'Sick note culture'

[Moth]

Yes but the pip criteria are that you can do something regularly, reliably, safely and to a reasonable standard.
So the fact I could walk in the waiting room, could be used as evidence that I can walk, contradicting my form which says I can only walk in the early part of the day, and so I couldn’t walk the rest of the day after getting home from the assessment.

These are the sort of so-called contradictions they pick up.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the process, I'm just explaining how it works. Part of the problem is that in day-to-day conversation most people tend to play down their health problems and the effects on their life ... it's what I call the 'mustn't grumble' attitude. That's fatal in a conversation with a benefits assessor because they are looking for anything that indicates that it's not as bad as the claimant made out on the form. That's why I always advise clients to keep a copy of the form and make sure they read it carefully before attending an assessment - consistency is key.

 

[bunnyboo]

I've heard the stuff about bonuses for denying benefits plenty of times but I don't think there's ever been any proof. I think it has been documented that that they have to meet a quota for the number of people they see and face consequences if they don't. This results in the assessments being rushed and mistakes made.

You're correct in noting that there isn't evidence of bonuses directly tied to denying benefits.

However, it was documented that PIP assessors contracted by Atos were incentivised to perform more assessments per day. They received an additional £50 for each assessment they completed beyond the standard quota of four per day in-office or three for home visits. Additionally, they were earning a bonus of £75 for each completed assessment. This incentive structure contributed to rushed appointments, as you mentioned, leading to potential inaccuracies in the assessment outcomes due to increased workload pressures.

 

[Moth]

But how can you set a quota of how many people to deny at WCA?
And surely PIP also has quotas, their assessors aren’t all medically trained.
Who works out that 1 in 3 applications should fail, and how? Based on what Info?

PIP extrapolate one thing and use it to deny points in other areas, eg if you can dress your bottom half then you can stand and bend to cook a meal, so you can cook a meal even if you told them you can only stand for one minute and have no fine motor skills and can’t cook a meal.

I still don’t understand what benefits have to do with SSP -which is what you get paid if a GP signs you off sick, and entitles you to be paid £90/£100 a week SSP?
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Ok I actually read the proposal properly, it’s here

Disability benefits system to be reviewed as PM outlines "moral mission" to reform welfare

The Prime Minister has outlined a package of sweeping reforms to put work at the heart of welfare and deliver on his “moral mission” to give everyone who is able to work, the best possible chance of staying in, or returning to work.

www.gov.uk

There are no quotas for the number of people awarded LCW (limited capability for work) under UC or PIP (as far as anyone knows). There are targets for the number of people that assessors have to see per day. It has been claimed that this is too high to allow the assessors enough time to prepare and carry out the assessment properly.

PIP assessors have the same requirements for medical qualifications as ESA / UC assessors.

SSP is only paid for 28 weeks. After that someone still unable to work would have to claim ESA or UC(LCW).

Assessors (for ESA, UC and PIP) are looking for anything that contradicts the claims made on the health assessment form that the claimant has submitted. That might be apparent contradictions on the form itself or something said or done by the claimant during the assessment, in the waiting room before the assessment and even on the way into the building.
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I don’t think there is a ‘sick note culture’. From my limited experience claiming benefits, it’s made so byzantine and capricious that the majority of people don’t end up claiming anywhere near what they’re entitled to.

It‘s just another dog whistle attempt by the Tories to appeal to a certain group of people who might vote for them.

PIP and Attendance Allowance have traditionally been under-claimed benefits. It's the recent economic crisis that has seen people casting around for any benefits that they might claim to get extra money. At the CAB where I work, besides requests for food vouchers, the biggest growth areas are general enquiries about what benefits are available and help with applications for PIP. Some of the PIP claims are pretty optimistic (to put it mildly) but some people have probably been eligible for years and just not claimed.

 

[HotesTilaire]

I've heard the stuff about bonuses for denying benefits plenty of times but I don't think there's ever been any proof. I think it has been documented that that they have to meet a quota for the number of people they see and face consequences if they don't. This results in the assessments being rushed and mistakes made.

The assessors come from people qualified as a nurse, physiotherapist, paramedic or occupational therapist and must have two years experience. They get training in how to carry out the assessment. The WCA is based on a questionnaire on number of criteria about how the person's disability or health condition affects their ability to work. The answers given on the form are then cross checked by the health professional's discussion and possibly examination of the claimant. They then make a recommendation to a 'decision maker' in the DWP who decides if the benefit is awarded and at what rate.

GPs and Consultants don't want to be involved in the decision as to whether someone receives benefits. Once upon a time they could be asked to fill in a questionnaire to support their patient's benefits claim but so many refused to do it that I think the practice has now more or less stopped.
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You have to be careful with percentages. It's true that of the cases considered by the tribunal the original DWP was overturned in about 71% of cases.

However, out of a total 3 million PIP applications over the last 5 years, 56% ( 1.7million) of all claims were awarded on first application, 5% (230,000) of all claims were changed after review by the DWP (Mandatory Reconsideration) and 3% (100,000) of all claims changed by the tribunal.

Overall it means that about 13% of people who were awarded PIP only got it after challenging the initial decision of which 5% only got it after going to a tribunal.

But how can you set a quota of how many people to deny at WCA?
And surely PIP also has quotas, their assessors aren’t all medically trained.
Who works out that 1 in 3 applications should fail, and how? Based on what Info?

PIP extrapolate one thing and use it to deny points in other areas, eg if you can dress your bottom half then you can stand and bend to cook a meal, so you can cook a meal even if you told them you can only stand for one minute and have no fine motor skills and can’t cook a meal.

I still don’t understand what benefits have to do with SSP -which is what you get paid if a GP signs you off sick, and entitles you to be paid £90/£100 a week SSP?
---
Ok I actually read the proposal properly, it’s here

Disability benefits system to be reviewed as PM outlines "moral mission" to reform welfare

The Prime Minister has outlined a package of sweeping reforms to put work at the heart of welfare and deliver on his “moral mission” to give everyone who is able to work, the best possible chance of staying in, or returning to work.

www.gov.uk

 

[HotesTilaire]

Thanks. Why did they feel the need to change the name of it I wonder? Seems a bit daft to me. I always assumed a 'fit note' was something declaring one was 'fit' to return to work after having been signed off on a 'sick note' for a period of time. Aah you live & learn.

So the DR had a pre-printed grid to tick that you may be fit for some work with adjustments, and tick
-altered hours
-amended duties
-phased return
-workplace adjustments

before getting to the “not fit for any work” part of the note

it was changed to stop so many people getting signed off…
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Because that's too obvious and costs too much money.

Will prob cost similar and same or better outcome than making ppl go to Capita Work Assessor

 

[HotesTilaire]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the process, I'm just explaining how it works. Part of the problem is that in day-to-day conversation most people tend to play down their health problems and the effects on their life ... it's what I call the 'mustn't grumble' attitude. That's fatal in a conversation with a benefits assessor because they are looking for anything that indicates that it's not as bad as the claimant made out on the form. That's why I always advise clients to keep a copy of the form and make sure they read it carefully before attending an assessment - consistency is key.

Easiest thing I found (for my fluctuating condition) is to look at what you can’t do (per the pip criteria of regular, reliable, safely, to a reasonable standard) rather than describe what you can do.

 

[Mamacita]

Thanks. Why did they feel the need to change the name of it I wonder? Seems a bit daft to me. I always assumed a 'fit note' was something declaring one was 'fit' to return to work after having been signed off on a 'sick note' for a period of time. Aah you live & learn.

I'm not sure why but the fit notes have levels, like you're not fit for work, fit if adjustments are made, or fit for work so I guess it's not you're 'sick' Vs 'not sick'

 

[Blurp]

I'm on UC with extra payments and no more sick lines because of cancer. I also get PIP (or rather it's just changed to ADP from Social Security Scotland) for separate reasons (awarded at tribunal).

I had a UC reassessment interview yesterday and I was terrified that they would take my extra payments away but it was all about my finances, not a single thing about my health. They want bank statements, PayPal statements, share statements etc. I previously had to send photos of me with my passport in.

 

[Sketchy]

Anyone any views on Rishi Sunak's determination to stamp out the apparent sick-note culture?

Are out-of-work benefits too easy, or too hard to get these days?

Is Covid responsible for having a negative effect on people's mental health, etc?

Really interested to hear everyone's views on this, whether for or against. (Apologies if there's already a thread, I couldn't find one)

 

[Sketchy]

Btw, is a sick note now called a fit note? Or are they two different things?

 

[HotesTilaire]

Btw, is a sick note now called a fit note? Or are they two different things?

Yeah a Sick Note has been called a “fit note“ for a good few years now.

since 2013

Fit note

Guidance for doctors, nurses, occupational therapists, pharmacists, physiotherapists, employers, and patients using fit notes (statements of fitness for work).

www.gov.uk

 

[Sketchy]

Yeah a Sick Note has been called a “fit note“ for a good few years now.

since 2013

Fit note

Guidance for doctors, nurses, occupational therapists, pharmacists, physiotherapists, employers, and patients using fit notes (statements of fitness for work).

www.gov.uk

Thanks. Why did they feel the need to change the name of it I wonder? Seems a bit daft to me. I always assumed a 'fit note' was something declaring one was 'fit' to return to work after having been signed off on a 'sick note' for a period of time. Aah you live & learn.