Did Richard III kill his nephews ? (was PK real?)

[Anasnake]

We teach the Princes in the Tower to year 7 and they always get obsessed with it. One class we’re supposed with this song that we had to play it every lesson.

 

[Mycuppatea]

I think Richard was an excellent man and king. I can imagine he could see the necessity for eliminating his nephews on a purely political level - he knew the country needed a strong, adult monarch and no more upheavals and instability which rival claimants and especially boy kings would bring about. I don't think it was possible to be a medieval king who was both good for his country and an exemplary moral character as we would understand it.

 

[Vanillaco]

I think Richard was an excellent man and king. I can imagine he could see the necessity for eliminating his nephews on a purely political level - he knew the country needed a strong, adult monarch and no more upheavals and instability which rival claimants and especially boy kings would bring about. I don't think it was possible to be a medieval king who was both good for his country and an exemplary moral character as we would understand it.

Actually I think you're correct. I never thought of that. I thought he was a good King therefore he couldn't have killed his nephews but that's a good point. It was a very violent time and Monarchs werent pointless figurehead they are today. They had huge amounts of power.

 

[Vanillaco]

The princes were before Richard in line for the throne.

Richard was the boy’s ‘protector’ and they were sent to the Tower to prepare for Edward Vs coronation, which obviously never happened.

There’s also rumours about Margaret Beaufort, she was determined that Henry would be king that nothing would stand in her way

Yeah but I was thinking after he was dead he had no heirs. It would have been easier to keep them alive in the Tower and name them as his heirs. I suspect Margaret Beaufort too. Also The Tudors went to great lengths afterwards to demonize Richard III. The Tudors claim to the Throne was wafer thin to say the least! Henry Viii's claim is stronger through his mother than his father. But then again they were all murdering bastards who tried to kill each other to get their grubby paws on the Throne so every monarch until now is only there through a twist of fate/ ancestors that were better warmongers than others or because they were the right religion! Hardly the Divine Right of Kings! I love talking about the Tudors and the Plantaganets sorry

 

[Anasnake]

Henry was also in constant pain in later life from a leg ulcer which undoubtedly contributed to his moods. His rotting leg stank to high heaven too

 

[Ceejayaitch]

I’m not sure (how lovely is Aneurin Barnard btw?), it always struck me that it was so easy to blame Richard 3 for their deaths and those that would have benefited from their deaths was never really looked into.

 

[Reverend]

see I understand that, and that's what I don't understand about Richard III, if it could have been repealed why didnt Richard put out a hit on him too? especially since he had the better claim after the princes in the tower..

Yes, you are right to be puzzled, and so are a lot of historians. The best answer to that is he was insurance for the succession if Richard didn't have any more children, and perhaps as a son of a traitor no one wanted to use him as a figurehead, so Richard felt safe. Its quite possible that Richard would have done the same as Henry when Edward was older then had him executed, as of course, he wasn't adverse to bumping off his nephews (as the theory goes ;-) ).

 

[Emsie]

They were women, so in those days, they didn't count.

Wasn't it expected of a queen to beg her husband for clemency of some convicted criminals. I wonder if Elizabeth tried this with Edward of Warwick or her brother / imposter

 

[Emsie]

never heard of that one but briefly what is it about? and exactly he was apparently a hero in the north, and it's puzzling how in 6 months he completely changed

It's 3 book trilogy... Catherine Howard, E1 and Arbella Stuart. Its more for fans of historical fiction but it's so interesting... Completely made up but a spin on some of the wild rumours regarding Catherine Howard being pregnant, paternity of Mary Queen of Scots, lettice Knowles relationship with E1. Just a really good read. But totally made up.

 

[Zenchick101]

Yes, you are right to be puzzled, and so are a lot of historians. The best answer to that is he was insurance for the succession if Richard didn't have any more children, and perhaps as a son of a traitor no one wanted to use him as a figurehead, so Richard felt safe. Its quite possible that Richard would have done the same as Henry when Edward was older then had him executed, as of course, he wasn't adverse to bumping off his nephews (as the theory goes ;-) ).

that would make sense since H7 already had heirs he wouldnt need that insurance ... wonder if elizabeth talked to H7 to prevent it. He was her cousin.

Now I'm wondering why H7 wouldn't want to take out other york heirs descended from Richard the 3rd and Edward the 4th's sisters wouldn't they be a threat too? why let Maggie live? - they would all be descendants from female lines but wouldn't their claim be stronger then H7's ? maybe I'm way off base here..

 

[Vanillaco]

I don’t think they were buried that night. The bones were found in a chest behind a staircase. It could have been prepared beforehand or they were disposed of days later.

They were definitely hidden and anything identifying taken from them. As I said previously, if they aren’t the boys who are they ? If only they would allow the bones to be tested !!!!!

Why wont they allow the bodies to be tested? The ideal time to do it would have been after they found Richard. If it was them they could have been buried with their parents.

 

[Zenchick101]

https://petermerlincane.wordpress.com/2014/11/11/proof-the-princes-of-the-tower-didnt-die/ though this was interesting..

They were women, so in those days, they didn't count.

yeah but if H7 strengthened his claim thanks to a woman wouldn't the other york women/their descendants be a threat? pretty sure H8 had alot of his york cousins taken out unless i'm way off base..

 

[Anasnake]

According to this article the argument is it would lead to other graves being disturbed ?????

Why the princes in the tower are staying six feet under

Correspondence shows Church of England has repeatedly refused to allow forensic tests on bones in Westminster Abbey

www.google.co.uk

 

[Zenchick101]

Why wont they allow the bodies to be tested? The ideal time to do it would have been after they found Richard. If it was them they could have been buried with their parents.

queen thinks it'll set a precedent for opening other royal casket or something - sounds shady though.. they were opened in the 30's and no one cares about deposing your family like..

 

[Zenchick101]

Apologies for being a dunce, what does PK stand for in the thread title?

Hi that's my bad actually I was thinking about Perkin Warbeck and wrote PK instead of PW

An Act of Attainder can be repealed by Parliament, and Edward could have been used as a figurehead for a rebellion. H7 claim to the throne was a very weak one. I think he waited until Edward was a decent age then have him executed.

see I understand that, and that's what I don't understand about Richard III, if it could have been repealed why didnt Richard put out a hit on him too? especially since he had the better claim after the princes in the tower..

In the Phillippa Gregory book he and Eluzabeth of York wanted to marry. She married Henry vii but I dont know if the Richard iii is true.


My son has a Horrible Histories book about History's worst murderers. Henry viii is in there because of all the people he had put to death. About 70,000 I think many for spurious reasons. I think he was a megalomaniac and completely mad. He basically divorced Anne of Cleves and killed Kathryn Howard because he was fat and impotent and they were young and couldn't hide their disgust for him. The Duke of Norfolk was another bastard offering up his nieces to him for his own advancement.

Henry viii was a monster, one theory I find interesting though is that his jousting accident completely affected his personality. In a course I had we studied a man in the 1800's who had a rod I believe go through his eye into a part of his brain - which happened to be the part that controls social norms amongst other things, one consequence of that was that this guy went from a normal behaved man to a man who would touch women innapropriately, swear at odd times all because of a brain lesion.

 

[Anasnake]

It was in a text book we have at school

 

[Zenchick101]

I think Edward of Warwick was gaining some support and then he was eventually killed for conspiring with perkin. Edward of Warwick is such a sad story... And his sister, didn't she get married to some nobody?

His death is so sad honestly he was psychologically damaged due to being imprisoned in the tower his whole life basically and thought to not be a threat because he was viewed as - slow and that's why I hate H7. H7 married his sister to his half cousin on his mother's side - a man of much lower birth and H8 had her executed which turned out to be the most horrific execution ever. (she was hacked to death by a novice and wouldn't lie still)

 

[Vanillaco]

We teach the Princes in the Tower to year 7 and they always get obsessed with it. One class we’re supposed with this song that we had to play it every lesson.

My son is year 7 and he did get obsessed with them I was reading 'The Hollow Crown' at the same time as he was doing the Wars of the Rose's. The rest of the family were a bit like

 

[Anasnake]

Thank you !

 

[Anasnake]

I read something once about Prince Richard having a lazy eye and Perkin also having one which is why some believed him. No idea how true that is ???

Jaquetta Woodville is my something G Grandmother. I was very impressed by this until I read that 1/4 people in England have Plantagenet ancestry. Put my claim to the throne into perspective !!!