Gender Discussion #45

[Ensay]

There are so many countries that vote in Eurovision (a lot more than compete) and people of all ages will vote. There's no way most of them knew or remembered about what Ireland's entry said or did.

Because The internet exists. How do you think the crowd funding cases of Maya Forstater, Kathleen Stock and Judie Bindel managed to raise and exceed their asking amounts so quickly from people worldwide, and not just from people in their representative countries , but globally, and help each woman win and be financially compensated to be taken to court?

Similar to the “silent Tories” argument that’s associated specifically in this country and trotted out as a reason after a labour loss

And how many people donated to those causes as a percentage of the world population? It's tiny.

I just don't think enough people would remember about what Ireland's Eurovision entry said or did enough for it to affect their score. They're just not well known enough. And, even if they remembered, I don't think people would say "I love this song, but these guys sacked their manager, so sod them" in enough numbers that it would change anything.

I'd love to do a straw poll to ask random Eurovision viewers about Ireland's entry - I can promise you most people would give you a blank look and would say "which ones were they again?"

 

[HockyRorror]

They're not being outed as anything though - they're just being asked to share their opinion on a topical issue in women's sports because they are female sports stars.

By outed I meant in regard to gay people being outed online or questioning their sexuality and getting tagged online. Serena Williams is a global sports star , the face behind many sponsorships and programs from multi-million dollar companies. JK Rowling is largely independent from criticism being non-sponsorshipped and self made and has recieved loads of backlash. Serena’s current sponsors (amongst many) include Anheuser-Busch (aka Bud Lite) and Nike.

 

[Notworthy]

I was planning to go to Hyde Park on Sunday but it looks like there isn't an event, is that right

 

[Tea_and_Biscuits]

Sorry for going on, but I love Eurovision

Me too!
I've been listening to the entries the last couple of weeks and the Irish one was completely forgettable to me. There are some pretty decent entries this year (along with usual oddities!) and the Irish entry just didn't stand out

 

[Lonelylondon]

Indeed. Just to bring it back to the point of this thread, I think a trans woman advertising tampons and female sports bras is pointless and I fully understand the objection. A trans woman doesn't need tampons and doesn't have the same body structure as a woman, so doesn't need female sports bras.

But I couldn't give a flying fig who advertises a drink. I'll drink it if I like the taste, regardless of who's on the advert or packaging. I like drinking Pepsi Max and it's had footballers on it for the past God knows how long. I find football dull as dishwater, but I'm not gonna stop buying Pepsi Max just cause Lionel Messi is on the label. And they call us snowflakes...

And they’re the same people who are totally against cancel culture ‘people have free speech, and if someone says something you don’t like they shouldn’t be cancelled’ … but budlight uses someone they don’t like and so they must be cancelled… lol

 

[emmer_moans]

Oh, it's Pride month next month. When is it not??

It comes around quick

 

[HockyRorror]

Tess T Eccles surely isn’t real ? Testicles ?!

Lol, it is a jokey name - it’s an account highlighting TRA stuff but the video is very much real and was posted by one

 

[Ensay]

You’re ignoring the evidence of the man getting completely irate at the woman who “misgendered him”. You initially insinuated that she did something to deserve him being upset and called him a him to be inflammatory. Now you’ve been shown he clearly is desperate for a reason to get angry at people “misgendering”. He’s also been fired which he probably wouldn’t be if she’d used hate speech or been inflammatory. I’d say all the evidence suggests she said something simple referring correctly to his sex as male in one of the many reasonable and ordinary scenarios that have been given as examples here.

I'm not ignoring the evidence. Like I say, Starbucks was right to fire him, as his behaviour was completely unacceptable regardless of why it happened.

All I said was it'd be interesting to know what led to the confrontation, just for context. I didn't mean that it would justify the behaviour - because regardless of the reason - his behavour was way out of line.

To be honest, I still think it would have been right to fire him even if the customer had been transphobic, because if that happened then there are steps to follow - which would probably be to refuse service and escalate to a manager, who would then ask the customer to leave and call the Police if they refused.

 

[Ensay]

Didnt they get the trans male rapist contingency vote though?? I thought as they were advocating for it, they thought it a vote winner??? Or perhaps there isn’t a rallied vote for male rapists, not sure, sure this group has the answer though
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Something I wasn’t aware of and thought of how it would strike a blow into Riley’s campaign
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Not even from a point of personal dislike from the stories given beforehand, but I thought they were absolutely awful! Clearly trying to ride the coattails of (vocally talented) Sam Ryder, from the previous year, who the cameras clearly loved in every one of his stage presence performances, compared to a misogynistic older guy whose band refers to being boys (hello, Dylan M!) in an Ill-fitting suit, nasally vocals and a thin, weak performance.

I didn't even know about the trans rapist thing. Was it reported much outside of Ireland? I'd wager most voters had no idea or cared.

I know this is off topic, but I do think the music is the main thing at ESC. Yes, sometimes a stance might get a slight vote boost, but most people do vote based on the song and how good (or bad) it is.

 

[Ensay]

Transgenderism, in its current form, is homophobic.
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Agree with you, it would be a hard sell, but I would agree with a more firmer government that slapped bans on these surgeries for under 25 year olds. But don’t see how it would be practical, legally

I don't think it'd be legally practical either, given everything else you can legally do at age 18. Also it would presumably need to backed up by very strong evidence and I don't think any exists because everyone matures at different rates - age 25 wouldn't be 'correct' for everyone.

 

[Ensay]

“Phobic” can also refer to moral disgust; “homophobia” has never really exclusively referred to an irrational fear, but has instead been about disproportionate moral disgust. “Transphobia” in a form where I’d recognise it as such would be, for instance, men beating the shit out of a man who “identifies” as a woman on the basis that “men shouldn’t dress like that because it’s disgusting”.
Recognising that trans activism seeks to redefine women as a sense of self rather than a human sex category is absolutely not transphobia, nor is any organising around preserving the existing meaning of the word “women”
---
thinking aloud here, and without any judgement, the “inward laugh” at a man in lipstick is part of the societal context that creates trans identifying people, and creates the fetishistic interest in things considered inappropriate for one’s sex.
There’s really no reason for it to be the case that only women wear noticeable make up, and if society evolved in a way that both men and women wore similar make up for aesthetic reasons, it would be the case that dysphoria would probably emerge in a different cohort of males, around a different taboo.
And there’d still be two types of males with a predisposition to trans identity - 1: males who would gain a degree of sexual pleasure from knowing they are transgressing whatever gender norms existed in an alternative context, and 2: males who are naturally and reasonably inclined towards interests coded as being “for women”, who seek to individually gain a pass to participate, rather than pointing out that such barriers are bullshit

Good post! I particularly like how you dealt with the 'phobic' aspect as I've long tried to explain the difference between phobia being an irrational fear (eg in arachnophobia) and in distaste contexts (eg homophobic). In the past I've stuck to saying how hydrophobic molecules aren't 'scared' of water, but then it veers into scientific territory and I usually end up confusing people! I prefer your explanation so may nick that for future discussions.

I also agree regarding societal context. I've seen men with make up on before who are perfectly happy just being men and -- being honest -- I do sometimes give them a double take. I have that initial "that's wrong" feeling, but then quickly correct myself and think "if he wants to wear it, so what? He's not harming anyone". I feel a bit ashamed at that initial reaction, but it's come from all those years of social conditioning ("pink is for girls, blue is for boys", "make up is for girls, but never for boys" and so on). It's no wonder we have that reaction, as it's so hard to break the mindset when it's drilled into us over our formative years.

 

[Ensay]

Yet you dismiss everyone on here saying ‘yeah, he’s looking after me’ or similar because you know better.

I brought up the thing you said on the other thread to prove my overall point, not to discuss it. That’s why I brought it up here and not in the other thread.

I didn't dismiss it. I'm sure that can happen (pretty much any scenario is possible) I'm just going by the laws of averages.

And it's only my opinion; I'm not saying I'm 100% right, it's just my view. Surely that's the same for everyone here - ie everyone gives their view - yet not everyone gets criticised for just giving their opinion...

 

[HockyRorror]

Todays Unreported World on Channel 4 has just started, this weeks episode is about drag Queen ban in Tennessee. Despite being Channel 4 I’ve always felt Unreported World to be fair, and Krishnan introduced it beforehand saying the doc follows those on both sides so might be interesting
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I hear what you’re saying but I also think the Mail know exactly what they’re doing. They report things like ‘X, who identifies as a woman, is accused of flashing her penis’, usually accompanied by a photo of a very obvious bloke in a lopsided synthetic wig. It highlights the ridiculousness of it all while staying on the ‘right’ side of the line. It’s not sympathetic reporting in the way the Guardian or the Independent would do it.

They know exactly what they’re doing but only within the guidelines. If I was editor, I’d do my earlier suggestion, open the comments, and force them to confront it (and crumble as the huge public spotlight is turned on them) and then just flounce the rules and push it each time, knowing full well they know the public finds their stance absolutely ridiculous and any resistance would be met with ridicule and outcry.

Then that way, when outlets like the Guardian, Independent, Metro, etc, continue to report in their style of manner, despite having the shackles freed from them from ways of other press, it will show them up more for the lunatics they have in editorial.

 

[Phil Anne Throw Pee]

https://www.archive.is/oldest/https...aled-held-transgender-attempted-murderer.html

And of course he's Oxford educated. Why can't people see the massive overlap between mental health issues and transgenderism and what is going on in Oxford?

Is Oxford worse than anywhere else like Brighton? Genuine question. I lived in Oxford for 30 years and it didn't seem especially 'woke' and especially compared to other universities and academia generally.

 

[Vanelope]

would have been worse if it was a boy saying he was a girl… or vice versa

 

[Ensay]

The Wall Street Journal earlier this week - the Mulvaney episode has cost them a lot in the short-term (as has impacted on other brands owned by Anheuser-Busch)

Bud Light Maker Offers Distributors Free Beer, More Ad Spending After…

archived 3 May 2023 18:58:22 UTC

archive.ph

Thank you! Interesting article and I'm surprised it had that negative an impact, given a lot of boycotts tend to be short-lived once people have moved onto the next thing.

It also raises a good point that Bud Light 'backing down' will cause a boycott in the other direction - eg gay bars will stop stocking it.

Should have stuck to only using white straight people in their ads...

 

[Ensay]

Budweiser has been using black people in their advertising for at least 50 years and it hasn't caused them to lose billions in stock value or forced them to place the vice president of the brand on permanent leave.

It can't be assumed that anyone who opposes gender ideology is automatically conservative, white, racist, straight, or homophobic. Many of the people in this thread, including myself, are life-long liberals, there are many lesbians who post here, and I'm sure that there are plenty of people in this thread who aren't white...but nearly everyone here opposes gender ideology.

We don't want to see a man who got famous from stereotyping, mocking, and insulting women advertising to us.

We don't want to see a man being financially rewarded for promoting a dangerous, regressive, sexist, and homophobic ideology.

And just because we oppose those things does not mean that we only want to see straight, white people in our ads. (And besides Dylan is white.)

I think you've read far too much into my comment!

The part you've quoted wasn't meant to be taken completely literally; it was a tongue in cheek way of saying if they'd stuck to advertising to the majority, then they'd have been fine.

I didn't say "anyone who opposes gender ideology is automatically conservative, white, racist, straight, or homophobic". I've even said that I completely understand the backlash Nike got for featuring DM in their ads. After all, using a trans woman to promote female clothing seems nonsensical to me.

That said, I didn't fully understand the backlash to a beer brand using a trans woman because beer is clearly intended to be consumed by anyone of legal drinking age - regardless of sex or gender. I was largely referring to the backlash we saw from men - eg TikToks of blokes with guns shooting at cans of Bud Light - which I felt was a disproportionate reaction and used what I felt was violent undertones. Of course boycott a brand if you want, though. I've boycotted a brand for at least 10 years over a stance they took and don't see that changing any time soon.

 

[Ensay]

Seen on twitter

He makes the mistake of muddying the waters with the abortion aspects. Most people aren't too bothered about that, it's the sexual reassignment surgery for minors that's the problem.

I tried reading the actual Bill (as I don't trust Andy Ngo not to put his own spin on it) but the site has crashed. I expect lots of others are trying to do the same thing!

 

[Ensay]

Is it? Could you explain then the reason for the downfall of Nicola Sturgeon and Jacinda Arden, both supremely popular before they stuck their pin into the TWAW side and had their long lasting legacies very publicly landslide?

Brexit wasn’t ever meant to have happened, poll wise, remember.

I think the main reason was people got sick of them. It happens with pretty much any politician eventually. In England at least the pendulum swings backwards and forwards between a Labour and Tory government.

People vote for a different party because they get tired of the incumbent. Then, when things don't improve much, they say "meh I'm gonna give the other lot a chance now", so vote the other way. And so it continues.

But, with respect, politics is a bit more serious than the Eurovision. I maintain that most people won't have even known who Ireland's entry was before they watched last night's semi final, much less known their actions regarding their manager. Sorry but you're not gonna change my mind on this one!

 

[Retro80s]

Went on twitter and Starbucks bloke was in Southampton and has been sacked

Have Starbucks made any comment about the incident?