Constance Marten and Mark Gordon Case #5

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Ooh I don’t know. It might have to be put forward during the trial. @Dogmuck can by you help?

Actually if they raised it during the trial it might have an impact on the jury verdict - if someone was under coercive control they could arguably be found not guilty because they were under duress?

(not saying she was under CC! We’re all on the same page there)
Sorry sweets not been following this just popping in and out, see I’ve been tagged and by the time I’ve seen it things have move on.

Not sure what you’re asking me here, can you enlarge? X
 
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Sorry sweets not been following this just popping in and out, see I’ve been tagged and by the time I’ve seen it things have move on.

Not sure what you’re asking me here, can you enlarge? X
@HistrionicSites was wondering if coercive control over CM by MG would / could be used as mitigation for her but I thought it would be raised as part of her defence (if it were to be raised at all) because it could mean a change in verdict for her.

So basically can coercive control be mitigation in sentencing?

IMG_8237.jpeg
 
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OK, I’m not going to win regarding poor, hard done by Mark. Fair enough.
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No, for when he was deported back to Britain in 2010, and for the next 6 years.
Studying is hard work, even if you have time on your hands in prison I’d guess. Perhaps it wasn’t on offer, perhaps he had no interest if it was on offer. And I’d imagine once he was released and deported, survival (financial) would have been the priority not taking a further education course. For plenty of people, academia holds no interest.
 
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Not a single person has said poor, hard done by Mark have they? Just thoughts and opinions on his life from the very little we know.
Well, no one has to come right out and say it.
‘If he really did commit the crime’ or words to that effect, kind of says a lot.
BTW if Myra Hindley was permitted to enrol for an OU degree then I’m pretty sure MG would be able to as well.
When he was returned to this country obviously.
 
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I don't know. There were photos of her visiting them after they'd been removed from her care. Sometimes birth parents stay in their kids lives even after adoption.

Has this article been posted before?

A quote from it:
The friend said she did not know how Ms Marten had met Gordon, but she claimed that her family had become concerned about her being with him.

'They looked into his past and found out that he had been in jail in the US. They were worried because of his record and made her aware of it. Her answer was to batton down the hatches and stay with him.

'She is a very loyal person, but also very stubborn. That is when she just dropped off the face of the earth in around 2015 or 2016.'

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So that goes someway to explain how she ended up estranged from her family.
Thank you for sharing, two interesting things from that
A) Victoria is a name in the family
B) The dad’s statement is very much suggesting CM’s victimhood in how it’s phrased, so I’m even more surprised to see she’s not been inclined/persuaded to run with that in court as he’d basically handed it to her before she’d been captured!
 
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Studying is hard work, even if you have time on your hands in prison I’d guess. Perhaps it wasn’t on offer, perhaps he had no interest if it was on offer. And I’d imagine once he was released and deported, survival (financial) would have been the priority not taking a further education course. For plenty of people, academia holds no interest.
I know that. My original point, so long ago, being that he as an individual didn’t seem to have gone down the route of improving his lot through education. Some do (especially when they’ve hit rock bottom) some don’t. Seems he didn’t.
 
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@HistrionicSites was wondering if coercive control over CM by MG would / could be used as mitigation for her but I thought it would be raised as part of her defence (if it were to be raised at all) because it could mean a change in verdict for her.

So basically can coercive control be mitigation in sentencing?

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The role of the defence during trial stage is to refute the evidence put forward by the prosecution to put doh t in the minds of the jury that the prosecution have it wrong. The defence don’t have to prove anything.

So yes, cc could be part of mitigation in any sentencing. If one or both are found guilty of the manslaughter charge, there will be pre sentencing reports and cc would be part of that.

It seems to me, from what has been reported, this is very much a joint defence (for want of a better word).FWIW my view is that the evidence put forward by the prosecution so far, has not been strong and therefore the defence have not had to vigorously defend. Things may change when it comes to any evidence put forward as to the cause of victorias death and when she died. I expect there to be some dispute over those findings.

The prosecution will need to prove that CM and MG caused victorias death and they will also need to prove when she died.
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Thank you for sharing, two interesting things from that
A) Victoria is a name in the family
B) The dad’s statement is very much suggesting CM’s victimhood in how it’s phrased, so I’m even more surprised to see she’s not been inclined/persuaded to run with that in court as he’d basically handed it to her before she’d been captured!
The evidence presented so far does not suggest cc though does it?
 
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Well, no one has to come right out and say it.
‘If he really did commit the crime’ or words to that effect, kind of says a lot.
BTW if Myra Hindley was permitted to enrol for an OU degree then I’m pretty sure MG would be able to as well.
When he was returned to this country obviously.
It’s of course possible that we’re reading things differently on here but I personally haven’t seen anyone trying to justify his part in any of this.

Some may have doubts about whether his original conviction was sound, based on their understanding of the historic US legal system, but ultimately he was found guilty for that and hasn’t (to our knowledge) ever tried to get it quashed. People can still wonder, though, and the different experiences and observations on here is what makes it so interesting IMO.

My knowledge of the probation service is small but I imagine he was likely left to fend for himself as long as he was checking in to police/probation as required. After all, he was only back in the UK because he was deported. He didn’t choose to be here and who knows what was waiting for him. Suddenly in a country which is your home but you don’t know it at all.

He may have wanted to study but didn’t have the resources - financial, or time, or a quiet space to engage in an online course (or even internet access). He likely struggled to find work, somewhere to live, earn enough to survive. None of us know. But I don’t think any of it was easy or that he was likely offered much in the way of support.

Sorry, this has turned into a load of waffle I think but what I think I’m trying to say is that there can be questions about MG and his life - before CM and with her - and there can be empathy for a 14 year old black boy in the 80’s in Florida, and people can voice doubt and concerns, without those thoughts, feelings, discussions having any bearing whatsoever on his involvement with the awful, awful thing that happened to their baby and the older children too.

Everyone here feels that both of those parents should have stepped up for their children. Everyone here wants justice for that baby.
 
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It’s of course possible that we’re reading things differently on here but I personally haven’t seen anyone trying to justify his part in any of this.

Some may have doubts about whether his original conviction was sound, based on their understanding of the historic US legal system, but ultimately he was found guilty for that and hasn’t (to our knowledge) ever tried to get it quashed. People can still wonder, though, and the different experiences and observations on here is what makes it so interesting IMO.

My knowledge of the probation service is small but I imagine he was likely left to fend for himself as long as he was checking in to police/probation as required. After all, he was only back in the UK because he was deported. He didn’t choose to be here and who knows what was waiting for him. Suddenly in a country which is your home but you don’t know it at all.

He may have wanted to study but didn’t have the resources - financial, or time, or a quiet space to engage in an online course (or even internet access). He likely struggled to find work, somewhere to live, earn enough to survive. None of us know. But I don’t think any of it was easy or that he was likely offered much in the way of support.

Sorry, this has turned into a load of waffle I think but what I think I’m trying to say is that there can be questions about MG and his life - before CM and with her - and there can be empathy for a 14 year old black boy in the 80’s in Florida, and people can voice doubt and concerns, without those thoughts, feelings, discussions having any bearing whatsoever on his involvement with the awful, awful thing that happened to their baby and the older children too.

Everyone here feels that both of those parents should have stepped up for their children. Everyone here wants justice for that baby.
Jeez, a comment about him not appearing to try and improve his lot!
OK.
 
Thank you for sharing, two interesting things from that
A) Victoria is a name in the family
B) The dad’s statement is very much suggesting CM’s victimhood in how it’s phrased, so I’m even more surprised to see she’s not been inclined/persuaded to run with that in court as he’d basically handed it to her before she’d been captured!
Oh good spot on the name!

There’s a Charlotte in that picture too - one of the FB photos was COF, but I think that’s a boy.
The one with V as middle initial, I wonder now if that was after CM’s mum Virginie
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Jeez, a comment about him not appearing to try and improve his lot!
OK.
Genuinely not sure what you mean by this. What’s wrong with what I’ve said?

You’d said MG was poor and hard done by after people were discussing thoughts after your point about education and bettering himself.
You then said people were suggesting he wasn’t guilty - which is irrelevant in the real world and has no bearing on his part in this baby dying. I just posted about those points.
 
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@HistrionicSites was wondering if coercive control over CM by MG would / could be used as mitigation for her but I thought it would be raised as part of her defence (if it were to be raised at all) because it could mean a change in verdict for her.

So basically can coercive control be mitigation in sentencing?

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You can use anything to mitigate- literally anything…my dog ate my homework if you like. I’ve only caught snippets of this case but from what I’ve seen it’s not going well for the love birds so they may well use my dog ate my homework. Again from what I’ve seen of her pre-trial and from what I understand during the trial, she’s still head over heels in love with him so I very much doubt she will throw him under the bus to save herself, I’d have thought it much more likely she’d sacrifice herself for him? Would he use coercion???? Maybe. There could easily be a power play with regards to money/status in this relationship. We just don’t really know the dynamics do we? Has any of this information come out yet? Where are we up to has prosecution finished?

They won’t use the coercion during the trial, if she wanted to forward that she’d have said it in police interviews…unless she’s changed her mind mid trial and then she will have to change her plea (same applies for him). Again from what I understand they are rolling the dice and saying they are not guilty, their counsel(s) will be pushing to dismiss the “gross” element of the charge, focusing on the care they gave Victoria etc.That’s the only way they can play this, making the jury have reasonable doubt that the negligence wasn’t “gross”. I think they may well happily admit they were negligent…on reflection, because at the time they were just so concerned Victoria would be taken from them…I can see them playing this card especially if they put them on the stand.

They have plenty of time to decide on mitigation, that only comes in to play if they are found guilty, it’s used to reduce sentence.
 
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Oh good spot on the name!

There’s a Charlotte in that picture too - one of the FB photos was COF, but I think that’s a boy.
The one with V as middle initial, I wonder now if that was after CM’s mum Virginie
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Genuinely not sure what you mean by this. What’s wrong with what I’ve said?

You’d said MG was poor and hard done by after people were discussing thoughts after your point about education and bettering himself.
You then said people were suggesting he wasn’t guilty - which is irrelevant in the real world and has no bearing on his part in this baby dying. I just posted about those points.
Sorry, I’m not complaining about your post.
I’m just feeling a bit piled on for having the audacity to suggest that MG does not appear to have tried to improve his lot through education.
When in fact, he does not appear to have tried to improve his lot through education.
 
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Sorry, I’m not complaining about your post.
I’m just feeling a bit piled on for having the audacity to suggest that MG does not appear to have tried to improve his lot through education.
When in fact, he does not appear to have tried to improve his lot through education.
I can understand that ❤
I think everyone’s coming to the same point, but from different directions
 
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Yes, they can elaborate or make suggestions to bring in doubt for the jury, but your post said that CM’s were lying.
From my own very small amount of experience with defence solicitors they piece together a story that could fit with the evidence and “suggest” this, the client plays along. They know this isn’t the truth and so therefore it’s a lie….
They absolutely would not have asked CM for a detailed version of what happened. They wouldn’t have asked her anything much at all except if any more evidence was going to come up that contradicts the statement.
If they have just written a story to best get her off based on the evidence in front of them. I do personally consider this lying.

Dunno if it’s been said as I’m catching up but, I noticed they were seen on CCTV etc getting food in the early days. Constance would have been breastfeeding and needing to eat to keep up her milk. Then when Victoria had died they were just scavenging out of bins because it was no longer important. So in a small, albeit deranged, way they put baby first, breaking cover so CM could eat. I just don’t know why, if they weren’t guilty of causing her death through neglect, they stayed hidden after she had died.
I think I heard on the podcast that Constance said in her interviews they were not hiding to begin with as nobody was looking for them. Then the baby was born and they had to move every 36(?) hours so that no local authority would have jurisdiction for the baby to take her away. They were not running from police but local authority according to her when staying in hotels etc. I do believe this as it seems like she had been researching a bit from her “Hiding a birth is not an arrest-able offence” line. Then they found out they were “wanted” and people were recognising them constantly and so they couldn’t risk going to a bank or spending all their money on food. So they had £400 (?) and no idea how long they would need to last on that.

Would we be having such deep debate about, trauma, detachment, lurve etc if she was from a council estate? Or would we just be saying ‘scum’?
I was brought up in a council house btw.
Agree! People try so hard to “understand” abusive mothers because it feels unnatural for someone you look at and think of as ‘the same as you’ to have done this…. We can look down on “rough council estates” because we are better than them and WE would never do such a thing…
Also if CM didn’t go on the run and it was just the violent sex offender black man Daddy Bear that went on the run in tents in below-zero temperatures with the baby sometimes in just a nappy, sometimes only a thin baby grow would we be insisting it was out of love? Baby turned up dead…. People wouldn’t be so insistent this was love. It would clearly be seen as power then.
Yet when it looks like the mother is not caring for the baby, laying it on the side in a kebab shop? Roughly handling her in public into the stroller and the baby turning up dead and still this women is just worried about her husband being arrested?
“She must have loved her”
Why must she? Many parents do not love their children. They don’t all neglect them to death and then carry their corpse around rotting to mush in a Lidl carrier bag.
 
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Sorry, I’m not complaining about your post.
I’m just feeling a bit piled on for having the audacity to suggest that MG does not appear to have tried to improve his lot through education.
When in fact, he does not appear to have tried to improve his lot through education.
No one is piling on you.
I was trying to point out for some it isn't easy to just improve your lot. You made it sound so simple and to me, it looked like you were not thinking of all the obstacles he'd have to overcome to improve his lot.
Sorry if I made you feel crap. This thread is very sensitive due to the nature of the crime and I should have taken that into account.
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I actually think if she was poor from a council estate I'd probably feel more sorry for her. I feel like I need to make this clear, I do not feel sorry for her one bit. I feel sorry for Victoria.
If she was from a council estate I would maybe understand that she didn't have the choices available to her that CM has, because money solves most problems.
 
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