Assisted Dying

[Milliemoo99]

Having had to make the heartwrenching decision to put my elderly dog down yesterday, and having seen my elderly dad die a few years ago of age/ complications/from cancer. I am entirely in favour of some kind of assisted dying! Of course there needs to be appropriate checks and balances in place.

Some of my feelings come from the advanced medical knowledge that we now have, that enable people and animals to live way longer than they would in previous days. IF someone is capable of living independently without medical intervention, then no assisted dying shouldnt be allowed. If I was severely ill, with only 6 months or so left to live, I would want the option to end things so that I wasnt a burden on my family, and so that they could remember the good times, not the painful ones.

If machines or medicine is necessary to keep someone alive, and they are suffering then surely offering the option of a way out is only fair?

We arent actually a very kind or compassionate society at times, some elderly people are left in almost criminally neglectful situations suffering from dementia or unable to live independently. Or some families care for extremely ill relatives at massive personal or financial cost to themselves.

The lovely communal family where all ages live together, and all support each other to care for terminally ill relatives, is a lovely idea, but rarely exists in practice.

 

[MrsVonDarkness]

I've nursed many dying people in my career. I have witnessed horrific deaths where symptoms can't be managed effectively. I've sadly seen families and loved ones in absaoloute agony watching the person the love they die slowly.
I've nursed people who tell me that they have no quality left in life and are scared for the future as their health condition is going to progress.
I have, of course, nursed people who have a peaceful death where their symptoms are managed well.
Assisted death is something I support and would choose for myself if I felt was necessary.

 

[mrs.migs]

My husband’s family have familial MND. His mum and 2 of her sisters died from it. His mum also developed dementia (quite common in the inherited type), so couldn’t have a feeding tube as she would pull it out. She effectively starved to death. Her last day still haunts me as she was so frail and just lay on the bed in the hospice, whimpering. Husband has already told me that if he gets it (apparently 50/50 chance), he will be going to Switzerland, and I totally support him in that. His mother, being deeply religious, would never have wanted assisted death. Luckily the hospice staff sedated her to the extent that she would not wake again. We would never allow a loved pet to suffer that way, why is it ok to allow a loved family member to do so?

 

[Notworthy]

I think some of the arguments against are valid but easily overcome with robust legislation. The whole point of assisted suicide is that it is for people that physically can't kill themselves. I've seen arguments about people with mental health issues but to not put too fine a point on it, ultimately they still have the ability to commit suicide under their own steam.
I don't want to be a burden to my Son if my quality of life is zero, happy to be a burden if I'm still enjoying life

 

[Foxvint]

I've nursed many dying people in my career. I have witnessed horrific deaths where symptoms can't be managed effectively. I've sadly seen families and loved ones in absaoloute agony watching the person the love they die slowly.
I've nursed people who tell me that they have no quality left in life and are scared for the future as their health condition is going to progress.
I have, of course, nursed people who have a peaceful death where their symptoms are managed well.
Assisted death is something I support and would choose for myself if I felt was necessary.

I've personally found your view universal amongst nurses which says a lot to me.

 

[LittleMy]

I mean there’s clearly a want for it nowadays. Fair enough if you wouldn’t want to put yourself through it but why should that mean you get to decide whether or not someone else can? Obviously it could only go ahead with strict laws around it, I don’t think anybody disagrees with that.

 

[bluefoot]

Because we’re already comparing our parents (not children though) to the family pet. Pets that very often get put down because we can’t afford vet fees. I can’t see how a law will stop a child asking their parent if they’ve considered assisted dying when learning they have a life limiting or ‘burdensome’ condition

 

[TheMiceInTheShed]

A leading story on BBC news today cos the Archbishop of Canterbury is of course opposed to it but unless you're CofE his opinion is worth no more than mine or yours. He's not one of our elected representatives. The article points out he's out of step with the general public who are majority in favour. Religious leaders shouldn't have anymore influence on this issue than anyone else given most of the British public don't look to them for guidance.

I'm CofE (and am a licensed minister) but frankly I have no respect for "Wokeby" or any of his opinions. He's not infallible and in my personal opinion is destroying the Church of England.

I do oppose assisted dying - but only because I fear that it will be abused in ways that we can't predict, and will end up being a legal imposition of eugenics, and a way of getting rid of "useless mouths" in the general population.

I know that they say "Oh, we'll make the laws watertight", but that won't happen. Look at the current "trans" carry on. No-one defined "woman" or "man" in the legal documentation because it was obvious what these groups were . . . and to sensible people it is still obvious, but people with an agenda have gained enormous political power and muddied the waters so much that everyone is frightened to speak out about it.

Look at surrogacy. All of those restrictions, all of those caveats to protect women from exploitation, and babies from being trafficked, and yet women are being exploited and babies are being trafficked.

The same will happen with assisted dying. It will start off all good intentions, then profit will rear its weird head, and then we are ALL lost.

 

[Notworthy]

I'm CofE (and am a licensed minister) but frankly I have no respect for "Wokeby" or any of his opinions. He's not infallible and in my personal opinion is destroying the Church of England.

I do oppose assisted dying - but only because I fear that it will be abused in ways that we can't predict, and will end up being a legal imposition of eugenics, and a way of getting rid of "useless mouths" in the general population.

I know that they say "Oh, we'll make the laws watertight", but that won't happen. Look at the current "trans" carry on. No-one defined "woman" or "man" in the legal documentation because it was obvious what these groups were . . . and to sensible people it is still obvious, but people with an agenda have gained enormous political power and muddied the waters so much that everyone is frightened to speak out about it.

Look at surrogacy. All of those restrictions, all of those caveats to protect women from exploitation, and babies from being trafficked, and yet women are being exploited and babies are being trafficked.

The same will happen with assisted dying. It will start off all good intentions, then profit will rear its weird head, and then we are ALL lost.

There's almost certainly more profit in keeping people alive.

 

[Former_Antelopee]

I'm entirely in favour of assisted dying. For any reason you choose. If you want to end your life you shouldn't have to do it in a way that may cause you or others more pain. No one should have to throw themselves off a bridge, no one should have to throw themselves in front of a train and no one should survive a failed attempt and now be profoundly disabled by it, further enhancing their suffering.

Ethics committees exist, there's no reason to assume that doctors would persuade people to end their lives when it isn't in their best interests, they swear an oath now and we don't suspect them of not following those promises now, do we? Doctors don't force women to have abortions so why would they start forcing the elderly or the disabled to choose a quick death?

I completely agree with you. I don't see why physical illness and mental illness should be treated differently, isn't that what people with mental illness keep saying?
If you've gone through treatment for whatever mental or physical illness and nothing is or can help your suffering stop whichever it may be and you don't want to live anymore then why isn't euthanasia a valid way to 'treat' you and end suffering.
As others said we can euthanase our animals to end their suffering, at least we'd have a saying what happened to ourselves. Obviously the mental health side would be harder to decide and less ethical? Which imo is true for the animal side of things as well with behavioural euthanasia being less accepted but I think it's something that happens less than it should and that some animals live an unhappy life as they are too stressed/aggressive to live a normally happy life but us humans want to help and since they are physically well wouldn't want to euthanase

 

[Lizzie Mintdrop]

I completely agree with you. I don't see why physical illness and mental illness should be treated differently, isn't that what people with mental illness keep saying?
If you've gone through treatment for whatever mental or physical illness and nothing is or can help your suffering stop whichever it may be and you don't want to live anymore then why isn't euthanasia a valid way to 'treat' you and end suffering.
As others said we can euthanase our animals to end their suffering, at least we'd have a saying what happened to ourselves. Obviously the mental health side would be harder to decide and less ethical? Which imo is true for the animal side of things as well with behavioural euthanasia being less accepted but I think it's something that happens less than it should and that some animals live an unhappy life as they are too stressed/aggressive to live a normally happy life but us humans want to help and since they are physically well wouldn't want to euthanase

Yes, the way I see it is, we aren't giving people an extra choice. People can already, and do, kill themselves. It's just giving them an option to do it with dignity, without risk of further harm

 

[Millennial Pink]

I would absolutely want the choice of assisted dying if I were terminally ill or extremely unwell and elderly and unable to do the job myself. The end of life procedures i've seen (morphine overdoses, withdrawal of food and water etc) seem to do the same thing, just far more slowly and imo cruelly. I don't see why people can't be afforded the choice to take control of the situation in this day and age.

Euthanasia is a more complicated discussion. I think I'm broadly for in extreme cases, but who should get to decide that for someone else?

 

[Foxvint]

I'm reading Peter Singer's essays on the issue atm. Has anyone else? I agree with all of his conclusions apart from the eligibility of people suffering mental illness for euthanasia. He doesn't think his opinion is worth more than anyone else's on this but I do given that he's a Professor of Ethics who's spent his entire career thinking, debating and writing about these things. I would rather be led by Ethics Professors and doctors on the issue than people who ignore the fact that I'm not in their holy book club. I'd love to put screenshots of certain sections on here but i imagine that's against copyright or tattle rules. He makes the point that when a family refuse to withdraw treatment on religious grounds for a patient with extremely poor prognosis, taxpayers funding this healthcare are not required to fiscally support the religious views of their fellow citizens which is why they are usually, or eventually, overruled by court order.

I know no one on this thread thus far has made religious arguments against AD so I'm preaching to the converted here but those are, and will be, the loudest voices in opposition and it's a mistake to underestimate the influence they still have on policy. They're still power adjacent.

Weirdly, as a mostly fairly lefty on most things, I don't hate Jacob Rees-Mogg as much as I'm supposed to for this very reason. As a staunch Catholic he is personally opposed to abortion. But he knows his is a minority view not shared by most of the British public and he doesn't seek to impose his view or use his political position to change that. I can respect that.

I've gone off-piste here so I'll shut up.
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Also I hope no one who is religiously opposed to AD feels unwelcome on this thread, feel free to throw in and show your workings with the rest of us.

 

[Foxvint]

So the bill passed as most people predicted. How's everyone feeling? I'm in favour but I know how horrible and hollowed out it feels when something you find really morally objectionable gets the green light.

 

[Miss polar]

I feel absolutely shocked that this bill has passed. There’s been no scrutiny of it, and only a five hour debate.
I don’t trust that Leadbeater women, and would love to know who’s backing her!

 

[Lizzie Mintdrop]

Fantastic news. I'm so pleased people can now choose a safe and dignified death

 

[Miss polar]

Fantastic news. I'm so pleased people can now choose a safe and dignified death

It’s not a given that this bill will become law! I sincerely hope it doesn’t!
It will be scrutinised line by line, and lots of amendments suggested. Also, it still has to get through the lords.
If there’s no full proof safeguards for coercion, then many of the mp’s who voted for it today won’t do so at the second reading.
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Leadbeater has said, this is the most pressing issue if our time.
No it’s bloody not. It’s her pet project!
What an arrogant self serving women she is. Only got elected on a pity vote, and now trying to make a name for herself on the backs of the most vulnerable in our society..

 

[Lizzie Mintdrop]

It’s not a given that this bill will become law! I sincerely hope it doesn’t!
It will be scrutinised line by line, and lots of amendments suggested. Also, it still has to get through the lords.
If there’s no full proof safeguards for coercion, then many of the mp’s who voted for it today won’t do so at the second reading.
---
Leadbeater has said, this is the most pressing issue if our time.
No it’s bloody not. It’s her pet project!
What an arrogant self serving women she is. Only got elected on a pity vote, and now trying to make a name for herself on the backs of the most vulnerable in our society..

I sincerely hope it does pass the Lords and becomes law. We have a duty to allow people to choose a safe and dignified death. No one should have to suffer the pain my dad went through, it's inhumane

 

[Miss polar]

I’m’m keeping everything crossed it doesn’t!

 

[Foxvint]

I don't like the way it's being presented on sites like twitter as being a sort of healthy v disabled thing. As if lots of ppl in favour don't know and love disabled ppl. It's simply untrue and I think there's ridiculous levels of hyperbole around the subject.