When parents disagree about Primary school place

[Dollenganger]

My daughter lives with me most of the time. Her dad has weekly contact (one night per week).

is anyone else in the situation of not agreeing with which school their child is going to? My daughter has been offered a place at a really good school, 5 minute walk from me with a good reputation. She’s the only one of my children who was able to get in here, because the birth rate is lower this year.

Basically, her dad wants me to drive her to a village school, any village school because he has this stupid idea that village schools are like private schools that you don’t pay for (I have experience of private and village schools and they aren’t!). He won’t agree to the school near me because it’s not a village school. He was exactly the same with his now adult children, driving them 7 miles to a village school every day for years.

The situation is making me ill. I said if he doesn’t agree he needs to go to court. Which is something I really want to avoid but it’s really the only way out of this because I am not using an hours worth of petrol every day and making her day longer when I can walk her to school unless I’m ordered to do it. I will be doing all of the school runs and getting her ready for school. My daughter is also likely to be on the spectrum so I need to be able to prepare her mentally for where she’s going and I can’t.

 

[Rose94]

My daughter lives with me most of the time. Her dad has weekly contact (one night per week).

is anyone else in the situation of not agreeing with which school their child is going to? My daughter has been offered a place at a really good school, 5 minute walk from me with a good reputation. She’s the only one of my children who was able to get in here, because the birth rate is lower this year.

Basically, her dad wants me to drive her to a village school, any village school because he has this stupid idea that village schools are like private schools that you don’t pay for (I have experience of private and village schools and they aren’t!). He won’t agree to the school near me because it’s not a village school. He was exactly the same with his now adult children, driving them 7 miles to a village school every day for years.

The situation is making me ill. I said if he doesn’t agree he needs to go to court. Which is something I really want to avoid but it’s really the only way out of this because I am not using an hours worth of petrol every day and making her day longer when I can walk her to school unless I’m ordered to do it. I will be doing all of the school runs and getting her ready for school. My daughter is also likely to be on the spectrum so I need to be able to prepare her mentally for where she’s going and I can’t.

Just ignore him, tell him you understand what he’s saying but it’s tough. Let him take you to court if he really wants he won’t stand a chance anyway. You’re the primary parent, court would see that the school 5 minutes away is the most convenient for you and your child they won’t force you to send her to a school miles away because of the opinion of her dad who only has her once a week

 

[Dollenganger]

Thank you. I worry, hearing stories about how FC takes the father’s side even if they’re being unreasonable. Before I applied for her school place, he spent months hassling me to move to another area so that our daughter was living in catchment for his school place. The cost of moving to this area would have been at least the same as paying private school fees.

 

[Moth]

Just ignore him, tell him you understand what he’s saying but it’s tough. Let him take you to court if he really wants he won’t stand a chance anyway. You’re the primary parent, court would see that the school 5 minutes away is the most convenient for you and your child they won’t force you to send her to a school miles away because of the opinion of her dad who only has her once a week

It doesn't matter how much time the child spends with each parent, if the father has parental responsibility he should be involved in making important decisions about the child's upbringing. If the parents cannot agree on which school the child should go to, either could ask a court to make a 'specific issue order' or a 'prohibited steps order' but they'll almost certainly have to try mediation first.

Parental responsibility - childlawadvice.org.uk

This page explains the law on parental responsibility, what this means in practice and how a person can acquire parental responsibility.

childlawadvice.org.uk

 

[Rose94]

It doesn't matter how much time the child spends with each parent, if the father has parental responsibility he should be involved in making important decisions about the child's upbringing. If the parents cannot agree on which school the child should go to, either could ask a court to make a 'specific issue order' or a 'prohibited steps order' but they'll almost certainly have to try mediation first.

Parental responsibility - childlawadvice.org.uk

This page explains the law on parental responsibility, what this means in practice and how a person can acquire parental responsibility.

childlawadvice.org.uk

He has patently responsibility yes but it absolutely does matter how much time he spends with her when court take things into account. Courts aren’t going to agree with the decision of a parent who has her one day a week over the parent who has her the other 6 and is the one doing the school runs regardless of parental responsibility. They will look at what the most convenient arrangement is which is clearly the arrangement the original poster wants

 

[Moth]

He has patently responsibility yes but it absolutely does matter how much time he spends with her when court take things into account. Courts aren’t going to agree with the decision of a parent who has her one day a week over the parent who has her the other 6 and is the one doing the school runs regardless of parental responsibility. They will look at what the most convenient arrangement is which is clearly the arrangement the original poster wants

The court will look at what's best for the child not most convenient for the parents. The guidelines to judges in the Children's Act 1989 regarding 'specific issue orders' do not include which parent the child spends most time with. You might think it should. Telling a parent to 'ignore' the other parent's wishes is, IMO, misleading and irresponsible. The court decision on an application for a 'specific issue order' would be based on:

• Wishes and feelings of the child
• The child’s physical, emotional and educational needs
• Effect on the child if circumstances changed
• The characteristics of the child including their age, sex and background
• Whether the child is at a risk of suffering harm or any harm already suffered
• The capability of the child’s parents in fulfilling their needs

... but let's hope it doesn't come to that.

 

[judgejohndeed]

Don’t be worried about going to court. Used to do loads of these, any family judge I’ve ever been in front of would find for you.
It’s not how much time he has her or ignoring what he wants but being realistic about who has to do the ferrying about - he’s being wildly unreasonable expecting you to do all this driving with a perfectly good school nearby without a compelling reason as to why she should go to the further away school, especially because he would presumably only have to do it once a week max. Is he going to pay for your petrol if he gets his way? I suspect not. Also, going to a school an hour away will impact her ability to participate in normal school life - after school clubs make the day unreasonably long if you have to drive an hour after, her friends will not be local, etc and courts place a lot of weight on this.

 

[Dollenganger]

The court will look at what's best for the child not most convenient for the parents.

My choice was based upon what I truly feel is best for my daughter. I’ve even set it out to him in writing. As previously stated, I believe my daughter is on the spectrum and has PDA. Her father agreed. The reasons I chose this school are;

- The head seemed very inclusive and is a trained SENCO. Parents I have spoken to say that children with SEN are well provided for.

- my daughter’s current nursery (which is part of a prep school) think the school will suit her very well and they said the school sets up support for children with SEN very quickly. They said staff also visit the children at nursery before they start.

- the school is part of our community. The children attending will include some from her current nursery and some from the local playgroup she attended. The school is also closely linked with the church where she was baptised and where we go for Christmas services.

- I do not think that it’s in her best interest at 4 years old to spend 1 hour a day in the car. In reception, they come out exhausted. Anything that will make her day shorter will be best for her.
---
Her father wants her to go to a village school at all costs. I think it stems from snobbery. There is no school in the city that he would agree to. His objection to the primary school I want her to go to;

- it’s too big for her. It’s 2 form entry. So 60 per year. He wants her to go to a school which starts with 12 in reception and then mixes 1&2, 3&4 etc so they end up with classes of 30 aftdr

- he thinks she needs Forrest school. I agree the lack of Forrest school is a disadvantage but not enough to not choose the school,

Imo, sending her to a school that is miles away will isolate her from her local community and I also don’t want her to go to such a small school because these schools are underfunded even more than city schools, will not have as much money and ultimately may close.

 

[Rose94]

The court will look at what's best for the child not most convenient for the parents. The guidelines to judges in the Children's Act 1989 regarding 'specific issue orders' do not include which parent the child spends most time with. You might think it should. Telling a parent to 'ignore' the other parent's wishes is, IMO, misleading and irresponsible. The court decision on an application for a 'specific issue order' would be based on:

• Wishes and feelings of the child
• The child’s physical, emotional and educational needs
• Effect on the child if circumstances changed
• The characteristics of the child including their age, sex and background
• Whether the child is at a risk of suffering harm or any harm already suffered
• The capability of the child’s parents in fulfilling their needs

... but let's hope it doesn't come to that.

If my sons dad started demanding to me that i send him to a specific school even though he wouldn’t be the one having to commute there everyday he would be getting told where to stick it and I would be ignoring him to but it bluntly. The court absolutely will take into account how convenient it is for the parent not just the child, if there’s a risk of the child being late because of distance or the parent falling into financial hardship paying to get there everyday of course that will be taken into consideration
Anyway enough legal debates for today

 

[Dollenganger]

The village school starts at 8.40 rather than 8.55 like the city schools in my area which would make it more difficult for us to be on time because of my daughter’s needs. She needs a lot of time to get ready in the mornings because of certain rituals that she has to do before leaving the house. I think it will be a lot less stressful for her if we can walk to school because it will help her process that she is going to school. She will also go into school, knowing that myself and her grandma are very nearby. Isn’t it the case that children in primary school are usually happier if the school is near to their home?

He won’t be able to do any of the school runs because he has a full on job that often takes him out of the area to London for conferences etc.

Secondary school is a bit different, I feel because at that age, it’s reasonable to expect a child to be able to get a bus to school if (for example) a really good school is worth extra journey.

 

[Rose94]

The village school starts at 8.40 rather than 8.55 like the city schools in my area which would make it more difficult for us to be on time because of my daughter’s needs. She needs a lot of time to get ready in the mornings because of certain rituals that she has to do before leaving the house. I think it will be a lot less stressful for her if we can walk to school because it will help her process that she is going to school. She will also go into school, knowing that myself and her grandma are very nearby. Isn’t it the case that children in primary school are usually happier if the school is near to their home?

He won’t be able to do any of the school runs because he has a full on job that often takes him out of the area to London for conferences etc.

Secondary school is a bit different, I feel because at that age, it’s reasonable to expect a child to be able to get a bus to school if (for example) a really good school is worth extra journey.

Honestly don’t stress it. Just calmly explain you understand his reasons but it’s simply unrealistic of him to expect you to do that journey everyday. If he still disagrees then call his bluff and let him take it to court because you’ll 100% win. No judge is going to agree with him standing there going “oh it’s like a private school that you don’t pay for” because it isn’t, compared to your very valid real reasons.

 

[Moth]

My choice was based upon what I truly feel is best for my daughter. I’ve even set it out to him in writing. As previously stated, I believe my daughter is on the spectrum and has PDA. Her father agreed. The reasons I chose this school are;

- The head seemed very inclusive and is a trained SENCO. Parents I have spoken to say that children with SEN are well provided for.

- my daughter’s current nursery (which is part of a prep school) think the school will suit her very well and they said the school sets up support for children with SEN very quickly. They said staff also visit the children at nursery before they start.

- the school is part of our community. The children attending will include some from her current nursery and some from the local playgroup she attended. The school is also closely linked with the church where she was baptised and where we go for Christmas services.

- I do not think that it’s in her best interest at 4 years old to spend 1 hour a day in the car. In reception, they come out exhausted. Anything that will make her day shorter will be best for her.
---
Her father wants her to go to a village school at all costs. I think it stems from snobbery. There is no school in the city that he would agree to. His objection to the primary school I want her to go to;

- it’s too big for her. It’s 2 form entry. So 60 per year. He wants her to go to a school which starts with 12 in reception and then mixes 1&2, 3&4 etc so they end up with classes of 30 aftdr

- he thinks she needs Forrest school. I agree the lack of Forrest school is a disadvantage but not enough to not choose the school,

Imo, sending her to a school that is miles away will isolate her from her local community and I also don’t want her to go to such a small school because these schools are underfunded even more than city schools, will not have as much money and ultimately may close.

That all seems very reasonable and IF your ex decided to seek a court order he would (based on the criteria I posted above) have a very difficult task in convincing a judge. I just wanted to correct the inaccurate assertion that you would automatically win because your daughter spends more time with you and the silly aggressive nonsense that you can just ignore your ex's wishes (not that I think that you've done that). Obviously we wouldn't want 'legal debates' to get in the way of comments about what might happen in court.

 

[Rose94]

That all seems very reasonable and IF your ex decided to seek a court order he would (based on the criteria I posted above) have a very difficult task in convincing a judge. I just wanted to correct the inaccurate assertion that you would automatically win because your daughter spends more time with you and the silly aggressive nonsense that you can just ignore your ex's wishes (not that I think that you've done that). Obviously we wouldn't want 'legal debates' to get in the way of comments about what might happen in court.

Aggressive nonsense? stop being a snowflake, if my ex was throwing around unrealistic demands like that he would be getting ignored. When I said they will consider the fact he spends more time with her it was meant in the way that it’s not him who has to be trailing her to school and back it would be the primary parent. Not aggressive in the slightest he’s just being stupid, simple

 

[judgejohndeed]

Aggressive nonsense? stop being a snowflake, if my ex was throwing around unrealistic demands like that he would be getting ignored. When I said they will consider the fact he spends more time with her it was meant in the way that it’s not him who has to be trailing her to school and back it would be the primary parent. Not aggressive in the slightest he’s just being stupid, simple

If 'ignoring' such a stupid request is 'aggressive', wait until you hear what a judge thinks of this Dad wasting court time in a severely backed up court system when he isn't even going to be the one doing any of the school runs! Arguably controlling behaviour trying to force Dollenganger to do all this travel at her own expense and when it isn't going to be shared just because he 'likes village schools'. I expect a judge would agree that a request like that should be ignored tbh, it's absolutely ludicrous

 

[Dollenganger]

That all seems very reasonable and IF your ex decided to seek a court order he would (based on the criteria I posted above) have a very difficult task in convincing a judge. I just wanted to correct the inaccurate assertion that you would automatically win because your daughter spends more time with you and the silly aggressive nonsense that you can just ignore your ex's wishes (not that I think that you've done that). Obviously we wouldn't want 'legal debates' to get in the way of comments about what might happen in court.

Yes, don’t worry I know that he has a right to help make decisions about our dd but if he’s that sure she mustn’t go to the school near her house then he needs to get legal advice and I told him this. He will not want social workers poking around in our business so I suspect that’s why he hasn’t taken it yet and is hoping that he can brow beat me instead.

Incidentally, he did phone the LA and they told him that he was free to make his own application alongside mine which he did but he tried to pretend that dd lives at his address near this village school . This sort of thing is frowned upon as far as I know because village schools are for children who live in that village - it’s just common sense. And you aren’t allowed to use an address which isn’t the child’s main one. This sort of thing is viewed as dishonest.

I really want to avoid court, of course. But we seem to be going around in circles and it would help my dd to know where she’s going.

 

[Pinklady567]

Smaller village schools won’t have the staff and funding for SEN children. Your child would be better off in a larger school as they will have more access to resources and larger funds to be able to help your daughter. Smaller village school can’t cope with this.

 

[Ssshhhhh06]

I have worked in tiny village schools, private schools and a number of larger/'normal sized' schools within towns and cities. I can whole heartedly say that SEN provision is markedly better in the larger state primary schools in my experience. They have the better ratios of staff, funding, space etc and any EHCPs are followed religiously. Forest School is lovely but it is something your child can participate in outside of school with dedicated companies if available in your area. My current school has an extensive Forest School however we rarely get chance to use it due to the busy curriculum. Just having the forest on site doesn't mean it's going to be accessed daily/regularly from my experience.

 

[Dollenganger]

I have worked in tiny village schools, private schools and a number of larger/'normal sized' schools within towns and cities. I can whole heartedly say that SEN provision is markedly better in the larger state primary schools in my experience. They have the better ratios of staff, funding, space etc and any EHCPs are followed religiously. Forest School is lovely but it is something your child can participate in outside of school with dedicated companies if available in your area. My current school has an extensive Forest School however we rarely get chance to use it due to the busy curriculum. Just having the forest on site doesn't mean it's going to be accessed daily/regularly from my experience.

Smaller village schools won’t have the staff and funding for SEN children. Your child would be better off in a larger school as they will have more access to resources and larger funds to be able to help your daughter. Smaller village school can’t cope with this.

Thank you to both of you for answering this. I very much agree - it makes far more sense that a larger school will have more resources. And space as you say. As an ND person myself, I would feel better in a school where I had space to actually get away from other people if I needed to.