Gender Discussion #12

[Ispyabudgetbeanblogger]

All this language stuff is so fascinating to me. We've talked about this on here before. I'm all for making language inclusive and clear (and clarity should always take precedence in my opinion). However, all this 'we must say this', 'you can't say that' stuff that the TRAs like to shout totally neglects the fact that even the people described may have different feelings towards those words.

A personal example. I was sexually abused as a child. People like me used to be referred to as victims. Now we are survivors. I personally hate the term survivor. It implies a) that I was in mortal danger (I wasn't) and b) the word survivor has a heroic connotation. I don't feel that this applies to me. I prefer the term victim, because the word implies passivity and no blame. The 'no blame' aspect is particularly important to me and it took many years of therapy to get there. I understand that this is highly personal to me and other people may have very different thoughts and feelings around these words.

I've had chats with people about cases in the news when I've used the word victim. They've corrected me to say that I should say 'survivors'. These people didn't know about my personal history and I know their comments came from a good place. I didn't want to disclose my abuse to them so I just let it go, but what was obvious to me is that some language is clear, i.e. 'X was sexually abused as a child' or 'X is a woman' or 'X is black' and other terminology may be hugely significant to some and not important to others (i.e. vicitim/survivor, non-male/cis woman, POC/African American, etc.) It's disingenuous to pretend that we have all agreed on these terms and that some of them are right and others are wrong.

I noticed in the discussion about race and terminology. The definition of man and woman is clear, because sex is real, no matter how much TRAs talk about cis. The language around race is much more complicated, because race actually is a social construct, unlike sex. Hence Spanish tourists becoming ethnic minorities or Latinos in the US, the term 'African American' being confusing (is a white South African who emigrated to the US and became a citizen an African American?), etc.

ETA @Vanelope - similar thoughts! Snap

 

[HoGi]

So true

 

[SqualorVictoria]

I know it's easy to say but it's imperative we push back on this- we cannot be forced to put pronouns in emails. The fight can only start when the first blood is drawn. Please please do not be bullied into doing this- we owe it to women everywhere to push back

 

[Ispyabudgetbeanblogger]

Others from Australia may have different thoughts but I find BIPOC not quite right for our circumstances either. There was some discussion last year on it:

'We're not even a whole word': Why this term doesn't sit well with some Australians

You might've heard the term 'BIPOC', but does anyone in Australia identify with it? We spoke to five Australians to find out.

www.abc.net.au

Same reason I don't like WOC. In a sense, all this labelling is a bit like 'cis'. 'Cis' only exists because it needs to be pitched against 'trans'. All these labels only exists because the default standard is 'white'. I know we need language to point out racism. I know we need a way to talk about it. But lumping every woman who isn't white together as WOC, or BIPOC, or whatever new terminology someone might come up with is pretty problematic in my opinion.

In my personal life, my university-educated Indonesian immigrant female colleague has more in common with me, a white immigrant woman with the same education, than she has with a black British working class woman living in poverty. All three of us have plenty in common though, as we are all women. Sexism is rife regardless of class, education, etc.

For feminism, all that matters is that we are women. I understand that not all groups of women face exactly the same challenges and if you are in a position of power you should use your voice to amplify those who have less, but all these labels, all the in-fighting helps no one. The rewriting of history by the TRAs that black women specifically weren't seen as women, rather than black people weren't seen as human is disgusting.

 

[Doc]

And look at the bandana, a feeble attempt at distracting from his male pattern baldness.

The ugliest men on the outside and inside

Why do they always pose in coquettish ways too? I’d be mortified having a picture of me with my hands under my chin like that if I was trying to promote a serious philosophical discussion and convey a sense of professionalism.

COSPLAY.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

The mixed weight lifting competion has now become the womens weight lifting. Goodbye cheat and fuck off!

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Good news!

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

Suggesting that there should be porn made for children/young people is just such a typical libfem thing to say. They are always trying to please everyone men to the detriment of women and children. We shouldn’t be encouraging children to watch any porn. We should be taking steps to make it harder for them to access it. Not just throw our hands in the air and say “well they’re gonna watch it anyway”. That’s a cop out. It’s shocking how young many kids are when they first stumble across it and end up addicted to it or traumatised by it. Do the people who say stuff like this even know about the harm porn causes? Or is it like the SW argument where they conveniently ignore it? It’s not healthy or normal imo to watch porn, the issues it causes in both men and women are starting to be pretty well documented. No one likes a guy who can’t get it up because of his porn addiction.

 

[Ispyabudgetbeanblogger]

Just stick some broccoli in the corner and get to your nearest Pride parade!

Disclaimer: I'm not a graphic designer.

 

[chocolatepeaches]

An eighth-grade student in the US state of Virginia has unleashed on a school board for its proposal to allow transgender females to use the girls bathroom – asking the board “how evil” it could be for making girls feel uncomfortable.

 

[Vanelope]

Kids are gender neutral until puberty really - or can be. It’s marketing that makes pink and blue happen (although my older one loves pink and sparkles without being pushed that way at all - I bought dinosaur prints.) They have a definite sex but body shapes are similar especially when smaller so when all the changes happen and girls suddenly feel they stand or look different I think deciding to be non-binary is a way of avoiding growing up and that sort of attention. Which totally makes sense. But you can be a baggy clothes wearing, football playing short haired girl and not have to mutilate your body which is where i absolutely will draw the line. Online doctors prescribing puberty blockers to children should be prosecuted.

 

[PollyPerks]

I wonder if it would be possible to have a different thread for CRT/intersectionality discussions? I really love having this one place where we can discuss gender issues without it being overtaken by other concerns, and I admit I have been a bit put off by the last few pages. Just my own feelings on this - if others disagree then please ignore!

 

[sheleg]

I never contribute to these threads (I do to the JKR one) but they’re interesting and sometimes stressful reading.

I would say I’m a radical feminist, not gender critical. For me, the GC movement has hugely embarrassed itself over the past couple of years, to the point I have actively distanced myself. I blame a lot of that on Posie Parker and her minions. While I might agree with her approach to the sex vs gender issue, I am absolutely floored by the racism of some of her crowd, and their obsession with putting biological sex above every other issue. It is not the only fight we need to win.

It’s a difficult one because I can see that the concept of intersectionality has been co-opted by lib fems to mean putting men first, but I still very much believe that proper intersectionality regarding race, disability, sexual orientation and privilege, has its place in feminism.

I think over time, this whole issue has been overcrowded by a certain type of middle class white woman, who absolutely deserve to fight for their biological rights, but also tends to have a blind spot or two and talk over other, less privileged women. Two years ago I promised myself I’d do more listening than talking, and what I’m hearing is that many are struggling with the GC crowd, particularly Black women who support the fight for sex-based rights but feel completely conflicted about fighting next to white women who display racism.

I think, unfortunately, there is a little bit of truth in the accusations from TRAs that GC are racist and right wing. I increasingly see spaces that used to be rad fem taken over by these women, and while I have absolutely zero issue with politically right wing women, I do have an issue with how some use these spaces to mock and spread anti-left agenda rather than contribute constructively.

On the other side of things, I can also absolutely see how the more left-leaning GC crowd are essentially creating an echo chamber and also maintain a bit of a snobby attitude re: education. So much infighting, it’s exhausting.

I suppose what I’m saying overall is that, while my position on gender vs sex has never changed (sex is immutable, biology matters, gender is a form of oppression for women and women’s rights need to be protected, particularly when it comes to biology), I am somewhat weary of 90% of the people involved and their extreme and/or exclusionary attitudes towards the issue. I don’t mean exclusionary like “trans-exclusionary” fyi but the mocking of left-wing politics or saying those who believe in X don’t belong, having a certain education threshold to take people seriously etc.

Ultimately, this is a fight for biological women, so the only criteria that is needed to join this fight is to either be a biological woman or a true ally. It used to feel like that, but now it’s all becoming a bit partisan in different directions.

With respect, I completely disagree.

The GC movement is by no means majority white middle class right-wing. On the contrary. Most of the GC women I know, famous or otherwise, are left-wing and working class, and many are not white. Class is a huge component of GC feminism, as it is predominantly working-class women who will suffer if our rights are eroded. Not many middle- and upper-class women will find themselves imprisoned alongside natal males, for example.

I understand what you're saying about not turning into a "one-issue" thing, but quite honestly, if we don't fight this, "woman" as a biological and social category will cease to exist at all.

As for GC women being racist, again I believe it to be the contrary. I can't think of anything more racist than the trans-sanctioned term "black birthing body", with all the undertones of slavery it carries. Likewise lumping black women in with trans women as a subset of women. That is disgusting.

 

[chocolatepeaches]

I'd like to mention this place has been a lovely space for me away from the trans mania worldwide Thank you for welcoming me and thank you once again for tolerating my updates.

If I have offended anyone intentionally or otherwise, please forgive me.

I love y'all

 

[AlanBanan]

I really wish morons who try and push that genital preference is transphobic and “literal violence” against trans ppl will one day realise that forcing gay people to date and have sex with people of the opposite sex is a literal conversion therapy tactic.

 

[D-ERF]

I'm not white, and just want to mention that the trans movement is especially nefarious with it's targeted comments at black women.

When black women bear the brunt of racial abuse and misogyny, the TRAs sweep in and say 'this is why you should support transwomen, the world doesn't view you as a woman either'. When black women speak online about black female athletes being denied spaces because of naturally high testosterone while males are competing as women, the TRAs say yet again 'this is why you should support transwomen, the world doesn't view you as a woman either', instead of saying the truth which is once again misogynoir has reared it's ugly head. They twist reality and make it seem as though black women's struggle has nothing to do with misogyny/racism, and go ahead and show their racism by comparing biological men to black women, but this time act like it's helpful to do so.

The TRAs prey on young insecure black girls, who are denied any positive representation (particularly of darker skinned girls, because Zendaya does not reflect the average fully black girl's image), and told they are less-than for not conforming to whatever beauty ideal, and the TRAs see that insecurity, and tell them to gear up and fight for the trans cause, instead of fighting for their own.

I don't know anything about this Posie Parker. All I know is, I'll be damned if I ever find myself fighting for that endless validation-hungry void again, while they turn around and disrespect and insult and belittle.

Post I found on this matter -

First person highlights what I mean about the trans community. The sight of black women going through misogynoir somehow means to some that they can sweep in and position themselves as the saviours. 'A direct consequence of transphobia' - lol, fucking kills me that a middle aged man is competing as a woman, and they think themselves fit to say this.

 

[AlanBanan]

I hate when little shits try to act like they know more than you and try to educate you with absolute bullshit that they themselves don’t even fully comprehend. Even though they still ask their ma and da for money, doesn’t know what a mortgage is and can’t drive. Fuck off with your little degree from twitter academy for the overly sensitive.

 

[HoGi]

There were only two men who admitted men have an unfair advantage and shouldn't compete at all. ALL of the women in the video supported trans women. I weep for my gender.

There was the drunk girl near the beginning who was critical, but she obviously seems unreliable.

I watch things like this and despair.

How people cannot understand basic biology and the fact that people born male have biological differences that make then stronger, faster and fitter than females is beyond me.

The person who said "it doesn't hurt anyone" YES IT DOES! It hurts biological females who have trained for years and will now not compete as their place has been taken by a man. It hurts women who's records will be obliterated by a man never to be beaten again.

The person who said "they have taken female hormones so I don't have an issue" their testosterone levels will never be as low as a biological female!! Their bones will still be stronger, they will still be taller, their muscles bigger and more dense.

It makes me so angry that people don't understand this

 

[AlanBanan]

One of the several reasons I don’t watch porn is because I am gay and I generally can’t bare to watch it due to the fact that I know most of it is catering to the male fantasy such as scissoring, fingering with acrylic nails also cumming within a second of being licked out. It is using my identity and millions of other women’s identity as wanking material. I also don’t like how obviously straight women are forced into performing sex acts with a gender they’re not even attracted to, never mind sexually attracted to. That is just heinous to me that people are forced to act something they aren’t as long as people get their jollies off to it.

Personally me or anyone I’ve been with have never had a porn like experience when having sex. I don’t speak about my sex life online as I think it should stay private. But i think scissoring is the classic male fantasy, as I have never found it good and I have never been with anyone who finds it in any way pleasurable. It’s plain awkward, end of.

Another reason is the aspect of trafficking within porn. I only found out several years ago that there’s a good portion of porn online that is actual child porn being hosted on “regular” porn sites as these sites have no regulation. Also a lot of amateur porn and those porn productions in poor countries porn in such countries like Ukraine, Poland, Thailand is women being raped to pay back personal or family debt.

As well as it’s been proven that porn agents tend to scout good looking young girls from poor areas who have had background history of sexual abuse and tempting these young girls into porn because if you’re going to have a creepy man climb on top of you and do their thing you might as well be paid for it.

A lot of hardcore scenes in porn is actually rape as well as most of the time the women in it are tied to an iron clad contract and forced to act in films that they’re not particularly comfortable with. I will try to find it but there’s an article about a girl who was only 18-19 and her first porno she ever shot was her being tied up and gangbanged anally and how she couldn’t shit properly for months after it, had intestinal tearing and damage as well as parasites in her bowels after it

Terrible disgusting business that I don’t understand why anyone would support.

I have more to write about why the industry disgusts me and I will tell you all about the two women that I am friends with on Twitter who’s abuse was put up for hundreds of thousands and millions to see as soon as I am on break or back from work as I have a long day today, as I need to get ready as I have to drive to another county X

 

[SqualorVictoria]

A (female) friend of my brother’s is doing an interview about women in mechanics and has found a trans women to interview because ‘what better person to ask since they’d know both sides’. I said if you’re writing an article about women mechanics then surely women would know what it’s like to be a woman…in mechanics….? And she wasn’t being rude but genuinely thought that this would be the perfect perspective.

Absolutely infuriating. It's *exactly* this kind of shit that is pushing women aside

I'm sure it didn't come from a bad place by the sounds of it, but you know what, I'm getting tired of the stupidity of the general public. Stupidity is not an excuse and it's certainly no consolation when women are getting nudged aside.