New job - possible bad reference from old job

[Mrs McCarthy]

Hi everyone, need some help and advice about leaving an old job and starting a new one.

Little bit of a background story - in May 2021 I started a new job in a small solicitor’s firm as an admin/legal secretary. Never worked in that field before. I was enjoying the job, but not my boss, or the fact that there was zero training (had to learn everything myself through doing the job and making lots of mistakes), had problems with the way they manage things (like change their mind at which case is a priority at a moment’s notice and I would get the blame for focusing on the wrong thing). I realised that I was struggling in October to keep up, so was staying late pretty much every day (sometimes to the point when I was doing 10 to 15 extra hours a week). In November they have put me on PIP, and I saw it at the boss planning to fire me. I applied for a new job at a huge solicitor’s firm with lots of structure, big admin department and I am meant to leave for the new job in 6 weeks. Two days before I have given my notice, my boss took me aside and said that since being on PIP I have improved, and although they are still not happy, and I need to improve more, they are not planning to fire me. I want to leave anyway - I no longer want to work there.

My issue is the reference from my old workplace. I am worried that they are going to give me a horrible reference, and that I will not get the new job (even though I signed the contract) but I will also lose the old job as well. And I have just messed up an old case today, so I am even more worried now. Am I even allowed to ask my boss to not give me a bad reference? What do I do?

 

[Pass_the_popcorn#2]

Hi everyone, need some help and advice about leaving an old job and starting a new one.

Little bit of a background story - in May 2021 I started a new job in a small solicitor’s firm as an admin/legal secretary. Never worked in that field before. I was enjoying the job, but not my boss, or the fact that there was zero training (had to learn everything myself through doing the job and making lots of mistakes), had problems with the way they manage things (like change their mind at which case is a priority at a moment’s notice and I would get the blame for focusing on the wrong thing). I realised that I was struggling in October to keep up, so was staying late pretty much every day (sometimes to the point when I was doing 10 to 15 extra hours a week). In November they have put me on PIP, and I saw it at the boss planning to fire me. I applied for a new job at a huge solicitor’s firm with lots of structure, big admin department and I am meant to leave for the new job in 6 weeks. Two days before I have given my notice, my boss took me aside and said that since being on PIP I have improved, and although they are still not happy, and I need to improve more, they are not planning to fire me. I want to leave anyway - I no longer want to work there.

My issue is the reference from my old workplace. I am worried that they are going to give me a horrible reference, and that I will not get the new job (even though I signed the contract) but I will also lose the old job as well. And I have just messed up an old case today, so I am even more worried now. Am I even allowed to ask my boss to not give me a bad reference? What do I do?

I didn’t think a company can/is allowed to give a bad reference.
Usually references are really factual such as: Joe bloggs was employed here from this period to that, in the role of etc etc

I wouldn’t worry at all about a bad reference.
Good luck in your new job, your old one sounds really stressful

X

 

[candyland_]

They can’t give you a bad reference, just a basic one. Good luck.

 

[larderdrama]

Don't worry they can't give you a bad reference!

Good luck with your new job!

 

[Very traditional]

Employers can give you a bad reference, I know it's a commmon myth that they can't but I work in HR in local government and we often have references sent in that aren't great, sometimes they're awful, in this situation what we do is give them To the line manager of the incoming member of staff to read through and decide if they wish to proceed with the employment. Very often the incoming staff member will be aware that they may not get a good reference and will have explained the reason why when offered the job or prior to the reference stage. It's then at the managers discretion whether to proceed, often we will seek an additional reference as back up or rely on the probation period to make a judgement.

Some employers only provide a factual reference which will just state the dates you were employed, others will do a factual reference but include disciplinary actions, others will provide full written references and answer the whole questionnaire we send out.

If you're worried I would try and find out what type of reference your current employer provide. Failing that, speak to the new job and explain the issues you faced in your current job and how you would overcome them/ different circumstances etc etc and I'm sure it will all be fine. Employers realise that all people are human and all workforces are different and not everything clicks every time.

 

[Warpaint]

I think 'bad' references now normally just state something like 'Warpaint worked for this company from 2014-2022' and little else. Which I guess will be a kind of code for not so good employee within HR.

 

[Begborrowsteal]

I think 'bad' references now normally just state something like 'Warpaint worked for this company from 2014-2022' and little else. Which I guess will be a kind of code for not so good employee within HR.

Nah, not necessarily. A lot just do tombstone references now, bare minimum. We do them (im in HR) for all, we dont do anything but employment dates and job title; good or bad.

 

[Very traditional]

I think 'bad' references now normally just state something like 'Warpaint worked for this company from 2014-2022' and little else. Which I guess will be a kind of code for not so good employee within HR.

While a lot of companies (especially bigger ones, plus local authorities like us) just do a standardised factual reference across the board (as mentioned above) whether good or bad, lots of other companies give thorough, honest references. We ask for strengths and weaknesses, disciplinary action plus we have tick boxes for the basics like attendance, punctuality, relationship with others, etc with options of excellent, good, fair or poor with a request to elaborate on any fair or poor points. We also ask would they re-employ or have any hesitation recommending the candidate. I would say for very 10 references we request 8 come back fully completed and 2 come back as standardised with a company policy disclaimer stating that they don't provide in depth info and that it's not a reflection on the particular employee.

 

[Begborrowsteal]

While a lot of companies (especially bigger ones, plus local authorities like us) just do a standardised factual reference across the board (as mentioned above) whether good or bad, lots of other companies give thorough, honest references. We ask for strengths and weaknesses, disciplinary action plus we have tick boxes for the basics like attendance, punctuality, relationship with others, etc with options of excellent, good, fair or poor with a request to elaborate on any fair or poor points. We also ask would they re-employ or have any hesitation recommending the candidate. I would say for very 10 references we request 8 come back fully completed and 2 come back as standardised with a company policy disclaimer stating that they don't provide in depth info and that it's not a reflection on the particular employee.

Oh really? We rarely get the full reference forms back. It's a surprise if we do! The endless consent confirmations just to get a tombstone reference are so annoying!

 

[JustAnotherWan]

This makes me feel sick to my stomach as your situation sounds so similar to one I was in a few years ago, also in a legal practice but as an receptionist/trainee legal secretary The female solicitor/owner had me doing things for her personal life such as paying her home bills and downloading forms to enrol her child in school during work hours, and would switch from task to task on a whim and then talk down to me in front of customers and other employees. I used to work through my lunch to keep up with the workload and then she'd come in and say "oh that wasn't priority at all" about what she'd said needed doing, and then give out for things that she'd never mentioned needing done not being done yet because I was supposed to be a mind reader I actually had a breakdown, full on panic attack in her office one day trying to explain that it was too much for one person doing the work of 2, and she laughed and said that I was just an incompetent little girl and that nobody would like me after the meeting because I had shown myself to be pathetic as anxiety was a form of weakness I also left to go to a larger law firm and I was honest, I said we had personal differences because they didn't treat people with basic respect, and the new firm accepted what I said and acknowledged that they were very aware of the other firm and that solicitor in particular had a bad reputation.

They can give you a bad/basic reference- but chances are other solicitors and firms know exactly what they're like because alot if not all the legal secretaries/receptionists talk to each other and the solicitors they work for.

 

[Snippysnips]

They can only give you a bad reference if it is bad, if you were someone who say slept in every morning or was constantly late after every break etc, then it can be mentioned to the new employers, however they cannot make up a bad reference, if you have had good time keeping, been trying with the job, an have been doing everything requested of you then they cannot make up that that was not the case, I also think that wither you got on with your boss or not cannot be reason for a bad reference as it was a personal reason and not somthing that affected your work, I HATED my boss an it was very well known even to my next employer but it was personal an he couldn't say bad about my work as it didn't affect my work so he couldn't give a bad reference

 

[HelloStereo]

They can give you a bad reference but it has to be factual. I think many companies avoid doing this though because of potential legal ramifications you could bring about if the job offer is then withdrawn. Many just like to err on the safe side.

I started a job in November 2021 that I really didn't like and left yesterday. I am also worried about references but because I was there for such a short time I just left it off my CV entirely

 

[Sunflower91]

I’ve been worried about this too in the past - i left a workplace on really bad terms so rather than put my boss/ manager I put a colleague with a different job title to mine that id worked closely with on a lot of projects. In the end I needn’t have worried because all they asked my references was if I’d worked there.

 

[ouroboros]

They can just opt to give you a basic, factual reference, i.e. how long you worked there for, what tasked you performed etc., without stating you were any good at your work. They cannot be disparaging, it's against the law. I doubt they will anyway. I think the fact that they've said they weren't going to fire you means they obviously don't want you to leave. I've had some stinking experiences and been astounded at the good references I've received, but likewise with people I haven't gelled with as their manager, I've always tried to give decent references because it's pathetic trying to ruin people just because you didn't get on or they weren't that good through lack of experience. Unless they're really lazy, rude or bullies, I tend to stay professional and civil.

 

[Rxt156]

It sounds like you have done absolutely the right thing by moving on. Well done for getting the new job.
They shouldn’t give you a bad reference as you could argue that they said you have improved lately

 

[Reverend]

When I was working for a university we were usually asked for a past students reference, but we always did a standard as were informed if we gave a bad reference we could be sued, and if we gave a positive reference and they tuned out to be terrible or did something illegal we could be held liable (the uni did a lot nursing, social work, and other sensitive work etc.).

Hilariously many agencies/employers used to ask us for a reference for students from the 70's and 80's and occasionally when I said we can't give a personal reference as a) We don't do that, and b) There is no one still here from then, they would respond can't you find someone who was working at the time? I would respond, would you have records from employees from 50 years ago?

 

[1001 others]

Maybe it depends on where you are in the world, but in my experience a boss absolutely can give a bad reference - they're responding to questions and if asked something such as, "Would you re-employ 1001 again" and they say "No" then that's open to interpretation and/or further probing.

I would explain the situation to the recruiter. If there is someone/s else in the company who can speak well of your abilities and potential (it can be a peer), ask them to be a back-up referee - the recruiter will no doubt still want to speak to your manager, but whatever he says might be offset by what someone/s else in the same company has to say (especially if your boss is known to be difficult).

 

[loobyscoobydoo]

I used to be HR admin for a small law firm, our references only confirmed job title and dates worked at the firm as standard, we didn't give any further information than that. Try not to worry too much, it sounds more like you're just not the right fit for that particular role rather than being a bad employee I.e. Timekeeping, behavioural issues.

Best of luck in your new role!