Lucy Letby Case #15

[MmmB777]

I’ve worked in SCBU for 3 months over 20 years ago. I’ve had my own baby in NICU. They definitely cry, mine did. I’ve heard babies born to addicts scream in NICU/SCBU as they are born addicted and withdrawing even though they are treated with powerful drugs. No one forgets that cry. I am trying not to be too specific about my own details here as my current job is fairly specialised.



I think what he said is fairly outrageous and an obvious lie if the media have reported his response word for word.



I am not entirely sure what you mean by this question. What I mean is, if she is being falsely accused. The legal position is absolute innocence until found guilty by a jury (or judge or magistrates). No-one knows if she has actually done any of the things she is accused of. No-one except her.

The doctor isn’t on trial, I don’t have any reason to think he would lie, I think it would correlate with other medical evidence we will hear about baby’s vocal chords not being visible, blood loss, injury. It’s not going to be the thing that convicts her either way. I can see you have totally different view which is fine, we’ll have to agree to disagree on whether it’s significant enough to make an impact of Letby’s innocence or not.

I think everybody here is well aware that innocent until proven guilty is absolutely the correct legal position. However, this is a discussion forum and none of us are J or J and can form whatever opinions we like. Sorry if that is frustrating. I don’t think I’m more right for feeling the way I do and get accused of being arrogant and ridiculous for coming to my conclusions so quickly but continuously it’s made out that my position is ‘wrong’. That’s fine but I couldn’t personally care less if people want to be on the fence till the last minute, NG even if she’s found G or decided guilty when they saw her in the floppy hat and pink hoody. One position isn’t better than the other as we’re not on the jury and none of us are behaving as though we are because we are discussing the case.
I have found your contributions really interesting and tried to point out areas I agree with you, please don’t see this as me saying you cannot share them, just feel like I don’t need it pointed out that she’s innocent until proven guilty and don’t feel that means I have to conclude she is. I admire people that can stay that open minded! I’ve felt guilty early on for many high profile crimes and don’t feel it’s had any impact on anything because I did!

 

[Milktray]

Can I just add that (to anyone who doesn't know) from today the case may become even more harrowing as the prosecution will be moving on to child E and F. Regardless of whether you believe LL is guilty or not guilty, please be wary that this may become incredibly distressing . xxx

 

[FastAndTheCurious7]

Can I just add that (to anyone who doesn't know) from today the case may become even more harrowing as the prosecution will be moving on to child E and F. Regardless of whether you believe LL is guilty or not guilty, please be wary that this may become incredibly distressing . xxx

Thanks for the heads up. I don’t think I will be following the next few days, hearing about child E broke me

 

[Milktray]

Thanks for the heads up. I don’t think I will be following the next few days, hearing about child E broke me

Its just heartbreaking. I know there's a few people who pop in and out, so they may not be aware of what's to come, it only felt right to give a heads up.

If it gets too much, then I'll also stop following for a while.

 

[Deeznutslol]

Yeah I might dip out too tbh. I don’t want to skip parts because I want to be able to hear all the evidence and get a full picture, but some of it is just too much

 

[OldBlondie]

Just seen this from the journalist that does the podcast about a bonus episode for anyone interested

 

[MmmB777]

Can I quickly add as well that the crying thing I believe the picture was that the doctor had never heard a baby that premature (maybe I’m wrong and this was the bleeding?) cry this way not that they’d never heard a baby on the unit cry. I guess it’s indicative of trauma or there seemed to be no obvious reason why baby was screaming in a way that was indicative of distress I also think the defence saying it could be hunger is equally as unbelievable as I’d assume anyone working there would likely know the difference. There could be lots of other variants making the doctor feel that way, perhaps because of the medication or treatment the baby was on too Certainly still theoretically possible they could be lying but I’d personally disagree. I understand that language like that could make people think the witnesses undermine their own evidence though so agree in that respect. I just tend to corroborate the other factors and think about whether I personally can logically see why they’d lie/misremember. I understand that’s not how others see it.

So sorry if the next two charges are particularly awful for anybody

 

[friedeggontoast]

Having just re read about Child E on the wiki, I just cannot see a scenario where LL wasn’t responsible.

Falsified medical notes.

Conflicting statements from LL vs. the mum and the SHO.

The mum walking in on LL to find her baby bleeding from the mouth. LL denies any memory of this even happening, so is she inferring the mum is either lying or does not remember a memory of seeing her newborn baby bleeding from the mouth? Granted trauma can affect memory but alongside the falsified medical notes it screams guilty to me. It’s not just LL vs. the mum’s statement, it’s the SHO and other staff too.

The prosecution say Letby's note suggests the mum was present at the start of the shift (7.30pm-8pm), and returned at 10pm, when "neither is true". The prosecution say 9pm was an important time, as it was the time Child E was due to be fed, by his mother's expressed breast milk. The mum said that is why she attended at 9pm. "She was bringing the milk".

The phone call at 9.11pm to her husband also fits the mum's timing, the prosecution add. Letby's notes also show: "prior to 21:00 feed, 16ml mucky slightly bile-stained aspirate obtained and discarded, abdo soft, not distended. SHO [Senior House Officer] informed, to omit feed." The prosecution say the nursing notes made are false, and fail to mention that Child E was bleeding at 9pm. They mention a meeting that neither the registrar or the mother remember.
A record of feeds - a feeding chart - is shown to the court.

 

[Appletiser]

I may be wrong but I think it wasn’t that they’d never seen a prem baby scream in that way not cry. But I’m not sure if I’m getting two incidents mixed up?
There was one I commented about a week or so ago which stood out to me where I thought Dr Sandie Bohin sounded like they could be exaggerating because they said something about prem babies not crying but that baby was born at 36 weeks which isn’t really hugely premature… but what would they have to gain from exaggeration I dunno it’s a headf*ck!
I want to trust the medical experts but I sometimes get this feeling that I don’t fully , I don’t even know why?!

 

[Faith61]

Having just re read about Child E on the wiki, I just cannot see a scenario where LL wasn’t responsible.

Falsified medical notes.

Conflicting statements from LL vs. the mum and the SHO.

The mum walking in on LL to find her baby bleeding from the mouth. LL denies any memory of this even happening, so is she inferring the mum is either lying or does not remember a memory of seeing her newborn baby bleeding from the mouth? Granted trauma can affect memory but alongside the falsified medical notes it screams guilty to me. It’s not just LL vs. the mum’s statement, it’s the SHO and other staff too.

The prosecution say Letby's note suggests the mum was present at the start of the shift (7.30pm-8pm), and returned at 10pm, when "neither is true". The prosecution say 9pm was an important time, as it was the time Child E was due to be fed, by his mother's expressed breast milk. The mum said that is why she attended at 9pm. "She was bringing the milk".

The phone call at 9.11pm to her husband also fits the mum's timing, the prosecution add. Letby's notes also show: "prior to 21:00 feed, 16ml mucky slightly bile-stained aspirate obtained and discarded, abdo soft, not distended. SHO [Senior House Officer] informed, to omit feed." The prosecution say the nursing notes made are false, and fail to mention that Child E was bleeding at 9pm. They mention a meeting that neither the registrar or the mother remember.
A record of feeds - a feeding chart - is shown to the court.

Heartbreaking...Will be interesting (and very sad, to say the least) to hear her evidence

 

[MmmB777]

Having just re read about Child E on the wiki, I just cannot see a scenario where LL wasn’t responsible.

Falsified medical notes.

Conflicting statements from LL vs. the mum and the SHO.

The mum walking in on LL to find her baby bleeding from the mouth. LL denies any memory of this even happening, so is she inferring the mum is either lying or does not remember a memory of seeing her newborn baby bleeding from the mouth? Granted trauma can affect memory but alongside the falsified medical notes it screams guilty to me. It’s not just LL vs. the mum’s statement, it’s the SHO and other staff too.

The prosecution say Letby's note suggests the mum was present at the start of the shift (7.30pm-8pm), and returned at 10pm, when "neither is true". The prosecution say 9pm was an important time, as it was the time Child E was due to be fed, by his mother's expressed breast milk. The mum said that is why she attended at 9pm. "She was bringing the milk".

I guess some people feel like witness accounts are not reliable and I agree on their own and in a single incident like a robbery or attack then that is true. I couldn’t pick somebody that attacked my friend out of a line up it still upsets me to this day. So people can get it wrong of course.
However, to me, multiple witness accounts where the alleged perpetrator is known (at varying levels but still known) to the victims relatives and doctors feels different to the unreliability of witness accounts in other crimes.
It certainly gets very interesting from here on in with what Letby is alleged to have done to cover her tracks. The phone call with the husband will have been memorable to them both and solidifies the time frame for me. I’m sure there was talk of a comment left on Facebook that said “I told you she was hurting my baby” but that obviously can’t be taken as fact.

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

I have just finished listening to The Mail podcast. Episode 5, baby C. I'm actually shaking, I think the podcast does a good job of being very matter of fact and gives a much better idea of what the jury are hearing than this thread and the "live" reporting.

I personally find it hard to keep up everyday as the reporting can be so disjointed and contradictory at times.

RIP these poor babies, so loved, so wanted and died so needlessly.

The poor staff had to have been traumatised by what was happening, we spoke yesterday about how we can and people generally do blame themselves when they have done nothing wrong. I feel the other staff in this hospital were probably beating themselves up every day thinking they were missing something or that maybe they were at fault somehow. Little did they realise they weren't just struggling with being under-resourced and under-staffed, they were fighting a losing battle with a serial killer too.

Staff had to have left the profession after this surley?

 

[Rippedjeanmaybe]

I had a dream last night that I had a daughter and she passed away at birth and then I had to go home because it was my birthday and people were singing happy birthday and acting normal and I just felt this weight on my chest and this deep depression. I woke up feeling awful.

I think the pain that the parents must be feeling is really weighing on my mind. I don’t have children and I have no plans for them, but I can’t imagine how heartbreaking it must be for them to lose their child and then to find out that it could have been prevented.

I can’t stop reading it though, I need to follow the trial and see that justice is done.

 

[friedeggontoast]

She says she was keen to get home and was keen to transport both babies to a hospital closer to home, and was waiting for two ambulances to be provided.

She said she and her partner were under the impression both babies were well enough to travel.

By that stage, she had had skin-to-ckin contact with both twins, and both were managing "fine".

By August 2, the couple were still waiting for transport.

She said on that day, the twins were both out of their incubators by this stage.

Child E was breathing "easily" and Child F was "great".

_____________________________________________

They were so close to getting out of COCH

 

[Tofino]

Having just re read about Child E on the wiki, I just cannot see a scenario where LL wasn’t responsible.

Falsified medical notes.

Conflicting statements from LL vs. the mum and the SHO.

The mum walking in on LL to find her baby bleeding from the mouth. LL denies any memory of this even happening, so is she inferring the mum is either lying or does not remember a memory of seeing her newborn baby bleeding from the mouth? Granted trauma can affect memory but alongside the falsified medical notes it screams guilty to me. It’s not just LL vs. the mum’s statement, it’s the SHO and other staff too.

The prosecution say Letby's note suggests the mum was present at the start of the shift (7.30pm-8pm), and returned at 10pm, when "neither is true". The prosecution say 9pm was an important time, as it was the time Child E was due to be fed, by his mother's expressed breast milk. The mum said that is why she attended at 9pm. "She was bringing the milk".

The phone call at 9.11pm to her husband also fits the mum's timing, the prosecution add. Letby's notes also show: "prior to 21:00 feed, 16ml mucky slightly bile-stained aspirate obtained and discarded, abdo soft, not distended. SHO [Senior House Officer] informed, to omit feed." The prosecution say the nursing notes made are false, and fail to mention that Child E was bleeding at 9pm. They mention a meeting that neither the registrar or the mother remember.
A record of feeds - a feeding chart - is shown to the court.

The phone call she made to her husband at 9.11pm is so critical to this for the proof of timing and proof Lucy is lying. Otherwise there could be some doubt mum got the time wrong or mistaken which nurse it was like the other mum.

 

[Faith61]

Sorry for swearing but...bleeping hell

 

[MmmB777]

Just to say for anybody that likes to look at different reporting, Dan O is also tweeting today. I was going to screen shot but I know some people might be avoiding the details today

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

Sorry for swearing but...bleeping hell

She's a monster.

 

[friedeggontoast]

If she is guilty she is one sick human being

 

[OldBlondie]

The mother’s evidence in court today

It’s so hard listening to how these babies were so close to escaping the hospital and LL. I just think that this (for me) confirms that all of the parent’s accounts to be far more truthful than LLs. Listening to the mother today is so so heartbreaking, and can understand why some people may need to dip out. Personally I agree with the PP she is an absolute monster. Evil and twisted and extremely devious and calculating, sorry for anyone that may not agree, I just can’t see anything but that at this point