Constance Marten and Mark Gordon #7

[Rippedjeanmaybe]

I was in Nando’s earlier and there was a dad and a little boy (around 2.5-3 years) on the next table.
The dad was so attentive to his child, so patient, he was saying to his son, “who’s daddy’s best friend” and “I love you so much”. It broke me (in a good way).

It’s so alien to me, my dad did not love me and showed mostly contempt towards me and my mum does love me in her own way, but has never really shown it. I never really smiled or laughed as a child and then I realised as an adult, it’s because they never did. My upbringing was mental health issues and alcohol abuse.

I never realise parents like the dad in Nando’s exist because I didn’t see it myself. This is why I don’t want children. I wouldn’t know how to love them in the right way because I never saw it myself. The world would be a better place if more people could recognise that they will never be able to parent.

 

[Aberscot]

She is crying now

Marten said: "No. there is literally nothing I wouldn’t do for my children."

Well apart from turn up and see them in contact centre maybe.

 

[pommobear]

Trouble is obstetric emergencies are not always predictable in advance.

I think unless you've suffered one (I have) it can be a bit of an abstract concept and people focus quite heavily on the "experience" of giving birth rather than the fact it is a medical event that, before modern medicine, was extremely dangerous.
---

Yeh, it was scary!
Congratulations on your soon to be grandchild.
The car birth wasn’t my first either.
As soon as the blue line showed on the test for my next, I was booking a room at the hospital.
First twinge, right in there!
Each to their own but… home or car birth, never again for me.

I'm pregnant at the moment and already booked in my c section. My mum is very much the natural birth in a meadow type and was horrified.

She said "don't you want to experience labour again?". I'm like nope, I would rather have a threesome with Boris Johnson and Donald Trump, whilst being serenaded by Sam Smith.

 

[HotesTilaire]

Thank you to all the podcast transcribers!
my hot take (I’m running a fever and am freezing in my giant warm bed, thank Christ I don’t live in a £30 tent!)
Napier running away from it all to Australia, being so overcome with emotion (thinking about whales in the ocean?) that he cried for a week, then coming back but living in a lorry sounds a bit like his “collapsed laughing in Starbucks, met a random guy and decided to live in a tent” daughter, to me.

I don’t think the Toots Apple fell far from the Napier tree.

 

[Lucyxxxx]

Me seeing MG is now not testifying.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

Nothing I wouldn’t do.

Except live somewhere with walls.
Except leave a DV situation (not shaming here as I know it’s not that simple sometimes)
Except engage with services to ensure a safe home.

 

[mightytwins]

I don't think the thread needs to turn into a whole freebirth/homebirth/hospital birth debate! I reckon we can all agree the number of risks they took and the lack of preparation for the birth is far beyond anything even the hippiest dippiest mums would consider and put their baby's life at risk.

 

[jammybee]

I was in Nando’s earlier and there was a dad and a little boy (around 2.5-3 years) on the next table.
The dad was so attentive to his child, so patient, he was saying to his son, “who’s daddy’s best friend” and “I love you so much”. It broke me (in a good way).

It’s so alien to me, my dad did not love me and showed mostly contempt towards me and my mum does love me in her own way, but has never really shown it. I never really smiled or laughed as a child and then I realised as an adult, it’s because they never did. My upbringing was mental health issues and alcohol abuse.

I never realise parents like the dad in Nando’s exist because I didn’t see it myself. This is why I don’t want children. I wouldn’t know how to love them in the right way because I never saw it myself. The world would be a better place if more people could recognise that they will never be able to parent.

Hey I wasn’t wanted, I was left alone all the time and I have no good memories from childhood - but when I had my babies, honestly I just showered love on them and I seem to have done a decent job they’re great grown ups you know what NOT to do xx

 

[MedeaWho]

Imagine Argos reporting though?

- Mark Gordon is now testifying
- We are now taking a morning break
- Mark Gordon is continuing his testimony
- Mark Gordon has now finished his testimony
- We are now going for lunch

 

[Lynn’ssnazzycardigan]

I had my second son in my neighbour’s car, not through choice. Neither my neighbour nor my husband knew how to deliver a baby. My neighbour did know how to put his foot down on the accelerator though.
I can confirm, it was scary, and messy. Luckily the car seats were vinyl
I can’t confirm if either of them were first aiders.

Sorry to ask but, did your neighbour register the birth?

 

[FFS_stopit]

Surely the Airbnb would've had a mattress protector already on the bed?! I mean, don't people just...do this? I always have a really good mattress protector on my bed, otherwise how do you clean up after wild sex spillages?! I also have mattress protectors on my kids' beds, because when you're young, you ALWAYS have period accidents. It's not like the old days where your only option was a crinkly, plastic sheet. Mattress protectors should be the law.

This is probably totally off topic so I’m going to attempt to put it behind a spoiler if I can work out how

Spoiler: Gross Mattress cleaning in holiday lets

.
I do changeovers for a few local cottages and a few years ago a guest very sadly died in one of the beds (he was 95, natural causes.. old age). The family (paying guests) had done most of the clean up but I had to go in and get the property ready for the next lot. The local doctor leant me her carpet cleaner… the mess from bodily fluids was unlike anything I’d ever seen before. It still makes me feel a bit sick to think about it. I had no idea beforehand of how much fluid exits a body after death

Anyway, the mattress had a protector on, but just a dust one, not waterproof. I asked the owners of the property what they would like me to do about the mattress and the duvet (both completely soaked through) and they asked me to wash the duvet and flip the mattress. When I explained that the fluid had gone all the way through the mattress they said to give it a once over with the carpet cleaner and put it on its side to air out thankfully the next guests weren’t in for a few days but the next guests were THE OWNERS who slept on that mattress knowing what had happened and continue to use it and let their paying guests sleep on it I still think about it every time I change that bed!! all that to say… don’t assume a holiday let would just replace the mattress

 

[lucylucyapplejuicy]

I’ve been lurking and reading through all the threads, have finally finished! Few thoughts/info I’ve found (some things we’ve moved on from but all related to the case so I hope that’s ok?)

1. re cremation/burial. The woods/allotments are near to my friends house, I’ve been for a walk in them. The woods are small and in parts back onto houses, there are dog walkers etc there all the time. The allotments are too (there’s this funny group of eco houses near there, I can’t remember exactly, my friend pointed them out) . Smoke going on long enough and caused by petrol (so more smelly than a normal allotment fire) would be noticed. Digging for long enough would risk being discovered. There are sometimes homeless people camping in the woods though (I actually saw a tent and asked her, I was surprised but clearly I’m a bit naive!)

2. The assumed name MG gave (when he was claiming to be ‘a friend’ during CM Labour), was James Aymer, that’s CM’s brother-in-law/best friend/was his best man https://www.vogue.com/slideshow/a-romantic-late-summer-wedding-in-dorset-england This vogue article from CMs brother’s wedding also highlights just how much CM strayed from her upbringing

3. MG strikes me from his interviews as someone who is completely insufferable, so does CM (from her arrest). He’s the sort of bloke you’d regret getting into a conversation at the pub with, convinced he’s right about ’facts’ when he’s very wrong. She’s very arrogant ‘I know my rights’ ‘I know what I’m entitled to’ etc

4. I bf both my kids, and was very unwell after one of the births (nearly died at one point) I almost fell asleep whilst feeding multiple times but always startled awake. Also surely if you did fall asleep, in a tent you’re unsupported, wouldn’t you slump into a lying position?

5. Even if Victoria died as CM says, the circumstances were exactly those that she’d been explicitly told by SW were not safe or suitable to have a newborn in. So there’s documented evidence she definitely knew better (I don’t think the SW report mentioned him being told), which to my understanding of what people have said means that would come under GNM?

 

[ohdoris]

Has anyone watched Little Boy Blue about the murder of Rhys Jones in Liverpool? The accused & their families behaved appallingly in court & the judge left them to it, just to show the jury & the gallery their true personalities & attitude towards such a serious case. None of the sentencing went in their favour. Let’s hope this does the same. Vile pair.

 

[rosieflowers]

It did say in the Mail podcast that they were offered a video link from the hospital but they declined this. She came back the next day and was upset to be refused access because she refused the COVID test. I think there is some severe paranoid delusion/ shared delusions going on with regard to technology, medical and government/ SS intrusion etc. Probably not helped by her family getting PIs on them etc... and the constant monitoring of him as a SO.. and then the (totally warranted) SS intervention. I think it was a terrible cocktail - add in her being pregnant or PP for five years non stop, the insanity that was COVID etc and there may even be some postpartum psychosis etc.

Others' comments on MG almost putting the blame on her - I can totally see that happening. I think he is way more cynical than her and would do anything to avoid jail/ consequences etc and was along for the ride, where as she may be the real source of the delusions etc.

The Mail podcast had a pretty clear timeline of the other children and the SS intervention which answers some of the questions people have had above, I have put it in a spoiler below as v. long

Spoiler: Detailed (ish) history of the four children and SS involvement

FF

• Around 2017 – CM went to hospital pregnant with FF apparently using her own name. Concerns raised because no prior antenatal care sought. Her and MG had been living in a campervan nearby. The national hospital alert put out due to concerns
• Next sought hospital attention in the early stages of labour with FF. This is the fake Irish traveller incident. She said she was no longer with the father of the baby and that MG was a friend. (I think they did this because of his history) They had nothing for the baby at birth.
• A social worker later ascertained their identity from the national hospital alert above and made contact with them. CM said they had been evicted from their flat and were living in the camper van, and then later started living in the tent. She said she was able to meet the needs of the baby.
• They had been living in the tent which CM said had been her idea. They promised to engage with SS and she said she had clothes and nappies for the baby but was told this wasn’t enough. SS told her to get in touch with her family and find accommodation. They were told a court order would be sought if they were unable to find suitable accommodation
• CM says about the ‘alternate lifestyle’
• An interim care order was made and baby was placed in a number of temporary mother and baby placements.
• In these, the warnings about safe sleeping were made – especially about baby sleeping on CM’s chest
• Supervision order made – allowing them to care for FF under supervision of FF
• A few weeks later – social worker said baby gaining weight and bonding well with CM, who was described as ‘loving and patient’
• 
  
• GG
• 
  
• Soon after – they moved to a different part of the country and child GG born
• Around this time the ‘falling from window’ incident which a family court judge later concluded was an incident of DV
• Aroudn this time – parents also avoided an SS investigation into the wellbeing of the children
• So after this incident – legal proceedings started with an application for wardship made by CM’s father Napier
• Care proceedings also started by LA for both FF and GG
• 
  
• HH
• 
  
• During the course of the above care proceedings, third child HH born
• Emergency Protection Order put in place for HH. When born, HH was placed in a residential assessment unit with CM, with MG to join later
• At some point, FF and GG were placed into care with CM and MG allowed supervised contact

II

• She self referred to a midwife when heavily pregnant
• She was referred for an urgent antenatal scan but she didn’t attend, instead emailing to say she had arranged a private scan and would email the results but never did this
• Unplanned visit by a social worker when CM hid her body behind the door of their house ‘don’t be draconian’
• A few days after the unplanned visit – CM said she had private midwife care.
• II was born at full term with no medical concerns
• Soon after II born – couple said they were leaving hospital to attend a court hearing for older children. They were offered a video link from hospital but declined this.
• The next day CM returned and refused access because she refused to take a COVID test
• 
  
• The family court ultimately concluded the four children would be adopted because of concerns around
• 
  
• Lack of preparation
• Deliberate evasion of local authority investigations
• The incident of domestic violence
• Children exposed to serious physical violence between the parents
• Lack of consistency at contact sessions including a four month gap at one point

 

[MavisBeacon]

I suspect there's a whole load of stuff that can't be reported. The Private Eye podcast was talking about this the other day, particularly how readers get so frustrated about the lack of information about a court case when in fact it cannot be reported publicly and there are severe penalties for doing so. They have a juicy story about Lucy Letby ready to go but can't publish it because of the ongoing legal proceedings.

 

[MmmB777]

Except take your freezing cold crying newborn somewhere warm or check she was actually ok at any point. Vile. I hope prosecution rip her a new one.

 

[Emsie]

I would describe my parenting style as "don't house my babies in tents". Or "don't suffocate my babies".
CM doesn't have a parenting style as she isn't a parent. She has not parented anyone. She has given birth.

 

[KatieMorag]

Oh fuck off Constance with the 'There's nothing I wouldn't do for my children.'

She wouldn't do a fucking Covid test.

And that's before we get started on any of the things she wouldn't do for Victoria - like make sure she stayed alive.

 

[Mrsell]

She is absolutely full of shit. She could literally say anything up there couldn't she but where is the proof of any of this with her family?

I know there's been talk on this thread before about her family etc but honestly reading between the lines I'd say she's been a nightmare little rich girl wanting to party and put herself in dangerous situations. Her family have put sanctions in place yo try and curb her self destruction I.e. limiting her funds etc. She's then met that absolute waste of space and they've got the means and ability to keep tabs on her via PIs (say what you want but if I was rich and found out my daughter was knocked up and under the control of a convicted violent rapist I too would make sure they BOTH knew I was keeping an eye on things. If subsequently I found out the bastard had pushed my pregnant daughter out of a window in front of my grandchild I too would have done what her father did).
Theres a lot that's not been said here but there's no evidence she's been poorly treated by her family or any reasoning that her brother's were treated differently because of anything other than that she was unable to act in a reasonable way! On the balance of things I'd say they were right nit to give her all the money to piss away cos she's gone through 50 grand with nothing to show for it I 3months. Plus clearly not capable of making rational decisions.

There's a lot not being said that will come out after I believe

 

[pommobear]

Giving birth is still dangerous, whether in hospital or at home. Modern medicine just means that more women and their babies survive now, but not always.

Oh yes, it totally is. It's why I get a bit snarky when the hard-core natural birthing advocates say things like "your body knows what it's doing" or "women have been doing this for thousands of years". Well no, actually, mine didn't, and yes they have, and they died in their thousands doing it as well.

Obviously it's not even slightly on the same level as MG and CM but I think it's a leaf on the same tree, as it were.