Liam Payne #5

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Being in an abusive relationship is so incredibly complex, there’s a reason why women go back to their abusers and not the police. There’s a reason why so many women try to get cases dropped and often then end up dead.

If she didn’t go to the police I wouldn’t be surprised, there’s a huge stigma and shame around it, she may not of even realised fully the level of abuse there was.
Oh 10000% with bells and knobs and everything else on I agree.

But stigma and shame doesn't really apply to writing a whole book, and then doing podcasts or lives.

She has a position that most abuse victims could only dream of in terms of her privilege, but also her ability to help others with her reach.

One simple statement rather than a whole speculative book would have achieved the same, and do the cease and desist at the same time, make it clear you're following the correct legal channels, and for any further comments please see my legal team etc, which I think essentially ended up being near enough her representatives statement by the time of the cease and desist anyway?

Luckily she seems to have been largely left alone now bar some bizarre TikToks including her with Beyonce or Roger or something, and I hope it stays that way, she's said her piece, he's dead, maybe Teardrops was his apology maybe it wasn't.

She's young still and maybe in 20 years time she'll wish she hadn't worn her heart on her sleeve in such a public way.

I still stand by though that any adult involved anywhere with any of them at that point had a safeguarding duty to that little boy over anything, and it's just so absolutely effing tit that he's the one who's lost out essentially all along, and the only person who could have made that right can no longer do so.

Honestly, I lost a parent around his age, and myself and any others who've experienced the same wish that Liam understood none of it was worth it, not the music, the girls, the fame, the money, the substances and the only temporary fix that provides, only him and B mattered.
 
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I totally agree with that, especially for John and Jane Doe, but for Liam Payne the once golden boy of 1D? They'd have snatched it up to make an example of him surely.

Shes not a nobody to be fobbed off, she has a massive legal background behind her.

And she's got to have some sort of evidence, or it's a riskier game again writing the book and 'calling him out' online etc.

I'm in the UK where emotional abuse is just as illegal as physical abuse, same with coercive control, and if the book is absolute fact, she'd have him on all three not just one.

I'm not Maya of course, but if I had her power and privilege and if I'd done the right thing and reported it to the police and been ignored that's what id be shouting from the rooftops, not that his parents had a row over some apple crumble and he sent a dick pic to my mother.
BIB: Ask Amber Heard how that worked out for her. Johnny Depp was the golden boy of Hollywood way before Liam was even born and Amber's allegations against him were dismissed from the get-go. Celebrities are never 'made an example of'. They have too much wealth and power.

I get your point that Maya could have used her privilege and legal power to shine a light on the mistreatment of women by the justice system. At the same time, if an ex of mine sent dick pics to my mother, I'd be screenshotting those messages and sending them to all his family and friends (with dick pic blurred, obviously). And if he was famous, I'd be posting about it all over social media. If you try and make my mother feel uncomfortable because I've told you to leave me alone, I'm going to make sure everyone knows what a pathetic disgusting creature you are. I don't care how reactive, childish or petty that is.
 
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His sons safeguarding trumps whether she wanted to report it to the police or not, he was and still is a minor, every adult involved with him in his life no matter how small a part, has a part to play. They weren't some us against the world Romeo and Juliet romance, he already had an existing responsibility that always had to supersede that.
That's correct. He had an existing responsibility, it was up to him to put his child first.
Why is always up to women to safeguard everyone else before themselves? If Maya didn't go to the police, perhaps that was her way of safeguarding herself. B was/is very much being safeguarded by those around him if the reports about Liam only being allowed supervised contact are true. For all we know, Liam's behaviour towards Maya contributed to that decision. I doubt it, but it's possible.
 
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BIB: Ask Amber Heard how that worked out for her. Johnny Depp was the golden boy of Hollywood way before Liam was even born and Amber's allegations against him were dismissed from the get-go. Celebrities are never 'made an example of'. They have too much wealth and power.

I get your point that Maya could have used her privilege and legal power to shine a light on the mistreatment of women by the justice system. At the same time, if an ex of mine sent dick pics to my mother, I'd be screenshotting those messages and sending them to all his family and friends (with dick pic blurred, obviously). And if he was famous, I'd be posting about it all over social media. If you try and make my mother feel uncomfortable because I've told you to leave me alone, I'm going to make sure everyone knows what a pathetic disgusting creature you are. I don't care how reactive, childish or petty that is.
They weren't dismissed...johnny Depp literally lost the majority of his career overnight after Amber's allegations, so many companies dropped him. Until a person is found innocent many brands won't go near a person especially when it's a man who's been violent to a woman. Brands don't want to be seen as supporting a domestic abuser especially in this world where nothing can really be covered up anymore
 
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That's correct. He had an existing responsibility, it was up to him to put his child first.
Why is always up to women to safeguard everyone else before themselves? If Maya didn't go to the police, perhaps that was her way of safeguarding herself. B was/is very much being safeguarded by those around him if the reports about Liam only being allowed supervised contact are true. For all we know, Liam's behaviour towards Maya contributed to that decision. I doubt it, but it's possible.
Of course it's his responsibility primarily, but it's pretty unlikely he'd raise safeguarding concerns about himself, very few parents do and as a long standing addict with mental health issues and is also famous I'd say that'd write Liam off self refering any concerns.

I didn't say it was women's responsibility, I said it was anyone around them all at that point, I'm talking Liam, Maya, Cheryl all the Paynes, Henrys, any management etc, anyone who has concerns regarding abuse no matter how small, if there's a child around those concerns have to be raised, maybe they were or maybe it was later with the overdoses and that's why he then seemed to be supervised only.

Its not women only, it's all adults,they all have that same duty towards a minor with a parent in a potentially abusive relationship. If this was Cheryl I'd hope the exact same would apply.

Children's services would not be impressed if none of the adults had done what was needed to be done, and sadly that would have had to include reporting Liam to the police if he had been abusive, not just Maya, but any of them who potentially knew.

Luckily B has stayed safe, but there's plenty of children out there who haven't.
 
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Oh 10000% with bells and knobs and everything else on I agree.

But stigma and shame doesn't really apply to writing a whole book, and then doing podcasts or lives.

She has a position that most abuse victims could only dream of in terms of her privilege, but also her ability to help others with her reach.

One simple statement rather than a whole speculative book would have achieved the same, and do the cease and desist at the same time, make it clear you're following the correct legal channels, and for any further comments please see my legal team etc, which I think essentially ended up being near enough her representatives statement by the time of the cease and desist anyway?

Luckily she seems to have been largely left alone now bar some bizarre TikToks including her with Beyonce or Roger or something, and I hope it stays that way, she's said her piece, he's dead, maybe Teardrops was his apology maybe it wasn't.

She's young still and maybe in 20 years time she'll wish she hadn't worn her heart on her sleeve in such a public way.

I still stand by though that any adult involved anywhere with any of them at that point had a safeguarding duty to that little boy over anything, and it's just so absolutely effing tit that he's the one who's lost out essentially all along, and the only person who could have made that right can no longer do so.

Honestly, I lost a parent around his age, and myself and any others who've experienced the same wish that Liam understood none of it was worth it, not the music, the girls, the fame, the money, the substances and the only temporary fix that provides, only him and B mattered.
She isn’t responsible for Bear and she also isn’t responsible for setting an example for other victims as to what to do if you’ve been abused.

I do agree with you if the team surrounding Liam were witnesses to his behaviour towards Maya/women then they should have done something about it and not turned a blind eye. But that’s not solely to do with safeguarding Bear, but also safeguarding the women Liam may have been abusive towards. This includes Maya.

But let’s face it, cover ups of this type are a tale as old as time and it’s naive for anyone to think it doesn’t happen anymore.

If you want to hold Maya to a higher standard of victim due to her wealth then maybe at least hold Liam to the same standard. He had all the money in the world to get the help he needed to heal from his addiction and become a better dad. But he didn’t.

He was a crappy dad who moved to another continent to be with his girlfriend. I don’t care how often he FaceTimed or how he was with Bear on the occasions he was there in person or how much he financially supported. No parent who loved and prioritised their child would move to another country and leave their child behind. That alone makes him a crappy dad and would have probably caused Bear emotional harm already. That boy was screwed by his dad’s neglectful behaviour whether Liam lived or died. And that’s nobody else’s responsibility. I find Liam’s death a tragic, senseless waste of life but I’m not going to sugarcoat his choices and behaviours.
 
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Being wealthy and having access to the best treatments doesn't necessarily mean you'll beat the addiction, that betrays a complete lack of understanding on what addiction is. And it wouldn't be such a big societal problem if it were that easy to treat. It would also be absent from the wealthy population by that line of argument and yet it clearly isn't. Liam did go to numerous treatments and rehabs (he even spent 100 days in one), that doesn't guarantee you'll never relapse though.
 
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She isn’t responsible for Bear and she also isn’t responsible for setting an example for other victims as to what to do if you’ve been abused.

I do agree with you if the team surrounding Liam were witnesses to his behaviour towards Maya/women then they should have done something about it and not turned a blind eye. But that’s not solely to do with safeguarding Bear, but also safeguarding the women Liam may have been abusive towards. This includes Maya.

But let’s face it, cover ups of this type are a tale as old as time and it’s naive for anyone to think it doesn’t happen anymore.

If you want to hold Maya to a higher standard of victim due to her wealth then maybe at least hold Liam to the same standard. He had all the money in the world to get the help he needed to heal from his addiction and become a better dad. But he didn’t.

He was a crappy dad who moved to another continent to be with his girlfriend. I don’t care how often he FaceTimed or how he was with Bear on the occasions he was there in person or how much he financially supported. No parent who loved and prioritised their child would move to another country and leave their child behind. That alone makes him a crappy dad and would have probably caused Bear emotional harm already. That boy was screwed by his dad’s neglectful behaviour whether Liam lived or died. And that’s nobody else’s responsibility. I find Liam’s death a tragic, senseless waste of life but I’m not going to sugarcoat his choices and behaviours.
I think what I'm trying to say is they were basically a blended family right? They were engaged etc, Maya probably was planning the future with the knowledge she'd have some role in the boys life.
Protect one, and the minor has to come first, but it then does help protect the other in some way?

Both B and Maya deserved better from those around them, and of course ultimately as sad as it is from Liam himself.

I'm sure he'd even admit that himself to an extent, regarding Maya he did admit it somewhat in the diary of the CEO interview was it, saying he'd hurt people etc?
Obviously wouldn't have expected him to publicly announce he knew he was failing his son though, just because of the crap that'd then land on Cheryl and B.

That's kind of another thing I guess is up for debate, was he a crappy dad or a sick one?
Either of course have a ridiculous amount of impact on B, who's sadly the one who's lost out on the most either way.

I do think the story of him moving to America for Kate though is a bit of injustice to her to be fair, I think she just took that one on the chin with a fob off story of how she was 'cold' etc, but it seems like it was more of a Roger and Liam plan, renting a house from Roger's friend, Roger helping with therapists etc.

I guess celebrities definitely live differently to us as well, they seem to think nothing of a quick flight across the Atlantic, Louis for example seems to be seen in equal amounts in the UK and US, even bringing his son back with him sometimes etc.
 
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Being wealthy and having access to the best treatments doesn't necessarily mean you'll beat the addiction, that betrays a complete lack of understanding on what addiction is. And it wouldn't be such a big societal problem if it were that easy to treat. It would also be absent from the wealthy population by that line of argument and yet it clearly isn't. Liam did go to numerous treatments and rehabs (he even spent 100 days in one), that doesn't guarantee you'll never relapse though.
But that’s my point. People want to criticise Maya for not doing more if she was a victim of abuse because she had the money and privilege to do something. Why are the rules different for her when we know there are many other factors that make it hard for abuse victims to go through the justice system? Just like money alone won’t help an addict?
 
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I think what I'm trying to say is they were basically a blended family right? They were engaged etc, Maya probably was planning the future with the knowledge she'd have some role in the boys life.
Protect one, and the minor has to come first, but it then does help protect the other in some way?

Both B and Maya deserved better from those around them, and of course ultimately as sad as it is from Liam himself.

I'm sure he'd even admit that himself to an extent, regarding Maya he did admit it somewhat in the diary of the CEO interview was it, saying he'd hurt people etc?
Obviously wouldn't have expected him to publicly announce he knew he was failing his son though, just because of the crap that'd then land on Cheryl and B.

That's kind of another thing I guess is up for debate, was he a crappy dad or a sick one?
Either of course have a ridiculous amount of impact on B, who's sadly the one who's lost out on the most either way.

I do think the story of him moving to America for Kate though is a bit of injustice to her to be fair, I think she just took that one on the chin with a fob off story of how she was 'cold' etc, but it seems like it was more of a Roger and Liam plan, renting a house from Roger's friend, Roger helping with therapists etc.

I guess celebrities definitely live differently to us as well, they seem to think nothing of a quick flight across the Atlantic, Louis for example seems to be seen in equal amounts in the UK and US, even bringing his son back with him sometimes etc.
I don’t blame Kate at all for Liam moving to the US. Even if it was for a different reason, that’s still a choice he made and is entirely on him. I know celebs can fly more often but I really don’t think there is any substitute for being in the same country. What if there was an emergency with Bear, even with access to a private plane at all times, you are still always a long haul flight away.

Are we really going to excuse every decision Liam made on his addiction?
 
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I don’t blame Kate at all for Liam moving to the US. Even if it was for a different reason, that’s still a choice he made and is entirely on him. I know celebs can fly more often but I really don’t think there is any substitute for being in the same country. What if there was an emergency with Bear, even with access to a private plane at all times, you are still always a long haul flight away.

Are we really going to excuse every decision Liam made on his addiction?
I’m torn on the addiction/poor behaviour debate; however, given that Liam was an addict I’m not sure it was necessarily any worse for him to have been away from Bear. If he was only trusted with supervised contact, the relationship must have already been difficult. Him being down the road or in the US wouldn’t have changed that for Bear, imo.
 
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Are we really going to excuse every decision Liam made on his addiction?
If addiction is classed as a sickness, then yes I guess we have to.
And it's not an excuse, it's an understanding, a comprehension of how someone has got to where they are.

I've quoted it before but I will again, but for the UK where Liam remained a citizen until his death, if you treat her as our potential international representative of the subject maybe since she's out future Queen....

“Addiction is not a choice. It is a serious mental health condition that could affect any one of us,” Kate, 42, wrote in her supportive message ahead of the start of Addiction Awareness Week on Nov. 30.


To put our future Queens name to this, shows that the study and research is there, to support it's an illness just like any other.
 
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I’m torn on the addiction/poor behaviour debate; however, given that Liam was an addict I’m not sure it was necessarily any worse for him to have been away from Bear. If he was only trusted with supervised contact, the relationship must have already been difficult. Him being down the road or in the US wouldn’t have changed that for Bear, imo.
In that sense it might have worked out better for Bear to have some distance but I just think for a parent to choose to go live abroad away from their child is just really crappy. I don’t see how that can be blamed on sickness/addiction.

There was no good outcome for Bear in his relationship with his dad and I find it really hard to have sympathy for Liam in that respect. I appreciate addiction is an illness but he still had capacity with some of the choices he made. He still had responsibility to get better for himself and his son even if it was incredibly hard to do so.
 
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If addiction is classed as a sickness, then yes I guess we have to.
And it's not an excuse, it's an understanding, a comprehension of how someone has got to where they are.

I've quoted it before but I will again, but for the UK where Liam remained a citizen until his death, if you treat her as our potential international representative of the subject maybe since she's out future Queen....

“Addiction is not a choice. It is a serious mental health condition that could affect any one of us,” Kate, 42, wrote in her supportive message ahead of the start of Addiction Awareness Week on Nov. 30.


To put our future Queens name to this, shows that the study and research is there, to support it's an illness just like any other.
That’s not saying we have to excuse every poor decision he’s made as addiction related.
 
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In that sense it might have worked out better for Bear to have some distance but I just think for a parent to choose to go live abroad away from their child is just really crappy. I don’t see how that can be blamed on sickness/addiction.

There was no good outcome for Bear in his relationship with his dad and I find it really hard to have sympathy for Liam in that respect. I appreciate addiction is an illness but he still had capacity with some of the choices he made. He still had responsibility to get better for himself and his son even if it was incredibly hard to do so.
I agree with what you've said, and I think we've loosely debated it on this thread before around capacity.

I know we're working within the limits of a system, but a system that allows someone to take potentially an insane amount of substances, and climb down a balcony, with an existing history of doing so to escape situations they didn't want to be in, when those closest to him have been raising concerns for a historic period and keep their capacity is just insane.

I think we'll all go back and for until the end of time if we could over whether Liam failed or whether the system, society, management etc failed Liam.

Overall though, something has to change, with our view of celebrity, mental health, addiction, the inherent shitiness of management and PR.

We've seen before with Britney it isn't always necessarily the answer, but we've got to start improving somewhere surely?

It won't give B back his father, nor Geoff and Karen their son, Nicola and Ruth their brother, Kate her partner, Maya her atonement, nor Liam his own life or a chance of redemption, but something has to change somewhere 😕
 
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In that sense it might have worked out better for Bear to have some distance but I just think for a parent to choose to go live abroad away from their child is just really crappy. I don’t see how that can be blamed on sickness/addiction.

There was no good outcome for Bear in his relationship with his dad and I find it really hard to have sympathy for Liam in that respect. I appreciate addiction is an illness but he still had capacity with some of the choices he made. He still had responsibility to get better for himself and his son even if it was incredibly hard to do so.
This is the crux of the whole situation for me. I can understand a parent moving away from their child for treatment or to get away from bad influences, but there were points when he was sober and even then he wasn't physically present. Involving 3rd parties in the discussion is irrelevant because, as sad as it is for some to understand (in general, I'm not directing this at anyone), he put his wants over the needs of his son. Choosing to go to Argentina when he had a home near his son was a prime example of that.

Ultimately, I think a lot of what we're debating here will become clearer in the coming weeks/months. Timelines, relationships, diagnoses, everything messy will come out in the trials, unfortunately.
 
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This is the crux of the whole situation for me. I can understand a parent moving away from their child for treatment or to get away from bad influences, but there were points when he was sober and even then he wasn't physically present. Involving 3rd parties in the discussion is irrelevant because, as sad as it is for some to understand (in general, I'm not directing this at anyone), he put his wants over the needs of his son. Choosing to go to Argentina when he had a home near his son was a prime example of that.

Ultimately, I think a lot of what we're debating here will become clearer in the coming weeks/months. Timelines, relationships, diagnoses, everything messy will come out in the trials, unfortunately.
That's a really good take.
To be fair even clean I think he had enough mental health issues and demons for Cheryl or childrens services to be sceptical still about having him alone, and I can only be glad that it looks like someone whether that was Geoff, Cheryl or Joan etc was there to supervise that, which is no easy ask for any of them, especially for Geoff who clearly had a great love and feeling of responsibility to them both, but ultimately knew his responsibility at that point had to be to B, especially with Liam's either capability of not being able to or unwillingness to do so.

Like you said, if he was being externally manipulated by Roger or anyone to make the decions he did will likely become clear, equally if he was really in such a state he should never have been left with any capability will probably also become quickly apparent too 😕
 
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Who is this women and why is she attaching Liam's name to a GFM? I thought his family set up something so fans could donate to GOSH if they wished.
IMG_20250204_135807.jpg
 
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Moving to the US doesn't seem ideal to be away from Bear but we also don't know the ins and out of why exactly that decision was made. However, I do think it's worth giving Liam credit where it's due. In late 2020 he moved from London to Chalfont St Giles to be near Cheryl and Bear and was living there for almost 4 years before the move to the US. Even addictions and stuff aside, it must be incredibly challenging to juggle a music career, which necessarily involves tonnes of travelling, and being present for your child. Inevitably you're going to see them less than an average person who works a 9-5 unless you're willing to give up work to become a full time parent, which is a big ask for someone in their 20s who's just left one of the most successful bands in history. It would be interesting to consider how different it would have been if he'd been Cheryl's age, or if both Liam and Cheryl were in their 20s and had active careers when Bear was born. I said it before but it just wasn't the right time for Liam to become a parent.
 
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