a woman with a DSD
but this thread gives me the fear and I don't want to start anything

Mate, are you being deliberately obtuse, over and over, on purpose?

If Khelif has XY chromosomes, then they are a male with a DSD. It doesn’t matter that Khelif was wrongly assigned female at birth. It doesn’t matter what Khelif identifies as. It’s not about “be kind” or trans issues or anything.

In matters of fairness and safety and basic scientific fact, if Khelif has XY chromosomes then he’s a male with a DSD. Not a female with a DSD.

Do you follow? Genuine question, not being sarcastic.

 

[ilovedogss]

In a world where violence against women is so high, we now have a biological male beating up a woman on live tv, all in the name of inclusivity. A woman could literally be killed, as long as we dont hurt their feelings.

 

[MaineCoonMama]

Today I outed myself as a Terf on Facebook. It went quite well, all things considered. I normally post about bears, Maine Coons and what book I'm reading but today felt like the day to strike while the iron is hot.
The lone dissenting comment was a man mansplaining things to me, natch. They just can't help themselves.