Israeli-Palestinian Conflict #8

[CheesyMarmite]

Haven’t commented on here before but I have been reading on and off when I can.
Thank you to so many of you for your far more educated comments and explanations on the history of this.
I have spent time finding out more of how all of this has built up over the last 7 decades to reach this point. My eyes have been opened and I have felt so dumb for listening to the media but now I know better than to blindly trust!
Absolutely horrified by the pictures and videos I see from journalists in Gaza on instagram. There are images that will stay with me forever and I feel so helpless when I see the destruction of homes, entire families, neighbourhoods and the creation of a generation of orphans.
Israel comes across as a spoilt child who has been given all the toys they want, but now they want more and don’t care who they bully and destroy to get it. They are committing numerous war crimes with the world just watching on. It’s all just so fucking horrific.
I know we all (well a vast majority of us) want a ceasefire and for the UK government to demand one (and your own governments if you are not UK) but if the UK demanded one, then what would happen if Israel ignored that? Would there be repercussions if they ignored calls for a ceasefire from western governments?

 

[Dogmuck]

I feel like a broken record, the only thing keeping me going at the moment is some mad revenge fantasies and the prospect of all these psychotic lunatics losing everything once they've finished their genocidal mass murder.

Same. I’m currently giving up smoking. I’d normally use this sadness, anger and rage as an excuse to start smoking again but I’m actually using the Palestinians situation and courage to have a word with myself and be like, “you’re sad and angry, how the fk do you think the Palestinians are feeling? You’re missing nicotine, how would you feel if you didn’t have water, food, fuel, a house etc ffs? Get over yourself!” It’s THE best reason I’ve ever had to quit and I gave up one week after this shit started and every week I send the £ I’ve saved to the PSC I’ve sent over £800 so far (smoked £120 worth a week ). Every time I think I can’t handle this or anything actually, I don’t have to dig that deep to recognise how privileged I am and how it’s my responsibility to bear witness to this no matter how frustrating, gruesome, harrowing it all gets. We need to watch, comment and spread the word even if it’s only online, because this is our only weapon until it’s election time and then our weapon is our vote. People are getting educated on the Palestinian situation and they are waking up to the horrors the Palestinian people have had to endure for the last 75 years. The Israeli PR machine can no longer churn out its shit without question and they are being caught out in their lies several times a day. I have hope that the Palestinian lives lost will not be in vain.

 

[Skinny]

The wounds of children on Instagram at the moment are horrifying. I will never forget and never forgive.

 

[Veronicaaa]

No one is mentioning the innocent civilians on the other side of this.

Like I said you should turn on the news. The Israeli hostages have been pretty much the main story since the start, and continue to be so. They're currently the excuse for the 5.5k Palestinian children murdered by the IDF, though when they're released, the genocide will continue.

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

Ahem....

 

[ordinaryjelly]

I can't find it now but on Twitter I just watched a montage of Palestinians returning to their neighbourhoods and homes during the cease fire and finding nothing. One woman found two of her children's t shirts and nothing else, someone else found a cooking gas canister and another person found two tiles that had been their porch flooring.

Can you even imagine fleeing in terror with whatever you could carry and then returning to nothing. Less than nothing. I am sure those people knew they weren't returning to their homes as they had left them, but to find nothing. One person found two neighbours buried alive under the rubble. Just imagine that? Those neighbours you shared food with, you talked to daily. Gone in a horrific manner.

Absolutely nothing. Your entire life gone.

The trauma of fleeing, the trauma of returning. The trauma of leaving your children in refugee camps knowing if you aren't quick enough you might not get back to them. So much hurt, so much pain. It is unimaginable.

And still people defend Israel. Still our Government's sit beside the side of the clearly wrong. Our Governments who were so quick to condemn Russia when they invaded Ukraine. Those same people sit quietly by and watch this atrocity unfold, watch genocide in technicolour detail. Shame on them.

 

[Dogmuck]

The lack of attention given to Palestinan hostages held by Israel is... something.

Even from the pro Palestine crowd, I haven't heard anything. Was it common knowledge that Israel was holding Palestinians hostage?

I assumed so because that's how wars go, but never saw anything about it.

Apparently there are 150 women and children.

Just highlights how skewed the coverage has been. Even the ceasefire support from people who want to see no more Palestinian lives lost didn't seem to consider that hostages on that side may also need releasing.

It's mostly been calling for a ceasefire to minimise the loss of Palestinan lives and to release Israeli hostage (as well as protect them from harm/death).

You may not have heard the term “hostages” but you will have heard the term “detainees”. Israel, for years, has taken Palestinians, including thousands of women and children for no real reason but for as little as throwing stones and put them in, what they call, “administrative detention”, this means they can hold them, without charge, indefinitely. There are currently over 7000 Palestinians kept in this state of limbo. Those that are charged are put in front of a military court (a different system from Isreali citizens, so apartheid right there) who have a 97% conviction rate. There are children who have been convicted of throwing stones who get up to 20 years in prison. So the reality is that other than the 2.3m hostages kept in the gazan borders, there are thousands of Palestinians held without charge, so essentially hostages. Quite often these people are family members of a Palestinian fighter, they are routinely taken with the message that the fighter, or person they want, must hand themselves in if they want their family members releasing.

Once you know this stuff, it gives you some understanding of why there’s resistance, the Israelis have been doing this in plain view of the whole world for decades with zero condemnation or consequences. It makes me furious but I see a slither of hope that so many people are learning about it and waking up to the vicious, draconian system the Palestinians have to endure. This war, whilst devastating for the amount of lives and destruction, may be the beacon of light that needed shining on the Palestinians plight.

Just last night the Israelis took about 30 people captive. Like yeah while they were agreeing to release 150 captives they’re filling their coffers with more! It’s fkng disgusting

 

[Perspicacia Tick]

So Hamas are innocent in all of this? That’s what you’re saying? Hamas the terrorist organisation that uses human shields is innocent.

See this is where you lose me. Hamas are a terrorist organisation. They're shits, by their very nature we know that they don't care about innocent civilians who might get hurt when they hide behind them. They're awful.

I expect better from a supposedly democratically elected government and national army. They fucking should care, they should be asking themselves whether killing 1000 innocent people to get to a couple of terrorists is OK. They should be doing everything in their power to mminimise risk to women and children and patients and medical staff and aid workers and journalists etc etc

The second they throw their hands up in the air and say "well Hamas is using these innocents as human shields so fuck them, kill them all" they stop being human shields.

A shield by design is to protect - If the people you're defending yourselves against just see your shield as a nothing to smash through then they're not a shield by definition. And the Israeli government should just be honest and say that killing members of Hamas is worth the loss of civilian life to them because those people don't matter anyway.

They won't - because the human shield defense is too entrenched - but every fucker in the world knows its true.

And Hamas are laughing- because they didn't care about those people anyway... but now the whole fucking world knows that Israel don't either. They have played right into Hamas' hands - with the while wide world watching them, live on TV.

 

[Shimmering]

I'm focusing on continuing to oppose the genocide of the Palestinian people, rather than deal with random accounts who pop up every now and then to call everyone who doesn't want genocide antisemitic.

Is that all they have as an argument? Genuinely, seven threads deep and that's it? That's all you have?

I admire those with the patience to engage,but my energy is limited and precious.

 

[IBH8-8]

I didn’t realise the death toll had hit over 20k. I saw another tweet which claimed Hamas deaths were at around 200. I’d like to find a reputable source on the Hamas numbers but how the fuck anyone can justify this is beyond me.


---

Best thing he's ever done though I think it will make the anti Semites and radicals more aggressive. Though if a leftwing MP supported the march they would react exactly the same, if not worse.They're easily inflamed, as all hooligans are.
I'm specifically talking about the ones who have been intimidating or attacked or threatened ordinary Jewish people in their everyday life on British streets. Those are the hooligans.

Boris Johnson joins antisemitism protest as thousands march through London

Boris Johnson has joined the antisemitism protest in London as thousands gather in the capital city.

www.express.co.uk

Boris Johnson, that famous racist… in good company with the likes of Tommy Robinson and Douglas Murray. I’d want him nowhere near a march I was supporting.

 

[IBH8-8]

Don’t be silly, why would they be? 90% of this thread is closeted anti-semites!

Prove it. Show an example. Nonsense
---
How the fuck are we nearly at the end of November and we have to justify calling for Palestinians to stop being murdered?!

Go back to the first thread - every single person condemned Hamas. It as an atrocity.

“What about 7th October”? Agree - horrific! What about 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th etc up to today where innocent Palestinians are being murdered by the Israeli & US war machine?

I’m fed up of people using anti semitism as a way to ignore these atrocities. Two rights don’t make a wrong.

Being sad has gone. I’m now angry.

If you’re here supporting what Israel is doing right now - fuck you.
---
Two wrongs don’t make a right. You know what I mean. But my points still stand.

 

[ordinaryjelly]

Amongst everything else, what is really impossible for me to get my head around and actually makes me feel like I have a weight on my chest, is the estimated 15,000 Palestinians suspected dead under the rubble. 1 Palestinian would be too many.

I wonder how many of us realise that the majority of people don't die instantly under rubble. In those confined spaces, where you are alive, hurting more than you have ever hurt in your life, unable to move, the temperature rises to unbearable levels. You are trying to breathe but there is no air. Just carbon monoxide. Slowly and scarily you suffocate to death.

An estimated 15,000 people have died like that in 54 days. Unimaginable.

 

[Lammington]

I believe the victims of Hamas, unlike you.

I would encourage you not to selectively believe them. In discounting their statements that their captors were not inhumane while holding them, you are disbelieving their statements when they don't line up with your preconceptions just as much as you feel others are doing.

Like any other group of people who commit hideous acts while holding the belief they are doing it for a cause, Hamas can have members capable of great horror, and capable of humane treatment. In believing the hostages when they say they were not treated with the violence people assumed would face them while being held, you need not think Hamas are good people, or not terrorists.

But there is no need to refuse to believe a group you believe when they speak ill of members of Hamas, when they speak well of members of Hamas. Much as you scoff at humanising Hamas, they are human. We can abhor their actions without thinking they are less than human, in the same way many of us abhor the Israeli government and IDF without ever thinking they are not human.

 

[Veronicaaa]

Sorry but I'm watching the news and I am so sick of hearing about this state of the art hospital the Israeli hostages are taken to when they've totally destroyed those hospitals in Gaza.

 

[Wee Nora]

I’ve selfishly been avoiding this thread recently. Struggling with this whole situation and the world in general atm. I just can’t believe what’s happening

 

[Shimmering]

I'm in pieces tonight. I am really struggling with the intensity and length of this horror. Struggling with the horrors I am seeing.

I hope you are all OK.

 

[Veronicaaa]

Protester in Israel -

 

[toomuchstuff]

Just a bit of a brain dump from me to anyone thats the slightest bit interested. Just my opinion, I like a good discussion BUT I will always be pro Palestine.

I am not going to come on here and tell others what they can write and what they can't write but I do hope that we can have civil conversations, I for one would like to hear how any pro Israelis on here can justify how the Palestinians in Gaza and other parts of Palestine have been forced to life. Remembering how someone wrote this is life and death situations we are discussing. I for one only started commenting on Tattler about ditzy fashion influencers so what was said really didnt have any impact on peoples lives at all. Not that I imagine our comments here have any impact on anyones lives really but it would be nice to know that we could maybe inform some about the realities of what's happening in Palestine. Also its a place to vent.

I live what others would call a privilidged white persons life in a country far from this horror but I grew up hearing about these settlements and the fighting that was continually happening in Palestine. My initial opinions have been based on what I heard as a child many many years ago. Although I live very far from Palestine now I have spent many years working in the Middle East and have come into contact with many Arabs so do have a soft spot in my heart for Arabs and that part of the world.

Some thoughts I had this morning, I will always try and check sources, at this stage the main source I believe is Al Jazeera but I came to the realisation that I have a number of distinct disadvantages when it comes to checking things, I don't understand Hebrew and I don't understand Arabic as a result of this I will miss nuance in conversations. This young boy with the bandaged arms, he may not have said he had broken arms. Unless we speak Arabic how can we really know. He may have just said he had damaged/hirt/sore arms which the translator translated as broken, he is a kid he may have just said he had broken arms for dramatic effect, I had a boy his age, I know they can be dramatic, especially in that situation. Hell he has come from a prison I can't even imagine what happened in there or how it affected him.
The letter the hostage wrote about her captives, unfortunately I dont believe all of it, some of it could very well be true, the part about the soldiers treating her child well, I do believe that, I know Arabs they looooove children, I could well imagine them playing with the kids and having time for the kids. Some of the other things she wrote though just seemed a bit too gushy, sickly sweet. But having said that I saw another interview from a hostage who was criticising her captives and there were a few things she said that I didn't believe.

What I am trying to say is I don't think that whether this boy had broken arms or not really matters, fact is he has hurt, whether she wrote that letter doesn't really matter, we will never know the truth. Having said that though what that fecking soldier lied about (the list on the wall, the tunnels, the weapons etc) those details are vital, they dropped all those bombs have destroyed a city based on those lies.
Maybe let us not get bogged down in details like the letter or the broken arms, let's keep looking at the bigger picture at the things that we know are fact, things that can be proved. I am sure that the people who have control over the situation would love to see us arguing over a letter or broken arms rather than the 25,000 tones of bombs dropped on Gaza since Oct 7th, the 15,000 Palestinians killed.

The other difficulty we have is sooo much video, photographs can be faked, how do we know if we are looking at real images or edited images. One set of images I found was a montage of pix of Israelis pointing their guns at children in the street, the images just sort of looked unreal, now I don't know if it was the fact that the topic was soo horrible that I couldn't believe it or the images had been photoshopped.

Thanks to anyone that has ploughed their way through this all, as I said earlier sometimes you just need to vent to have someone to talk to someone who will agree with you. From the river to the sea

 

[Shimmering]

I know what you mean, it's really difficult to deal with on a day to day basis, (Some of my colleagues and me have been berated for just putting a single whatsapp message about a fundraiser for humanitarian aid and one email about attending the pro-ceasefire protest, because some people's 'feelings got hurt'... simply because we want peace ffs) but seeing the resilience of the Palestinians (especially the effects on the babies and small kids) has made me question what can I do to stop this madness, even if it's a small thing. It sort of fuels me to find out more and do something more to help. And the more I look into this, the more shocked I get at what I find out and I get utterly disgusted at what has happened and also at anyone who's supporting this genocide, as well as how the zionist agenda has manipulated our media and government, playing on our emotions and affecting everyone insidiously.
---

We have to stay strong and stay speaking out. Seeing that little boy with his leg amputated affected me terribly as I have a son the same age, he also really reminded me of my son in his personality and mannerisms. And that young lad shows such strength and such character. I couldn't do it. He's a hero and he shouldn't have to be. He should be playing and enjoying an innocent childhood, not experiencing war, destruction, an amputation without anaesthetic. My heart is just broken for the children, for all the people.

Hell isn't deep enough or hot enough for those who enabled this.

 

[Veronicaaa]

The hate in his heart is terrifying. As is the fact he was apparently a National security advisor.